It's time to look at updating the Repair Tool

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rainkloud
548 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
The current system dates back to BF 2142 is, diplomatically speaking, long in the tooth and is both at odds with the new concepts introduced in BFV and with competitors who are employing more complex systems. Please take a moment to review this presentation and share your thoughts here:

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/15TLL4mAnP3AsFS7BhJuKmIqOz8UtgJ2kIByXUJS-eew/edit?usp=sharing

Comments

  • MONEYPYR0
    828 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Very well thought out, and well presented, but here's my main issue.

    There's no Engineer class anymore.

    There isn't a dedicated Repairman anymore, since the repair tool has been repurposed to the Support class, and I can bet that not many Support players will be using the Repair Tool often. I noticed in BF1, most vehicle repair happens from the vehicle operator, instead of from a soldier on the outside. People just didnt seem to care to repair vehicles, unless they were the one driving. So I feel the lack of a real Engineer class is going to mean there's less people looking to repair vehicles, unless they're the one driving. I dont know, I never see people repairing tanks in BF1, and I feel like BFV won't be much different.
  • Foot_Guard_Tomei
    438 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    rainkloud wrote: »
    The current system dates back to BF 2142 is, diplomatically speaking, long in the tooth and is both at odds with the new concepts introduced in BFV and with competitors who are employing more complex systems. Please take a moment to review this presentation and share your thoughts here:

    https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/15TLL4mAnP3AsFS7BhJuKmIqOz8UtgJ2kIByXUJS-eew/edit?usp=sharing

    This would add to whole physicality they are striving for with added animations and attrition-scarcity mechanics. They have skipped this, probably since vehicle gameplay of infantry soldier classes outside of AT equipments is gradually diminished away when engineer got scrapped.
    MONEYPYR0 wrote: »
    Very well thought out, and well presented, but here's my main issue.

    There's no Engineer class anymore.

    There isn't a dedicated Repairman anymore, since the repair tool has been repurposed to the Support class, and I can bet that not many Support players will be using the Repair Tool often. I noticed in BF1, most vehicle repair happens from the vehicle operator, instead of from a soldier on the outside. People just didnt seem to care to repair vehicles, unless they were the one driving. So I feel the lack of a real Engineer class is going to mean there's less people looking to repair vehicles, unless they're the one driving. I dont know, I never see people repairing tanks in BF1, and I feel like BFV won't be much different.

    What I see is that DICE tries to buff lower Support pick rates with 3rd gadget slot's advanced tool box. Most of Support players pick class for machine guns (suppressive fire) and unlimited ammo, that's enough of combat role to carry alone. Constructing fortifications keeps them busy too, some structures are time consuming to build.

    Vehicles are ideally repaired by crewmen, so how about introducing crewman function for those spawning on vehicles? When spawning on an armored vehicle, you can select (or be forced to take) tanker kit.
  • ragnarok013
    2934 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    MONEYPYR0 wrote: »
    Very well thought out, and well presented, but here's my main issue.

    There's no Engineer class anymore.

    There isn't a dedicated Repairman anymore, since the repair tool has been repurposed to the Support class, and I can bet that not many Support players will be using the Repair Tool often. I noticed in BF1, most vehicle repair happens from the vehicle operator, instead of from a soldier on the outside. People just didnt seem to care to repair vehicles, unless they were the one driving. So I feel the lack of a real Engineer class is going to mean there's less people looking to repair vehicles, unless they're the one driving. I dont know, I never see people repairing tanks in BF1, and I feel like BFV won't be much different.

    I agree, I'd kill to have the engineer class return. I've not liked the new class system since it debuted in BF1 not to mention the self repair from the driver seat which I think minimized the need for a real repairman. As a support most people think why should I take a gadget slot up with a repair tool and risk an outside repair if the driver's just going to repair it himself from the safety of his vehicle.
  • madman001able
    611 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    I thought the engineer was a combat role for the support class. Did they change it?
  • rainkloud
    548 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member

    I agree, I'd kill to have the engineer class return. I've not liked the new class system since it debuted in BF1 not to mention the self repair from the driver seat which I think minimized the need for a real repairman. As a support most people think why should I take a gadget slot up with a repair tool and risk an outside repair if the driver's just going to repair it himself from the safety of his vehicle.

    I think the repair tool is embedded in the support class now and is not in slot competition. Correct me if I'm wrong.
  • MONEYPYR0
    828 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    I thought the engineer was a combat role for the support class. Did they change it?

    Its a combat role, but thats not the same as a class. Engineer was the Combat Role of Support in the beta I think? And pretty much all it did was let them build fortifications faster, if I remember right.
    MONEYPYR0 wrote: »
    Very well thought out, and well presented, but here's my main issue.

    There's no Engineer class anymore.

    There isn't a dedicated Repairman anymore, since the repair tool has been repurposed to the Support class, and I can bet that not many Support players will be using the Repair Tool often. I noticed in BF1, most vehicle repair happens from the vehicle operator, instead of from a soldier on the outside. People just didnt seem to care to repair vehicles, unless they were the one driving. So I feel the lack of a real Engineer class is going to mean there's less people looking to repair vehicles, unless they're the one driving. I dont know, I never see people repairing tanks in BF1, and I feel like BFV won't be much different.

    I agree, I'd kill to have the engineer class return. I've not liked the new class system since it debuted in BF1 not to mention the self repair from the driver seat which I think minimized the need for a real repairman. As a support most people think why should I take a gadget slot up with a repair tool and risk an outside repair if the driver's just going to repair it himself from the safety of his vehicle.

    Completely agree. Honestly, they should've gone back to a more Battlefield 2 size of classes. Assault, Medic, Engineer, Recon, and Support. One of the reasons I loved BF2 so much, is that everyone had a specific job, and that was what you were needed to do. I don't mind the downsize from 7 or 8 classes down to 4 or 5, but they have to be a good set of classes. Engineers have been a huge part of the series, and now they've just been thrown aside
  • Trokey66
    8176 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Why do I get the feeling that despite a well written post, the OP has never or at least rarely repaired vehicles?

    When repairing there is a very high chance of being slotted even when trying to keep the body of the Tonk between themselves and the enemy, especially if the driver is maneuvering.

    If the Tonk takes a destroying hit despite the Repair Monkey's best efforts, the resultant explosion will probably kill him.

    Repairing is NOT instant.

    Whilst repairing, although not aiming as such, the Repair Monkey has to face the vehicle at all times to effect repairs.

    The Repair Monkey is unarmed whilst repairing so self defence is almost impossible if someone gets behind him.

    External repair is NOT instant!

    I believe that the Repair Tool is a 'permenant gadget' as part of his 'Tool Kit'.

    I agree, and also preferred the Engineer Class over all.

    Repairing is NOT instant and the Repair Monkey is at significant risk when repairing.

    Teamwork is, and should rightly be, OP.
  • MONEYPYR0
    828 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    I believe that the Repair Tool is a 'permenant gadget' as part of his 'Tool Kit'.

    I dont feel thats true. I think the repair tool was a separate thing for Support only. But I could be wrong, since I don't think I tried to repair a vehicle using the Tool Kit
  • Trokey66
    8176 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    MONEYPYR0 wrote: »
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    I believe that the Repair Tool is a 'permenant gadget' as part of his 'Tool Kit'.

    I dont feel thats true. I think the repair tool was a separate thing for Support only. But I could be wrong, since I don't think I tried to repair a vehicle using the Tool Kit

    That's what I meant by 'his', the Support Class.
  • MONEYPYR0
    828 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    MONEYPYR0 wrote: »
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    I believe that the Repair Tool is a 'permenant gadget' as part of his 'Tool Kit'.

    I dont feel thats true. I think the repair tool was a separate thing for Support only. But I could be wrong, since I don't think I tried to repair a vehicle using the Tool Kit

    That's what I meant by 'his', the Support Class.

    My bad, read that wrong. But I still think the repair tool is a separate gadget, but I dony remember for sure
  • rainkloud
    548 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited October 2018
    MONEYPYR0 wrote: »
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    I believe that the Repair Tool is a 'permenant gadget' as part of his 'Tool Kit'.

    I dont feel thats true. I think the repair tool was a separate thing for Support only. But I could be wrong, since I don't think I tried to repair a vehicle using the Tool Kit

    I can tell you definitively that the hammer turned into a torch when you were close to vehicles and then you could repair them (as the support class). I also recall that the gadget couldn't be removed from the loadout screen but it remains to be seen whether that was based on the specialization role or whether all roles will have it hard coded. For what it is worth I think it should be hardcoded to support just as the syringe is for the medic.
  • MONEYPYR0
    828 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    rainkloud wrote: »
    MONEYPYR0 wrote: »
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    I believe that the Repair Tool is a 'permenant gadget' as part of his 'Tool Kit'.

    I dont feel thats true. I think the repair tool was a separate thing for Support only. But I could be wrong, since I don't think I tried to repair a vehicle using the Tool Kit

    I can tell you definitively that the hammer turned into a torch when you were close to vehicles and then you could repair them (as the support class). I also recall that the gadget couldn't be removed from the loadout screen but it remains to be seen whether that was based on the specialization role or whether all roles will have it hard coded. For what it is worth I think it should be hardcoded to support just as the syringe is for the medic.

    Thanks for the clarification. It may just be a Support thing then, but I don't remember trying to repair vehicles as Assault. So it could be just for Support then
  • rainkloud
    548 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    Why do I get the feeling that despite a well written post, the OP has never or at least rarely repaired vehicles?


    If the Tonk takes a destroying hit despite the Repair Monkey's best efforts, the resultant explosion will probably kill him.

    As it should. Anyone who can't gauge when to retreat while repairing and dies as a result of the vehicle splosion has been justly served.
    


    Whilst repairing, although not aiming as such, the Repair Monkey has to face the vehicle at all times to effect repairs.
    Yes but they don't have to stand still and they can point the torch any where on the vehicle.
    

    The Repair Monkey is unarmed whilst repairing so self defence is almost impossible if someone gets behind him.
    I mean I should hope so. If you get flanked then someone on the opposing team was exceptional or you picked a really poor time/place to apply repairs.
    

    External repair is NOT instant!
    Health begins to be restored instantly once you begin repairing with the torch. I think you may be under the impression that I am claiming that [b]full [/b]health is instantly restored which [b]I am not[/b]. I don't know why someone would conclude that based off of what I said but to avoid any issues I'll update the presentation to be more explicit.
    

    Repair Monkey is at significant risk when repairing.
    Significant, yes but very manageable. Too manageable. You can very smartly repair and close off any site lines especially on certain maps. You can also hop into the vehicle pretty quickly too in order to avoid deathblows.
    

    Teamwork is, and should rightly be, OP.
    Anything that is OP is, by its very definition, unbalanced and needs to be brought into reasonable levels.
    

  • Trokey66
    8176 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Not quoting as you've done some bizarre swizzle there.......

    I was going to respond but then I saw your last statement and decided you are talking complete Gentleman's dangly bits so I'm out.
  • rainkloud
    548 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    Not quoting as you've done some bizarre swizzle there.......

    I was going to respond but then I saw your last statement and decided you are talking complete Gentleman's dangly bits so I'm out.

    You have an unusual way of conceding defeat but I’ll accept it nonetheless. Will anyone else take up the challenge in his stead?
  • DeadlyDanDaMan
    615 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited October 2018
    MONEYPYR0 wrote: »
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    MONEYPYR0 wrote: »
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    I believe that the Repair Tool is a 'permenant gadget' as part of his 'Tool Kit'.

    I dont feel thats true. I think the repair tool was a separate thing for Support only. But I could be wrong, since I don't think I tried to repair a vehicle using the Tool Kit

    That's what I meant by 'his', the Support Class.

    My bad, read that wrong. But I still think the repair tool is a separate gadget, but I dony remember for sure

    Repair tool is a permanent gadget now for Supports, just like the revive syringe is for Medics. That's why Support has the Engineer Combat Role, because ANY Support can repair vehicles, but a Support with the Engineer Combat Role can do it better.
  • MONEYPYR0
    828 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    MONEYPYR0 wrote: »
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    MONEYPYR0 wrote: »
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    I believe that the Repair Tool is a 'permenant gadget' as part of his 'Tool Kit'.

    I dont feel thats true. I think the repair tool was a separate thing for Support only. But I could be wrong, since I don't think I tried to repair a vehicle using the Tool Kit

    That's what I meant by 'his', the Support Class.

    My bad, read that wrong. But I still think the repair tool is a separate gadget, but I dony remember for sure

    Repair tool is a permanent gadget now for Supports, just like the revive syringe is for Medics. That's why Support has the Engineer Combat Role, because ANY Support can repair vehicles, but a Support with the Engineer Combat Role can do it better.

    Gotcha man. Still though, I'm heartbroken about no real Engineer class
  • madman001able
    611 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    rainkloud wrote: »
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    Not quoting as you've done some bizarre swizzle there.......

    I was going to respond but then I saw your last statement and decided you are talking complete Gentleman's dangly bits so I'm out.

    You have an unusual way of conceding defeat but I’ll accept it nonetheless. Will anyone else take up the challenge in his stead?

    Yup, if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it.
  • rainkloud
    548 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    rainkloud wrote: »
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    Not quoting as you've done some bizarre swizzle there.......

    I was going to respond but then I saw your last statement and decided you are talking complete Gentleman's dangly bits so I'm out.

    You have an unusual way of conceding defeat but I’ll accept it nonetheless. Will anyone else take up the challenge in his stead?

    Yup, if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it.

    I've already successfully demonstrated the faults in the current system. ignoring them doesn't mean they go away.
  • Trokey66
    8176 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    No you haven't, they only thing you've done successfully is to continue to prove my point.
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