Weekly Debrief

Goodbye sweet spot :D

Comments

  • DingoKillr
    3647 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    CnConrad wrote: »
    So Stodeh made a video of his impressions, and I think he makes a lot of good points.

    One major contribution of his video was to let us know that actually assist counts as kill now starts at 60. That will make a lot of people feel much happier about their contribution being counted into their stats :)



    He is saying some things like everyone played scout in bf1. It was the least used class.

    The only saving Grace is the assist counts as kill being at 60% that will be a big help.

    Btw being that good, it's kind of hard for him to speak for the regular player. He is easily 5+ times as good of a sniper as a normal player is.
    Just to highlight from what I have heard/seen from YouTuber or Dev compared to BF1
    - Glint remains
    - Velocity is about the same
    - Drop appears shorter
    - Damage is lower
    - No sweet spot
    - Head hit box is 30% bigger
    - Scoped rifles have a higher ADS time
    - Unscoped rifles have a lower ADS time
    - Swapping to pistol takes longer
    - No suppression sway
    - Slight blur on scope when moving. Clears when still.

    Here are other issue.
    - SMG and Pistol appear to be accurate at much greater range
    - SLR will have no SIPS and have higher ROF, means longer range accuracy

    Your right I always find it interesting when top players in their field say something is easy or boring while often staying to 1 thing. Most rifle users in BF1 have below 40% accuracy. Skill, hardware and network contribute to that however if it was so easy skill wise that should be higher.

    I may not be the best player but at this point it appears DICE has lowered the skill floor of Pistol, SMG and SLR while increasing it for Rifles, unless bigger changes are coming Recon paratrooper is going to be the most popular Recon archetype.

    How much Health or Ammo is available/needed I will wait and see to public release as we don't know other archetypes, vehicle or squad calls.
  • trip1ex
    4879 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    CnConrad wrote: »
    trip1ex wrote: »
    CnConrad wrote: »
    trip1ex wrote: »
    plliadidas wrote: »
    I think they nerfed damage expecting everyone to be running around not at full health because let’s face it the average player isn’t going to run around finding a medic to go back to full health. And they made bigger headshot box to try to compensate for that forgot who said it but they also bumped up damage multiplier for headshots



    Thus, it remains a net nerf to an already underperforming weapon class.

    Jumping to conclusions. It's a different game. IT's not BF1.

    That makes no sense. It's a battlefield game, I have played every battlefield game in the last decade. I know what a battlefield game will be.


    Medic rifles with 3 hit kills and zero rbd coupled with 60 damage body shots for bolt action rifle mean that the bolt actions will underperform under all cases except hill humping.


    If dice wishes to encourage hill humping, so be it. But as of right now there is zero reason to get closer than 100 m from any objective with a bolt action.

    This is coming from someone who when he sniped mainly used with the m95. So I didn't lean on the sweet spot crutch, but it did a great job of encouraging objective play for recon.

    lol perfect example of jumping to wild conclusions.

    How? Honestly asking.

    You say "jumping to wild conclusions" but you provide zero evidence that I am incorrect. You are not even making a point. All evidence points to what I said as being true and your only argument is there may be new magical information we don't know.

    But, you can't even manage to come up with even conjecture of how what I said may not be true.


    Merely stating lol I front of your lack of argument does nothing to help.


    If gun a is better than gun b at all ranges other than extremely long. Logic dictates that gun b will mainly be used at extremely long ranges.
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    trip1ex wrote: »
    CnConrad wrote: »
    trip1ex wrote: »
    CnConrad wrote: »
    trip1ex wrote: »
    plliadidas wrote: »
    I think they nerfed damage expecting everyone to be running around not at full health because let’s face it the average player isn’t going to run around finding a medic to go back to full health. And they made bigger headshot box to try to compensate for that forgot who said it but they also bumped up damage multiplier for headshots



    Thus, it remains a net nerf to an already underperforming weapon class.

    Jumping to conclusions. It's a different game. IT's not BF1.

    That makes no sense. It's a battlefield game, I have played every battlefield game in the last decade. I know what a battlefield game will be.


    Medic rifles with 3 hit kills and zero rbd coupled with 60 damage body shots for bolt action rifle mean that the bolt actions will underperform under all cases except hill humping.


    If dice wishes to encourage hill humping, so be it. But as of right now there is zero reason to get closer than 100 m from any objective with a bolt action.

    This is coming from someone who when he sniped mainly used with the m95. So I didn't lean on the sweet spot crutch, but it did a great job of encouraging objective play for recon.

    lol perfect example of jumping to wild conclusions.

    How? Honestly asking.

    You say "jumping to wild conclusions" but you provide zero evidence that I am incorrect. You are not even making a point. All evidence points to what I said as being true and your only argument is there may be new magical information we don't know.

    But, you can't even manage to come up with even conjecture of how what I said may not be true.


    Merely stating lol I front of your lack of argument does nothing to help.


    If gun a is better than gun b at all ranges other than extremely long. Logic dictates that gun b will mainly be used at extremely long ranges.

    How isn't your post a jump to wild conclusions??!?!? Have you played BFV? Do you know all the details regarding all the classes? Do you know every detail regarding every weapon? Have you secretly been playtesting the game for the past 4 months? ARe you unaware it's pre-Alpha and still 4 months from release? Do you know the classes/weapons and relationships between the classes are not identical to BF1?

    I think the answer to all those is no so to me it is a question of how you could possibly think your post are nothing but massive jumps to wild conclusions!?!??!
    For some reason this reminds me from dialogue from Ace Attorney games.
    It is easier to prevent a disaster before the game releases based on what data we have and our experience with BF games and how players act in them than to wait until later in the development cycle or after the release where the damage might already be done and DICE might just say " Sorry guys we did not see that coming (derp) we are sorry and we will try to make the next game better on that regard, have fun double/triple taping people with perfectly accurate medic rifles in BFV in the meantime".

    lol they have way way more data than you the armchair quarterback sitting at home has. Hell they hired 2 pro gamers even to help with the thing. And you haven't even played the game or know half of what's in the game. Nevermind it is still 4 months before release and being playtested daily I'm sure.

    but listen to the nubs sitting in their underwear at home crying at anything said or seen on the internets!?!?!?!
    give me a break.

  • VindictiV_V
    1347 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited June 2018
    CnConrad wrote: »
    So Stodeh made a video of his impressions, and I think he makes a lot of good points.

    One major contribution of his video was to let us know that actually assist counts as kill now starts at 60. That will make a lot of people feel much happier about their contribution being counted into their stats :)



    It was the least used class.

    STOP saying that bs. Scout class was NEVER the least used class. Go to https://battlefieldtracker.com/bf1/weapons and sort by Time Spent. You'll see it's actually support class that has ALWAYS been the least played class.

    Edit: as of today June 15th, scout was actually the second most used class.
  • Sixclicks
    5075 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    So from that video, they're trying to encourage playing more aggressively since you need to move up with your team to stay supplied or healed, but... instead you can just camp by a supply box. Also, slower scope times and pistol swap times only further discourage playing aggressively. If you don't get a headshot on your first shot, prepare to die.

    So again, I don't see a reason not to main medic instead. Faster TTK. Still has good range performance. Can keep self at 100% health all the time.
  • VindictiV_V
    1347 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited June 2018
    Sixclicks wrote: »
    So from that video, they're trying to encourage playing more aggressively since you need to move up with your team to stay supplied or healed, but... instead you can just camp by a supply box. Also, slower scope times and pistol swap times only further discourage playing aggressively. If you don't get a headshot on your first shot, prepare to die.

    So again, I don't see a reason not to main medic instead. Faster TTK. Still has good range performance. Can keep self at 100% health all the time.

    Just wanted to address one of your point (that I hear often as well) about camping near a supply crate. The issue in camping near one is you're not contributing anything to your team nor are you getting points/kills (or not that many at least) nor capping anything so why would you just camp there? If you are afraid of campers near supply crates, simply put a cooldown so after using a certain crate, you can't use it with your current life for X amount of time. So either you die before you can use it again or you either find another crate or teamates to resupply/heal you or you wait for the cooldown to be over.
  • gpkgpk
    270 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    CnConrad wrote: »
    [...]
    He is saying some things like everyone played scout in bf1. It was the least used class.
    [...]
    Uh I don't know where you played, but servers were infested w/ snipers, most of em just camping far from anywhere helpful. Think B rock bridge area on Sinai or C hill on Empire's , aka "sniper hill".
    So much so that many ppl commented on how it would be helpful to put a limit to how many snipers one team can have.



  • Sixclicks
    5075 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited June 2018
    gpkgpk wrote: »
    CnConrad wrote: »
    [...]
    He is saying some things like everyone played scout in bf1. It was the least used class.
    [...]
    Uh I don't know where you played, but servers were infested w/ snipers, most of em just camping far from anywhere helpful. Think B rock bridge area on Sinai or C hill on Empire's , aka "sniper hill".
    So much so that many ppl commented on how it would be helpful to put a limit to how many snipers one team can have.



    Certain maps obviously favored scouts. Such as the ones you mentioned. Just like maps like Fort De Vaux and Prise De Tahure heavily favored assault.

    Assault was still the most played regardless because it's a very strong class and easy to play as well.
  • Megr1m
    1 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited June 2018
    Bah, fluffing DICE, two steps forward, one-and-a-half steps back. Introduce a good mechanic to make ironsight and slow rof rifles viable, then immediately take it out. I guess someone needs to be the spawn beacon strumpet =/

    At least now the w+m1 nerds will be happy.
  • vulpesveritas
    114 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    CnConrad wrote: »
    So Stodeh made a video of his impressions, and I think he makes a lot of good points.

    One major contribution of his video was to let us know that actually assist counts as kill now starts at 60. That will make a lot of people feel much happier about their contribution being counted into their stats :)



    It was the least used class.

    STOP saying that bs. Scout class was NEVER the least used class. Go to https://battlefieldtracker.com/bf1/weapons and sort by Time Spent. You'll see it's actually support class that has ALWAYS been the least played class.

    Edit: as of today June 15th, scout was actually the second most used class.

    No, but it is the second least used class historically, and the second least effective in kills.

    And let's look at kills... 25% Assault, 22% Medic, 15% Scout, 13% Support (the remaining 10% is split between sidearms, grenades, and gadgets. Numbers are also inflated as they also count assists-count-as-kills as kills)

    As far as time spent, they're also second least used, with 22.5% used by assault (SMG+Shotgun), 21% used by medics, 19% scout, 16% support. (as above, other things you can carry affect use time)

    In terms of kills to use ratio,
    Assaults rank 1.11
    Medics rank 1.04
    Scouts rank 0.78
    Supports rank 0.81

    Or, in other words, scouts are the least effective for time spent class in game, by the numbers.

    So yeah, Scouts need a buff, not the nerf they seem to be getting.
  • LakolasWhardon
    46 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Boo hiss. I liked having a different rifle for every situation.

    I agree that the BF4 bolt actions were all useless from each other. If headshots are the only thing that matters, there is literally no point to having 11+ rifles in the game. And having the only differences be things like ammo capacity and reload speed will make it to where there is 1 superior rifle and all others will remain untouched. BF4 bolt actions were boring, I don't want a repeat of that.
  • MegaloDorian
    910 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    gpkgpk wrote: »
    Sweetspot was the worst mechanic in BF1, IDK how it made it in and lasted unmodified as long as it did. (Prolly Westrollie liked it).
    Glad it is gone, maybe we won't see 1/3rd of the team camping far away from objectives taking potshots and helping their team lose.

    I'm still waiting for somebody to show me this specific rifle that has a "sweet spot" that encourages people to camp "far away" from the objectives. I don't believe it exists in my game. . .
  • Alphazetamu
    692 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    gpkgpk wrote: »
    Sweetspot was the worst mechanic in BF1, IDK how it made it in and lasted unmodified as long as it did. (Prolly Westrollie liked it).
    Glad it is gone, maybe we won't see 1/3rd of the team camping far away from objectives taking potshots and helping their team lose.

    I'm still waiting for somebody to show me this specific rifle that has a "sweet spot" that encourages people to camp "far away" from the objectives. I don't believe it exists in my game. . .

    Quoted for truth. But you gotta know that in the mindset of a hellriegel scrub, "camping far" means out of range of their hellriegelz, you know, like, 25m. It's obviously so unfair that anyone should be out of range of their hellriegelz.
  • disposalist
    8665 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    edited June 2018
    In terms of kills to use ratio,
    Assaults rank 1.11
    Medics rank 1.04
    Scouts rank 0.78
    Supports rank 0.81

    Or, in other words, scouts are the least effective for time spent class in game, by the numbers.

    So yeah, Scouts need a buff, not the nerf they seem to be getting.
    It's not that simple. Yes, scouts are the least effective. But is kills per minute the best measure of *effective*? And what is the *reason* for the low kills with scout rifles?

    In my humble opinion the reason is not that the rifles need a buff, it's because of who chooses scout and why.

    The reason people think scout is so heavily used is, *often*, near the end of the game when they are losing and can't push objectives they look at the scoreboard and see half the team is scouts.

    I believe there's two reasons for this. 1) Noobs pick a sniper rifle because they can get some 'safe' kills. They get very few kills, but they die less. 2) When blueberries begin to get smashed in heavy combat on objectives, they pick a sniper rifle and back off making the situation worse.

    Scouting is of course also popular with some good players, but in nowhere near the numbers of medic and assault, because they are more challenging to get the best out of in a wide variety of situations.

    Now, in BF5, does DICE want to encourage more sniping by making the rifles better? Or do they want to encourage scouts that join in more with the team by giving them group gadgets and utility ability and nerfing the long-range capability of sniper rifles?

    Me, I'm looking forward to scouts actually getting into the action more and actively PTFOing with the team.

    Bring back Recon. Scouts should be *ahead* of the squad or at least flanking, not 500m behind them.
  • vulpesveritas
    114 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    edited June 2018
    In terms of kills to use ratio,
    Assaults rank 1.11
    Medics rank 1.04
    Scouts rank 0.78
    Supports rank 0.81

    Or, in other words, scouts are the least effective for time spent class in game, by the numbers.

    So yeah, Scouts need a buff, not the nerf they seem to be getting.
    It's not that simple. Yes, scouts are the least effective. But is kills per minute the best measure of *effective*? And what is the *reason* for the low kills with scout rifles?

    In my humble opinion the reason is not that the rifles need a buff, it's because of who chooses scout and why.

    The reason people think scout is so heavily used is, *often*, near the end of the game when they are losing and can't push objectives they look at the scoreboard and see half the team is scouts.

    I believe there's two reasons for this. 1) Noobs pick a sniper rifle because they can get some 'safe' kills. They get very few kills, but they die less. 2) When blueberries begin to get smashed in heavy combat on objectives, they pick a sniper rifle and back off making the situation worse.

    Scouting is of course also popular with some good players, but in nowhere near the numbers of medic and assault, because they are more challenging to get the best out of in a wide variety of situations.

    Now, in BF5, does DICE want to encourage more sniping by making the rifles better? Or do they want to encourage scouts that join in more with the team by giving them group gadgets and utility ability and nerfing the long-range capability of sniper rifles?

    Me, I'm looking forward to scouts actually getting into the action more and actively PTFOing with the team.

    Bring back Recon. Scouts should be *ahead* of the squad or at least flanking, not 500m behind them.


    Then give recons more close ranged weapons across the board - not just certain subclasses/specializations. That's a better way to ensure they are PTFOing with the team, give them infantry rifles and shotguns or something, then restrict scopes to a subclass.

    That would be a better way to handle the class, rather than nerfing the class's primary weapon even further to where even fewer people can be even mediocre with the class.

    Edit: Also, again, sweet spots are another way to encourage closer-range gunplay, as well as differentiates bolt action rifles for one another, so as a mechanic it does actually encourage closer range scouting, given the majority of bolt action rifles have sweet spot ranges below 100m in BF1.
  • Alphazetamu
    692 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    edited June 2018
    Me, I'm looking forward to scouts actually getting into the action more and actively PTFOing with the team.

    I agree with a lot of what you say, but just on this point, I don't think the current nerf to scout primaries and also to pistol swapping is going to have the effect you're hoping for. The bads who have given up the fight will still fall back to camping, no matter what, because they're primary motivation is to not die, whereas a scout up close will get wrecked by just about every enemy weapon (except for the twitch headshotters, which you've said already you don't like as a basis of gameplay)
  • vulpesveritas
    114 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    DICE, I hate your forums, locking down my posts for moderator approval when I go to make a clarification edit.



    Ahem, on topic, in case my original post takes too long to return to be relavant, @disposalist ;

    If you want scouts to PTFO, then there are better ways to encourage them than nerfing their primary weapon into near unuseability, (or more accurately, the least user-friendly, least effective in most encouters)

    Examples include (but are not limited to)
    Restricting scopes to a subclass, and granting iron sight rifles better performance at close range.
    Retaining sweet spots, but restricting all sweet spots within 100m.
    Giving scouts shotguns, so they retain their high damage - low margin for error style of play, but have a dedicated close range option.
    Remove scope glint while adjusting bullet trajectory, instead of a flat drop rate, let bullets fly more or less straight to 75m or so, then drop hard, encouraging hit-and-run stealthy, medium range gun play, and still requiring said scout to line up a headshot for a one hit kill, but without the glare giving away their position.
  • disposalist
    8665 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    DICE, I hate your forums, locking down my posts for moderator approval when I go to make a clarification edit.



    Ahem, on topic, in case my original post takes too long to return to be relavant, @disposalist ;

    If you want scouts to PTFO, then there are better ways to encourage them than nerfing their primary weapon into near unuseability, (or more accurately, the least user-friendly, least effective in most encouters)

    Examples include (but are not limited to)
    Restricting scopes to a subclass, and granting iron sight rifles better performance at close range.
    Retaining sweet spots, but restricting all sweet spots within 100m.
    Giving scouts shotguns, so they retain their high damage - low margin for error style of play, but have a dedicated close range option.
    Remove scope glint while adjusting bullet trajectory, instead of a flat drop rate, let bullets fly more or less straight to 75m or so, then drop hard, encouraging hit-and-run stealthy, medium range gun play, and still requiring said scout to line up a headshot for a one hit kill, but without the glare giving away their position.
    Sure, I didn't mean nerf all their primaries, just the ones that encourage them to sit out and snipe all day.
  • disposalist
    8665 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    Me, I'm looking forward to scouts actually getting into the action more and actively PTFOing with the team.
    I agree with a lot of what you say, but just on this point, I don't think the current nerf to scout primaries and also to pistol swapping is going to have the effect you're hoping for. The bads who have given up the fight will still fall back to camping, no matter what, because they're primary motivation is to not die, whereas a scout up close will get wrecked by just about every enemy weapon (except for the twitch headshotters, which you've said already you don't like as a basis of gameplay)
    Nerfing *all* primaries, no. Just the snipe-focused rifles. Pistol swap speed nerf doesn't help either, no.
  • Alphazetamu
    692 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    Me, I'm looking forward to scouts actually getting into the action more and actively PTFOing with the team.
    I agree with a lot of what you say, but just on this point, I don't think the current nerf to scout primaries and also to pistol swapping is going to have the effect you're hoping for. The bads who have given up the fight will still fall back to camping, no matter what, because they're primary motivation is to not die, whereas a scout up close will get wrecked by just about every enemy weapon (except for the twitch headshotters, which you've said already you don't like as a basis of gameplay)
    Nerfing *all* primaries, no. Just the snipe-focused rifles. Pistol swap speed nerf doesn't help either, no.

    I agree with you, but sadly that's not what we've seen happen :|
  • disposalist
    8665 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    Me, I'm looking forward to scouts actually getting into the action more and actively PTFOing with the team.
    I agree with a lot of what you say, but just on this point, I don't think the current nerf to scout primaries and also to pistol swapping is going to have the effect you're hoping for. The bads who have given up the fight will still fall back to camping, no matter what, because they're primary motivation is to not die, whereas a scout up close will get wrecked by just about every enemy weapon (except for the twitch headshotters, which you've said already you don't like as a basis of gameplay)
    Nerfing *all* primaries, no. Just the snipe-focused rifles. Pistol swap speed nerf doesn't help either, no.
    I agree with you, but sadly that's not what we've seen happen :|
    It's pre-alpha. There's a lot of time to make suggestions. If I'm in the Alpha, I'll certainly be giving feedback.
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