Gunplay feels in a way more casual than ever

«13
SWE-Androctonus
537 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
I have found that magdump is the most effective way to kill an oponent even at longer ranges. There is no SIPS what so ever, for probably the first 10 bullets. More than enough bullets for a kill. And everybody talks about "skillfull" gunplay. Haven't found anything skillfull about the gunplay yet. Satisfying to some extent, yes, but I don't agree with the "hold mb1" meta right now.

Ok att close to medium ranges, but single fire, 2-3 bullet bursts should be more effective at range. That's not the case right now.

I don't think that more recoil fixes this. You can always control the recoil. Something feels fundamentaly "wrong" about how spread accumulates. Like the 5th bullet is as accurate as the second. First after like 10bullets, you are spraying everywhere, but most enemies are dead at that point anyway. It doesn't feel skillfull enough IMHO.

Do you like the magdump meta or would you like to se something that rewards trigger dicipline? There is no way that you would hit all first 5 bullets on a human sized target on full auto at 50m with any hand held weapon.

Comments

  • SWE-Androctonus
    537 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    InnerD wrote: »
    have you tried using guns that aren't the STG?

    Yes. Stg is the only full auto weapon in the assault class and the support weapons feels the same way. I think it's a clear indication on what direction the gunplay is gong, and and I don't like it too much. It's too easy.
  • Borges1091
    58 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
    edited September 8
    I agree with this, guns like the STG and LMG's need more "momentum recoil". The longer you fire the harder it gets to control. STG is literally a laser beam.
  • xXCA_RageXx
    579 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Since when was battlefields guns hard to use? Feels pretty similar to bf titles without the random spread that bf1 had.
  • Borges1091
    58 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
    edited September 8
    Since when was battlefields guns hard to use? Feels pretty similar to bf titles without the random spread that bf1 had.

    Clearly you've never played BF2 pc (early 2000). You couldn't even auto fire an AK past 20m you had to tap cause of the recoil. Goes to show how casual they've made spraying in the past years.
  • xXCA_RageXx
    579 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited September 8
    Borges1091 wrote: »
    Since when was battlefields guns hard to use? Feels pretty similar to bf titles without the random spread that bf1 had.

    Clearly you've never played BF2 pc (early 2000). You couldn't even auto fire an AK past 20m you had to tap cause of the recoil. Goes to show how casual they've made spraying in the past years.

    Lol i started with bf2. Of course the game has gotten more casual over the years, not denying that. But i dont think the gunplay was all that difficult back then. I find bf5 to be the closest to bf2 weve gotten since then in overall gameplay.
  • Rev0verDrive
    6622 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    I prefer trigger discipline. But that requires a low ping player pool. Not having to estimate an opponent's frame lead.

    "Oh snap he's got a huge ping ... adjust shot to 90cm ahead."
  • Borges1091
    58 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
    I prefer trigger discipline. But that requires a low ping player pool. Not having to estimate an opponent's frame lead.

    "Oh snap he's got a huge ping ... adjust shot to 90cm ahead."

    Games (including bf5) nowadays have an anti-lag feature that prevent this..you don't have to lead anyone with even a 300 ping yourself, or if their ping is 300. You can shoot the model and just the hit will be delayed.
  • Borges1091
    58 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
    edited September 8
    Borges1091 wrote: »
    Since when was battlefields guns hard to use? Feels pretty similar to bf titles without the random spread that bf1 had.

    Clearly you've never played BF2 pc (early 2000). You couldn't even auto fire an AK past 20m you had to tap cause of the recoil. Goes to show how casual they've made spraying in the past years.

    I find bf5 to be the closest to bf2 weve gotten since then in overall gameplay.

    That's a pretty delusional statement. Not to be a ****. But that's a huge no.
  • SWE-Androctonus
    537 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    Borges1091 wrote: »
    Borges1091 wrote: »
    Since when was battlefields guns hard to use? Feels pretty similar to bf titles without the random spread that bf1 had.

    Clearly you've never played BF2 pc (early 2000). You couldn't even auto fire an AK past 20m you had to tap cause of the recoil. Goes to show how casual they've made spraying in the past years.

    I find bf5 to be the closest to bf2 weve gotten since then in overall gameplay.

    That's a pretty delusional statement. Not to be a ****. But that's a huge no.
    Agree. I was so happy when a dev said that the gun mechanics was closer to bf3. This feels nothing like bf3. You couldn't hold mb1 and hit 10 bullets in a row at 50m.
  • Borges1091
    58 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
    edited September 8
    Borges1091 wrote: »
    Borges1091 wrote: »
    Since when was battlefields guns hard to use? Feels pretty similar to bf titles without the random spread that bf1 had.

    Clearly you've never played BF2 pc (early 2000). You couldn't even auto fire an AK past 20m you had to tap cause of the recoil. Goes to show how casual they've made spraying in the past years.

    I find bf5 to be the closest to bf2 weve gotten since then in overall gameplay.

    That's a pretty delusional statement. Not to be a ****. But that's a huge no.
    Agree. I was so happy when a dev said that the gun mechanics was closer to bf3. This feels nothing like bf3. You couldn't hold mb1 and hit 10 bullets in a row at 50m.

    The only thing I like is that there's no random bullet deviation aka aim-cone. What they NEED to add is a momentum recoil to all automatic weapons so the longer you fire, the harder it gets to control..even if it's slight. It'll fix most of the 100m STG spraying headshots from across the map.

    (yeah that won't ever probably happen)
  • Rev0verDrive
    6622 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    Borges1091 wrote: »
    I prefer trigger discipline. But that requires a low ping player pool. Not having to estimate an opponent's frame lead.

    "Oh snap he's got a huge ping ... adjust shot to 90cm ahead."

    Games (including bf5) nowadays have an anti-lag feature that prevent this..you don't have to lead anyone with even a 300 ping yourself, or if their ping is 300. You can shoot the model and just the hit will be delayed.

    What kind of physics altering code negates latency? Latency is time. There's nothing you can do to counter it.

    Dude you have read some very bad information.

    How can the server show me or you the exact position of a player in real time, if said players data (inputs) take 150ms (300ms ping) to reach the server?

    Short answer it cannot.

    Do some more reading from credible sources. And please don't come back uttering some nonsense about lag compensation. Lag comp only attempts to mitigate tick interval and replication delays.

  • Borges1091
    58 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
    edited September 8
    Borges1091 wrote: »
    I prefer trigger discipline. But that requires a low ping player pool. Not having to estimate an opponent's frame lead.

    "Oh snap he's got a huge ping ... adjust shot to 90cm ahead."

    Games (including bf5) nowadays have an anti-lag feature that prevent this..you don't have to lead anyone with even a 300 ping yourself, or if their ping is 300. You can shoot the model and just the hit will be delayed.

    What kind of physics altering code negates latency? Latency is time. There's nothing you can do to counter it.

    Dude you have read some very bad information.

    How can the server show me or you the exact position of a player in real time, if said players data (inputs) take 150ms (300ms ping) to reach the server?

    Short answer it cannot.

    Do some more reading from credible sources. And please don't come back uttering some nonsense about lag compensation. Lag comp only attempts to mitigate tick interval and replication delays.

    I'm not saying there's a negate in LATENCY. I'm saying for example, you don't have to "lead" the model of the character you are shooting. This is more noticeable in hitscan games tbh. I think Cod2 was one of the first games to implement it.

    1. For example a server that DOESN'T use anti-lag, your ping is 300ms. You shoot the ground, and it takes .3 seconds for your bullet to register impact on the server. Now you shoot a player center mass running behind a wall. You will miss because the bullet will register in the server .3 seconds after you've shot, so it misses the target.

    2. Server HAS anti-lag. Your ping is 300ms. You shoot the ground, and it takes .3 seconds for your bullet to register impact on the server. Now you shoot a player center mass running behind a wall. You will HIT the target past the wall, but he will get hit .3 seconds later. Get it? Since the server registered the hit on the target, but is still DELAYED 300ms due to your latency.

    However having 300ms will be a disadvantage in cqc due to the time it takes to register.

    I know BF5 doesn't use hitscan, so the same example does not apply..but it uses the same system to where "client side" your bullet hits the player model's hitbox, and will STILL hit the target, but just 300ms later, so you don't have to LEAD the player model 300ms in front. If BF5 does NOT use this system, then yes you are correct, you will have to lead your targets player model 300ms ahead of where he will be next.

    I'm only explaining this once, so if you don't understand, then forget it, since I have no video example.
  • Every time I find a game that seems to have realistic/hardcore gun mechanics, either it has an active player count of 17 people or the forums are full of people knocking the game for being too casual or what not.

    If the gun’s site goes up after 3 seconds of holding the trigger down, then it’s already better than Call of Duty. Good enough for me.
  • Borges1091
    58 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
    Borges1091 wrote:
    I'm not saying there's a negate in LATENCY. I'm saying for example, you don't have to "lead" the model of the character you are shooting. This is more noticeable in hitscan games tbh. I think Cod2 was one of the first games to implement it.

    1. For example a server that DOESN'T use anti-lag, your ping is 300ms. You shoot the ground, and it takes .3 seconds for your bullet to register impact on the server. Now you shoot a player center mass running behind a wall. You will miss because the bullet will register in the server .3 seconds after you've shot, so it misses the target.

    2. Server HAS anti-lag. Your ping is 300ms. You shoot the ground, and it takes .3 seconds for your bullet to register impact on the server. Now you shoot a player center mass running behind a wall. You will HIT the target past the wall, but he will get hit .3 seconds later. Get it? Since the server registered the hit on the target, but is still DELAYED 300ms due to your latency.

    However having 300ms will be a disadvantage in cqc due to the time it takes to register.

    I know BF5 doesn't use hitscan, so the same example does not apply..but it uses the same system to where "client side" your bullet hits the player model's hitbox, and will STILL hit the target, but just 300ms later, so you don't have to LEAD the player model 300ms in front. If BF5 does NOT use this system, then yes you are correct, you will have to lead your targets player model 300ms ahead of where he will be next.

    I'm only explaining this once, so if you don't understand, then forget it, since I have no video example.

    Not exactly how that works.

    When we input a command for movement the client executes it immediately. This is known as Client-Side Prediction. CSP only applies to your movements.

    At tick your client sends your batched commands for the interval to the server. For example on a 60Hz server you send a command batch every 16.66ms. So after the first tick update is received by the server it is receiving an update from you every 16.66ms.

    Your ping determines how old each packet is when received. A 300ms players packets on arrival at the server are 150ms old. Update Travel Time (UTT) is ping / 2. Data in games is one way.

    When the server receives your update it checks the timestamp for each command in the packet payload. It rewinds the game simulation to that moment and executes the command (calculates position based on input).

    We only get what the server knows at the time when it sends us updates.... aka Replication.

    The server "Replicates" what it knows to us. Replication Rates are not always 1:1 with the server. Meaning the update frequency is not general equal to tickrate.

    Tickrate simply defines the frequency in which we the client update the server and what the max replication rate "can be".

    Typically replication rates are 2:1. Meaning you update the server 2 times for every update it sends you.
    e.g. 60Hz tick, we update the server every 16.66ms. 30Hz replication rate, server updates us every 33.33ms.

    Battlefield as of BF1 runs at a 60Hz Tick and a 60Hz replication (out to 30m). Beyond 30m you are not sent updates at 60Hz. The lowest replication rate is 3Hz in BF1....anything out past 200m.

    ======================================

    Hit detection .......... BF1
    For below threshold pings we use client-side hit detection with server authentication (arbitration). For pings above threshold full server-side hit detection is used.

    Client-side hit detection....
    Client shoots, if the shot hits locally (bloodsplatter) the client sends a hit claim to the server. The server receives the claim and simulates the shot on the server. if it hits in the servers sim, then hit markers and xp are rewarded. Otherwise it's a miss.

    Server-side hit detection ...
    Client shoots, each shot fired the client sends a Fire() RPC to the server for replication and arbitration. The server receives the RPC and executes the projectile spawn. If the shot hits "any player" regardless the intended player or not. A hit is granted and XP/hitmarkers are rewarded.

    Projectile Physics and Collision Detection .....
    Battlefield does not use hitscan.

    On trigger pull the client spawns a projectile. This projectile is a dynamic actor with collision. When it collides with another actor or geometry a collision event is triggered. The event determines what was hit and where it was hit. If it was with a Pawn (player), then it sends the server a hit claim.

    For High pings (above threshold) a projectile without collision is spawned. This is known as an "inactive" or Faked projectile.

    When the server receives the hit claim and or a Fire() rpc it reads the timestamp and forward vector for the weapon. It then rewinds the simulation to the point of shot fired (always in the past) and spawns a projectile with a forward vector matching the data in the packet.

    ==================================

    With client-side hit detection using projectiles the low pinger cannot send the server a hit claim unless the projectile hits another player. This increases the delay inwhich the server is notified. The delay amount is determined by the weapons muzzle velocity and the distance to target. Bullet Travel Time.

    If the BTT is 50ms, then there's a 50ms delay added on top of the players UTT. So a player with a 15ms ping firing a shot and hitting in this in this scenario will have a 57.5ms delay before the server receives said hit claim.

    During that 57.5ms of time the server is still receiving updates ... positional change updates from all players. including the player you shot at.

    How many updates can the server receive about the player you shot at in 57.5ms?
    57.5 / 16.66 = 3.451380552220888 .... so 3.

    Because the player has a high ping what you see on screen ... his position and action .... are 150ms old at a minimum. This doesn't account for your latency delay, tick interval delay, replication delay, cpu processing delay, gpu processing/rendering delay, monitor input delay.

    So as your projectile is travelling the server is receiving inputs (old inputs) and updating his position in the history.

    Ballpark, each update can move a player a max of 10cm when running at full speed. So 3 updates would max at around 30cm (11.811 inches).

    Overall a 300ms players position compared to where he sees himself and where the server sees him can be up to 90cm different in regards to character movement(running/sprinting).

    For HP vs LP shots the low pinger doesn't have old inputs in route that can change their past tense position in this degree.

    OK I understand most of that. Makes sense and is what I expected in battlefield since yes it doesn't use hitscan and uses projectiles. My example was given in a hitscan environment as I stated and was a bit unsure how projectile worked.

    I understand that a player with 300ms position and action are old. "Overall a 300ms players position compared to where he sees himself and where the server sees him can be up to 90cm different in regards to character movement(running/sprinting)." This is interesting and didn't really know about, so it makes sense.

  • Borges1091
    58 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
    edited September 8
    Borges1091 wrote:
    I'm not saying there's a negate in LATENCY. I'm saying for example, you don't have to "lead" the model of the character you are shooting. This is more noticeable in hitscan games tbh. I think Cod2 was one of the first games to implement it.

    1. For example a server that DOESN'T use anti-lag, your ping is 300ms. You shoot the ground, and it takes .3 seconds for your bullet to register impact on the server. Now you shoot a player center mass running behind a wall. You will miss because the bullet will register in the server .3 seconds after you've shot, so it misses the target.

    2. Server HAS anti-lag. Your ping is 300ms. You shoot the ground, and it takes .3 seconds for your bullet to register impact on the server. Now you shoot a player center mass running behind a wall. You will HIT the target past the wall, but he will get hit .3 seconds later. Get it? Since the server registered the hit on the target, but is still DELAYED 300ms due to your latency.

    However having 300ms will be a disadvantage in cqc due to the time it takes to register.

    I know BF5 doesn't use hitscan, so the same example does not apply..but it uses the same system to where "client side" your bullet hits the player model's hitbox, and will STILL hit the target, but just 300ms later, so you don't have to LEAD the player model 300ms in front. If BF5 does NOT use this system, then yes you are correct, you will have to lead your targets player model 300ms ahead of where he will be next.

    I'm only explaining this once, so if you don't understand, then forget it, since I have no video example.

    Not exactly how that works.

    When we input a command for movement the client executes it immediately. This is known as Client-Side Prediction. CSP only applies to your movements.

    At tick your client sends your batched commands for the interval to the server. For example on a 60Hz server you send a command batch every 16.66ms. So after the first tick update is received by the server it is receiving an update from you every 16.66ms.

    Your ping determines how old each packet is when received. A 300ms players packets on arrival at the server are 150ms old. Update Travel Time (UTT) is ping / 2. Data in games is one way.

    When the server receives your update it checks the timestamp for each command in the packet payload. It rewinds the game simulation to that moment and executes the command (calculates position based on input).

    We only get what the server knows at the time when it sends us updates.... aka Replication.

    The server "Replicates" what it knows to us. Replication Rates are not always 1:1 with the server. Meaning the update frequency is not general equal to tickrate.

    Tickrate simply defines the frequency in which we the client update the server and what the max replication rate "can be".

    Typically replication rates are 2:1. Meaning you update the server 2 times for every update it sends you.
    e.g. 60Hz tick, we update the server every 16.66ms. 30Hz replication rate, server updates us every 33.33ms.

    Battlefield as of BF1 runs at a 60Hz Tick and a 60Hz replication (out to 30m). Beyond 30m you are not sent updates at 60Hz. The lowest replication rate is 3Hz in BF1....anything out past 200m.

    ======================================

    Hit detection .......... BF1
    For below threshold pings we use client-side hit detection with server authentication (arbitration). For pings above threshold full server-side hit detection is used.

    Client-side hit detection....
    Client shoots, if the shot hits locally (bloodsplatter) the client sends a hit claim to the server. The server receives the claim and simulates the shot on the server. if it hits in the servers sim, then hit markers and xp are rewarded. Otherwise it's a miss.

    Server-side hit detection ...
    Client shoots, each shot fired the client sends a Fire() RPC to the server for replication and arbitration. The server receives the RPC and executes the projectile spawn. If the shot hits "any player" regardless the intended player or not. A hit is granted and XP/hitmarkers are rewarded.

    Projectile Physics and Collision Detection .....
    Battlefield does not use hitscan.

    On trigger pull the client spawns a projectile. This projectile is a dynamic actor with collision. When it collides with another actor or geometry a collision event is triggered. The event determines what was hit and where it was hit. If it was with a Pawn (player), then it sends the server a hit claim.

    For High pings (above threshold) a projectile without collision is spawned. This is known as an "inactive" or Faked projectile.

    When the server receives the hit claim and or a Fire() rpc it reads the timestamp and forward vector for the weapon. It then rewinds the simulation to the point of shot fired (always in the past) and spawns a projectile with a forward vector matching the data in the packet.

    ==================================

    With client-side hit detection using projectiles the low pinger cannot send the server a hit claim unless the projectile hits another player. This increases the delay inwhich the server is notified. The delay amount is determined by the weapons muzzle velocity and the distance to target. Bullet Travel Time.

    If the BTT is 50ms, then there's a 50ms delay added on top of the players UTT. So a player with a 15ms ping firing a shot and hitting in this in this scenario will have a 57.5ms delay before the server receives said hit claim.

    During that 57.5ms of time the server is still receiving updates ... positional change updates from all players. including the player you shot at.

    How many updates can the server receive about the player you shot at in 57.5ms?
    57.5 / 16.66 = 3.451380552220888 .... so 3.

    Because the player has a high ping what you see on screen ... his position and action .... are 150ms old at a minimum. This doesn't account for your latency delay, tick interval delay, replication delay, cpu processing delay, gpu processing/rendering delay, monitor input delay.

    So as your projectile is travelling the server is receiving inputs (old inputs) and updating his position in the history.

    Ballpark, each update can move a player a max of 10cm when running at full speed. So 3 updates would max at around 30cm (11.811 inches).

    Overall a 300ms players position compared to where he sees himself and where the server sees him can be up to 90cm different in regards to character movement(running/sprinting).

    For HP vs LP shots the low pinger doesn't have old inputs in route that can change their past tense position in this degree.

    Ok I understand most of that. Makes sense since yes battlefield uses projectiles and not hitscan. My example was given in a hitscan environment but was unsure how projectiles worked exactly but with a rough idea. You explained my hitscan example client/server side with theory basically. It gets more complicated with projectiles.
  • En0th
    18 postsMember Member
    Honestly game became too casual over years.
    Not like 1942 was too hardcore, but it was decent approach to the shooters at the time.

    More I play, more skilled I am, but the franchise getting simplified. Over years the gap is too big now. The only shooter thats satisfying for me is probably Arma
  • crabman169
    12314 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    Borges1091 wrote: »
    Since when was battlefields guns hard to use? Feels pretty similar to bf titles without the random spread that bf1 had.

    Clearly you've never played BF2 pc (early 2000). You couldn't even auto fire an AK past 20m you had to tap cause of the recoil. Goes to show how casual they've made spraying in the past years.

    Clearly you couldn't control the next to Minimal recoil that bf2 had; it relied on spread to keep you from spraying accurately similar to what bf1 did
    Borges1091 wrote: »
    I prefer trigger discipline. But that requires a low ping player pool. Not having to estimate an opponent's frame lead.

    "Oh snap he's got a huge ping ... adjust shot to 90cm ahead."

    Games (including bf5) nowadays have an anti-lag feature that prevent this..you don't have to lead anyone with even a 300 ping yourself, or if their ping is 300. You can shoot the model and just the hit will be delayed.

    Umm it does not work like that at all; I've been playing with yanks at around 250ms and I have to lead 2.5 seconds ahead of any moving target etc. I actually wait for people to stand still before I fire most of the time just to try and ensure I get hits.

    Second day of the beta and my ping was 350ms and I could barely kill anyone.

    Trust me the higher your ping in bfv the worst your experience is gonna be

    Also lmao at trying to argue with Rev; that's like arguing with a racing driver because you played need for speed :D
  • Rev0verDrive
    6622 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    Borges1091 wrote:
    Ok I understand most of that. Makes sense since yes battlefield uses projectiles and not hitscan. My example was given in a hitscan environment but was unsure how projectiles worked exactly but with a rough idea. You explained my hitscan example client/server side with theory basically. It gets more complicated with projectiles.

    I work with Unreal Engine 4. I can show you from in engine how projectiles and hitscan work. I can even show you replication interleave in real time.

    Projectile hit detection isn't complicated in the slightest way.
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