Attrition video -- Levelcap

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  • ragnarok013
    3428 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    Oskool_007 wrote: »
    DICE needs to get rid of the arm animation popping up every time ammo is picked up. Just play a resupply sound. No need to hold up ammo pouches in front of our face every 5 seconds.

    I wholeheartedly agree, the animation is not my cup of tea and why do loose rounds pop out all over the place every time that you resupply?

    Animation might have to be there to make sure you really are resupplied, I tend to get noise bugs ever so often where I hear the resupply sound among others, think I've gotten ammo though it never happened. Call it PTSD and it's a feature.

    I look at my HUD to see my ammo count, I don't rely on animations and sounds that can glitch out with Battlefields history in those area since the Frostbite 2 era.
  • Are you guys playing the same game I played in the beta?

    Attrition definitely benefits more experienced FPS players. I was more successful off the bat in the beta than I have been in every other BF game. I've played at least 4000 online fps hours.

    Inexperienced players, to begin with, don't know what they don't know. They don't know that rushing to obvious hotspots is suicide and they don't know that if you overcompensate dying by ignoring all action with a 12x scoped sniper, you will make 0 progress as well.

    Inexperienced players were complaining about TTK/TTD immediately after the beta launched. "I have no time to react".

    You guys are on something if you think a player who doesn't know how to approach a gunfight or an objective isn't punished harder than a player who does.

    The only sense in which a "good" player is punished is the lone wolf who masters the full-health-regen.

    Needing teammates doesn't benefit a bad player, since a bad player is bad because he has no sense of what's going on.

    A good player is already closer to figuring out how to access ammo than a bad player will be.

    The bad player will die every minute, much less do anything else.
  • von_Campenstein
    6571 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    Oskool_007 wrote: »
    DICE needs to get rid of the arm animation popping up every time ammo is picked up. Just play a resupply sound. No need to hold up ammo pouches in front of our face every 5 seconds.

    I wholeheartedly agree, the animation is not my cup of tea and why do loose rounds pop out all over the place every time that you resupply?

    Animation might have to be there to make sure you really are resupplied, I tend to get noise bugs ever so often where I hear the resupply sound among others, think I've gotten ammo though it never happened. Call it PTSD and it's a feature.

    I look at my HUD to see my ammo count, I don't rely on animations and sounds that can glitch out with Battlefields history in those area since the Frostbite 2 era.

    I tend to rely on sound cues, when I hear that I switch to my gadgets to see what I've got. With both sound and animation one would think there is less risk of simultanous glitching.
  • Sixclicks
    5075 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited October 2018
    Inexperienced players were complaining about TTK/TTD immediately after the beta launched. "I have no time to react".

    Disliking the fast TTK/TTD has nothing to do with inexperience. Some people don't like it. It's that simple.

    I'm far from "inexperienced", and I'm not a fan of the fast TTK/TTD either. I still had a 3.0+ KDR and top scores in nearly every match I played in both the alphas and the beta. Stop trying to use your perceptions of skill as an explanation for why people may not like something that you do like.

    The bad player will die every minute, much less do anything else.

    That's exactly the point. A bad player dies too often for attrition to really affect them. They don't have to worry about running out of ammo as much because they'll likely die before they do. Only players who go on long killing streaks will have to contend with the low ammo count.
  • Hay-its-dudeman
    364 postsMember Member
    edited October 2018
    Sixclicks wrote: »

    Disliking the fast TTK/TTD has nothing to do with inexperience. Some people don't like it. It's that simple.

    I'm far from "inexperienced", and I'm not a fan of the fast TTK/TTD either. I still had a 3.0+ KDR and top scores in nearly every match I played in both the alphas and the beta. Stop trying to use your perceptions of skill as an explanation for why people may not like something that you do like.

    I didn't say "skill", I said "experienced". When you say, "skill", i think about muscle memory/ aim ability. My use of "experienced" is referring to players who have simply put in enough fps time to know how the average person tends to play. Maybe "gameplan" is a better word. Players who have the experience to "gameplan" against a lot of players benefit from the fast TTK because of the effectiveness of flanking.

    Your experience is your experience, but mine tells me that inexperienced players get run over by experienced players more easily when they die faster. The best infantry players I saw in the beta were all flankers who "snaked" for easy kills.

    Maybe the inexperience is not the reason. whatever. that's fine.

    Sixclicks wrote: »
    That's exactly the point. A bad player dies too often for attrition to really affect them. They don't have to worry about running out of ammo as much because they'll likely die before they do. Only players who go on long killing streaks will have to contend with the low ammo count.

    I guess. But I think the TTK will still balance the whole equation in favor of experienced players.

    If they left the TTK but diminished attrition, I think the disparity between top players and average players would be pretty high. If they increased TTK but left attrition, that might benefit bad players in some sense, but not a lot if they don't improve their decision-making. It would just result in whoever has a more spammy squad, which I am fine with.

    I like attrition because it is a new challenge. I don't think limiting one's ability to be productive without team help diminishes the individual incentive to play, if that's what you are thinking. If that's what drives you over all else, then I understand. But I like the team-arena feel to attrition BFV.

    Being on a bad squad was frustrating as hell in the beta, but being on a good squad was the best experience I have had in a BF game since BFBC2, even if the opponents were bad.

    I found enough medic spam to think the heal class was played well. I didn't find enough ammo spam to think it was played enough.

    But when it was, it was great. I will take the risk/reward of attrition over continuing the same ole BF objective modes with the same ole tactics.

    I agree with levelcap that it lowers the skillceiling, but I actually want the dependence-factor more than the most recent BF skillceiling. That's apparently what this is coming down to, ultimately: skill-ceiling versus team-dependence.

    I obviously want the latter. Maybe it's because I'm an above-average player and not a top player. It helps me beat slightly worse players more and lose to better players less.

    I don't think the skillceiling argument will work in DICE's mind. The fact that they went in this direction at all definitely seems like a deliberate experiment....one that I eagerly want to try.
  • Hay-its-dudeman
    364 postsMember Member
    @Sixclicks,

    based on your description of your ability, you seem like you're closer to a top player than an "average" player. So, if that is why you dislike it, I understand. Do you feel like the work you have put into FPS games has been pushed aside, with attrition?

    I am closer to the average player, but am good at adapting to individual players' playstyles. I am not as skilled as top players, but can make in-game adjustments. It felt like the game benefitted my natural strengths well. So, maybe I am biased to bolstered results. If I was a skilled player I might view it as a slap in the face.
  • DingoKillr
    3734 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Sixclicks wrote: »
    The bad player will die every minute, much less do anything else.

    That's exactly the point. A bad player dies too often for attrition to really affect them. They don't have to worry about running out of ammo as much because they'll likely die before they do. Only players who go on long killing streaks will have to contend with the low ammo count.
    Is that not a low skill floor while having a multi layered skill ceiling.

    Running out of ammo is nothing new to long term BF players even when source other than Support are available. Where are the meme lords with their BF3 Ammo memes.
    BF2 had attrition and commander supply drops
    BF3 had high spawn ammo
    BF4 had commander supply drops
    BF1 had vehicle drops
    BFV has pickup pouches, supply depot, squad supply drops and we don't know if vehicles have drops too.
    Yet some how so many players are suddenly fearful of running out of ammo to health.


  • JamieCurnock
    633 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Surely if you lower the ttk so it takes more to die you're going to need more bullets to kill someone, that means your going to run out of ammo quicker. Won't it therefore make attrition even more of an issue?

    Also id bet that 'most' people are happy when they are the ones killing, just not when they are dying. Isn't that just a standard thing with competitive fps games?
  • Sixclicks
    5075 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    @Sixclicks,

    based on your description of your ability, you seem like you're closer to a top player than an "average" player. So, if that is why you dislike it, I understand. Do you feel like the work you have put into FPS games has been pushed aside, with attrition?

    I am closer to the average player, but am good at adapting to individual players' playstyles. I am not as skilled as top players, but can make in-game adjustments. It felt like the game benefitted my natural strengths well. So, maybe I am biased to bolstered results. If I was a skilled player I might view it as a slap in the face.

    I don't really dislike attrition. I just think it doesn't really add that much to the game overall. And I definitely agree with other's sentiments that it punishes more skilled players more than lesser skilled players. It really does work great when you've got a good squad, but that's a pretty rare occurrence for me. I think it will be a little better once they adjust it like they said they were where you'll spawn with an additional mag. I thought it was kind of dumb that you spawn with 2 mags but can carry 3. That just adds an extra annoying "chore" of running to the closest supply box every time you spawn.

    I also don't really hate the faster TTK, but I would prefer it was slightly slower.

    I don't think my experience with other FPS games has been "pushed aside."

    I've got a lot of FPS experience in many different styles of games. Such as:
    COD: 1, 2, 3, MW, MW2, WAW, BO1, BO3, AW
    Counter Strike Source (my most overall hours played FPS)
    Halo Series up to 3
    Overwatch
    Destiny 1 & 2
    Planetside 2
    BF2, BF2142, BFBC1, BFBC2, BF3, BF4, BFV alphas and beta

    I also used to mostly play Hardcore in COD and BF3 and BF4. Although in BF1 I switched to playing most core.

    So I've played games with slow TTKs and fast TTKs.
  • Sixclicks
    5075 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited October 2018
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    Sixclicks wrote: »
    The bad player will die every minute, much less do anything else.

    That's exactly the point. A bad player dies too often for attrition to really affect them. They don't have to worry about running out of ammo as much because they'll likely die before they do. Only players who go on long killing streaks will have to contend with the low ammo count.
    Is that not a low skill floor while having a multi layered skill ceiling.

    Running out of ammo is nothing new to long term BF players even when source other than Support are available. Where are the meme lords with their BF3 Ammo memes.
    BF2 had attrition and commander supply drops
    BF3 had high spawn ammo
    BF4 had commander supply drops
    BF1 had vehicle drops
    BFV has pickup pouches, supply depot, squad supply drops and we don't know if vehicles have drops too.
    Yet some how so many players are suddenly fearful of running out of ammo to health.


    I've run out of ammo a lot more in BFV so far than I have in other games. Support only made up 14% of the population in the beta. Unless you were always near an objective when you got into an intense firefight, it was very easy to run out of ammo. Especially when you gun down a few enemies, start running towards their corpses to pick up ammo off of their bodies, and a teammate beats you to it and takes it all. And other random support players, as usual, can almost never be relied on to actually toss you some ammo.

    I ran out of ammo plenty of times in BF1 as well, but not as frequently.

    Health was less of an issue imo because it seemed like there were plenty of medics around. They made up 22% of the population in the beta. I also played medic myself quite a bit because I really liked the Sten.
  • Ferdinand_J_Foch
    3410 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    BF2 had attrition and commander supply drops

    BF2 did not have 'attrition'. BF2 could let you spawn with five bloody grenades depending on the class you picked, and let you take 4-6 magazine for most guns. Here, have a look:

    http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/M16/Battlefield_2

    Even BF Vietnam didn't have limited ammo ... that game let you carry as much ammo as you can in BF2.

    http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/AK-47
  • DingoKillr
    3734 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    BF2 had attrition and commander supply drops

    BF2 did not have 'attrition'. BF2 could let you spawn with five bloody grenades depending on the class you picked, and let you take 4-6 magazine for most guns. Here, have a look:

    http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/M16/Battlefield_2

    Even BF Vietnam didn't have limited ammo ... that game let you carry as much ammo as you can in BF2.

    http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/AK-47

    Attrition is not just Infantry ammo. It is health, vehicle ammo and vehicle repair.

    What we have in BFV is attrition with ammo 2.0.
  • I didn't see an issue with attrition. As long as you're playing the objective and not screwing around in pointless areas of the map, maintaining ammo seemed pretty easy.

    I must have run out of ammo without being near a resupply crate/objective like 4 times in the entire beta.
  • Ferdinand_J_Foch
    3410 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    BF2 had attrition and commander supply drops

    BF2 did not have 'attrition'. BF2 could let you spawn with five bloody grenades depending on the class you picked, and let you take 4-6 magazine for most guns. Here, have a look:

    http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/M16/Battlefield_2

    Even BF Vietnam didn't have limited ammo ... that game let you carry as much ammo as you can in BF2.

    http://battlefield.wikia.com/wiki/AK-47

    Attrition is not just Infantry ammo. It is health, vehicle ammo and vehicle repair.

    What we have in BFV is attrition with ammo 2.0.

    Fair point, although I do believe that it is the infantry ammo that is affecting players the most, rather than limited health regen and limited vehicle ammo.

    ... it is basically Ammo 2.0, isn't it? I wonder why MarbleDuck doesn't like it then.
  • SirBobdk
    4203 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited October 2018
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    That whole video stinks of " I can't go on massive killstreaks anymore, WAAAAAAH!
    Why is that any mechanic that makes the game a bit 'harder' or require a bit more thought, it always 'punishes good players'?
    Truely good players are 'good' no matter what, if a player can't adapt to new mechanics and still do well then perhaps they are not as 'good' as they think they are.
    Agree.
    Sometimes it feels like everyone wants this game to be all about me me me and not about teamplay.
    I think it fine that a good squard now matter even if you can get unlucky and be in a bad one, and you have to think about what your doing
    I found it more interesting to play infantry and vehicles with this system and not just the headless lone wolf run and gun from BF1 to see who get's the highest numbers of kills and kdr. I hope they don't change it to much and give it a chance.
  • Hay-its-dudeman
    364 postsMember Member
    I didn't see an issue with attrition. As long as you're playing the objective and not screwing around in pointless areas of the map, maintaining ammo seemed pretty easy.

    I must have run out of ammo without being near a resupply crate/objective like 4 times in the entire beta.

    My experience exactly.
  • VBALL_MVP
    6177 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    That whole video stinks of " I can't go on massive killstreaks anymore, WAAAAAAH!

    Why is that any mechanic that makes the game a bit 'harder' or require a bit more thought, it always 'punishes good players'?

    Truely good players are 'good' no matter what, if a player can't adapt to new mechanics and still do well then perhaps they are not as 'good' as they think they are.

    Absolutely
  • ElderwiseSlayer
    36 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Attrition is soooo broken. I can only get ammo/health from medic/support classes, supply stations, supply drops, and from looting dead enemy soldiers! It's not fair. It should also be raining spare mags dice! I should have 1 million rounds when i spawn, and 50 panzerfaust! This game is trash because it encourages me to use the gray mush betwixt my ear holes. WHY DICE WHYYYYY!

    To Hem and Haw,

    The BFV attrition scheme is indeed new. Sadly, most people don't like it when they find that their cheese moved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F

    I'm a support/engineer player mostly.

    I plan on continuing to support my squad and anyone else I can. In the heat of battle don't expect me to drop diddly until its clear to do so as determined by ME. In the beta, I saw most players picking up ammo from two additional sources that haven't been available until BFV, as far as I know, and understand. Those were from fallen opponents and ammo stations near flags. Most of my ammo drops were in locations far removed from those two new locations. I feel like the attrition scheme for BFV will likely be much better than any other BF before it. Yes, you may have to adjust your gameplay style a bit but not really a major effort. Yes, Dice will adjust this scheme though tweaks as time progresses but I really like the new scheme.
  • Turban_Legend80
    4695 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Member
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    That whole video stinks of " I can't go on massive killstreaks anymore, WAAAAAAH!

    Why is that any mechanic that makes the game a bit 'harder' or require a bit more thought, it always 'punishes good players'?

    Truely good players are 'good' no matter what, if a player can't adapt to new mechanics and still do well then perhaps they are not as 'good' as they think they are.

    It’s not about what makes a player good. We already know good players and bad players exist. Bad players won’t be effected anywhere near as much as good players because they’ll die before they need to restock.
    I don’t know what’s so difficult to understand about that.

    Let’s say all these people saying “it only effects good players” don’t buy BFV. There will still be good players and bad players, and the bad players won’t be effected as much.
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