Medic weapons are garbage. And bipoted campers, the way this game is meant to be played? [RANT]

Comments

  • bran1986
    5601 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2018
    See it wouldn't bother having the m1907 at 770 rpm and a 4 btk if weapon balance was treated like it was in BF1. In BF1 there was a lot of weapons that each class got that filled niches of other classes. The assault got the Ribeyrolles that gave assault a bipod and more range. The support got the BAR and later the Burton. So you want to make the m1907 a powerful cqb weapon? Fine but give me a 600+ rpm smg with a mid range scope and a 50 meter 5 btk range.
    Post edited by bran1986 on
  • LEGATVS_ROMANVS
    372 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    kleerkoat wrote: »
    i think the people saying the medic doesn't need any changes has probably never put in the time playing one.

    They just say that because medics are extremely easy targets. They always want the easy kills.
  • VindictiV_V
    1347 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    bran1986 wrote: »
    See it wouldn't bother having the m1907 at 770 rpm and a 4 btk if weapon balance was treated like it was in BF1. In BF1 there was a lot of weapons that each class got that filled niches of other classes. The assault got the Ribeyrolles that gave assault a bipod and more range. The support got the BAR and later the Burton. So you want to make the m1907 a powerful cqb weapon? Fine but give me a 600+ rpm smg with a mid range scope and a 50 meter 5 kill range.

    Indeed, never understood why the M1907, clearly intended for close range, is still capable of 5BTK up to 50m while SMGs will be at a puny 30m 5BTK.
  • patrikos68
    3 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Medic was good in BF3 and BF4, but this what happend to medic in BF1 and BF5 is insane. He has no chance against other classes. All battlefields i am playing only as medic . I dont want to complain but this makes me very angry when your favorite class is beign f***** up.
  • Major_Pungspark
    1389 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    patrikos68 wrote: »
    Medic was good in BF3 and BF4, but this what happend to medic in BF1 and BF5 is insane. He has no chance against other classes. All battlefields i am playing only as medic . I dont want to complain but this makes me very angry when your favorite class is beign f***** up.

    You do have a chance, but you need to think more about range to targets. After like 20 meters you really start to have issues. But the patch is soon now so..
  • VincentNZ
    2592 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    patrikos68 wrote: »
    Medic was good in BF3 and BF4, but this what happend to medic in BF1 and BF5 is insane. He has no chance against other classes. All battlefields i am playing only as medic . I dont want to complain but this makes me very angry when your favorite class is beign f***** up.

    You do have a chance, but you need to think more about range to targets. After like 20 meters you really start to have issues. But the patch is soon now so..

    The patch won't help a whole lot unless they halve the SIPS or something. With poor accuracy, a lower ROF on average, and a lower damage profile, while sporting similar or more recoil than other weapon classes you are underperforming in all ranges. Yes there is an advantage when hip-firing at ranges below 10m, but at that range, and BFV will force you through map design into a lot of these, the result of the engagement will primarily be determinded by position and your own reaction time. Weapon stats come second.
    -
    Fact is the KE7 nerf is just a slight adjustment, the AR buff is understandable, but still a buff to a direct competitor, and some of the changes to SMGs aim at the wrong direction. Like the stationary ADS buff. When I am in a position to fire at a guy while standing still, I am either aiming at a guy who has no idea that I am there, where the buff is likely not necessary, or I am forced into an engagement, where I know I am outgunned, but standing and shooting is the only way to hit the guy. A decrease in moving spread would have been more sensible.
  • CHAMMOND1992
    1039 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    patrikos68 wrote: »
    Medic was good in BF3 and BF4, but this what happend to medic in BF1 and BF5 is insane. He has no chance against other classes. All battlefields i am playing only as medic . I dont want to complain but this makes me very angry when your favorite class is beign f***** up.

    If you couldn't do anything with medic in BF1, then you were the problem. That class was incredibly easy to rack up kills with and stay alive.
  • VindictiV_V
    1347 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    VincentNZ wrote: »
    patrikos68 wrote: »
    Medic was good in BF3 and BF4, but this what happend to medic in BF1 and BF5 is insane. He has no chance against other classes. All battlefields i am playing only as medic . I dont want to complain but this makes me very angry when your favorite class is beign f***** up.

    You do have a chance, but you need to think more about range to targets. After like 20 meters you really start to have issues. But the patch is soon now so..

    The patch won't help a whole lot unless they halve the SIPS or something. With poor accuracy, a lower ROF on average, and a lower damage profile, while sporting similar or more recoil than other weapon classes you are underperforming in all ranges. Yes there is an advantage when hip-firing at ranges below 10m, but at that range, and BFV will force you through map design into a lot of these, the result of the engagement will primarily be determinded by position and your own reaction time. Weapon stats come second.
    -
    Fact is the KE7 nerf is just a slight adjustment, the AR buff is understandable, but still a buff to a direct competitor, and some of the changes to SMGs aim at the wrong direction. Like the stationary ADS buff. When I am in a position to fire at a guy while standing still, I am either aiming at a guy who has no idea that I am there, where the buff is likely not necessary, or I am forced into an engagement, where I know I am outgunned, but standing and shooting is the only way to hit the guy. A decrease in moving spread would have been more sensible.
    The more I think about the stats, the more I think the proper way to balance would be:
    • ARs, LMGs and MGs should all have their max damage reduced so they cannot kill with less than 5 bodyshots (so they are all at 5 BTK from 0 to 50m)... they are medium range intended weapons after all.
    • all SMGs get their 4BTK range increased to 15m. They are CQC intended weapons after all.
    • slower RoF SMGs get another buff to their accuracy (on top of the one planned for the 4th) in the form of a SIPS reduction because stationary accuracy buff is essentially useless and SIPS is the main reason you miss shots when using SMGs.
    • slower RoF SMGs get their 5BTK pushed back up to 35m. This is needed if we want the medic class to be able to perform at medium range somewhat reliably.

    All those 4 things need to happen. It's the only way to properly give SMGs their own niches (CQC for high RoF ones, and short-medium for slower RoF ones). And I'm not asking for much (5m increase to our BTK "increments"). Also, considering SMGs are on the lower side of the RoF spectrum when comparing all automatic weaponry together, I'm not even sure simply giving SMGs 1 less BTK in CQC is enough to really say that they actually get a significant enough advantage TTK-wise... we will have to wait for symthic to release the comparison graphs and all.
  • Major_Pungspark
    1389 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2018
    This is a huge part by the way:
    ADSStandRecoilLeft: 0.475*
    ADSStandRecoilRight: -0.475*

    If the recoil sends every bullit to the sides of the enemy you can buff them to the moon and it will still kill nothing, unless you single shot, the longer out, the more the bullet will miss the target.

  • VindictiV_V
    1347 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    This is a huge part by the way:
    ADSStandRecoilLeft: 0.475*
    ADSStandRecoilRight: -0.475*

    If the recoil sends every bullit to the sides of the enemy you can buff them to the moon and it will still kill nothing, unless you single shot, the longer out, the more the bullet will miss the target.

    Which weapon(s) is that from? Does that mean it will always recoil toward the left? (I mean positive left and negative right would mean strictly left kick)
    Another note, symthic data crackers said (tho I can't find the link again) that recoil/spread is "tamable" up to a certain TIME. So it seems for each weapon there is a certain time during which the weapon will react/recoil always the same way in a pattern that can be learned and controlled, but after said time, it becomes completely random thus impossible to control (at least for the horizontal recoil).
  • Major_Pungspark
    1389 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2018
    Well, you get added more random spread, it increases when you fire on automatic (Usually, see lmg:s Bf1 for the opposite.). So the more you hold the button you get first a recoil throw to the right or left and then a bigger random cone of fire the longer you hold the button. That was like the dirty version of it.

    Now for smg:s you get kind of okay first round accuracy, after that you get a big left/right recoil, and the more you fire the more the random cone expands to add to the mess . So even if the cone never increased the big left/right recoil would still make sure they would suck on automatic, but you would never start to miss more on a mag dump...lul...

    Plus minus is just left or right I assumed, or it would just end up at 0.
  • VindictiV_V
    1347 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Well, you get added more random spread, it increases when you fire on automatic (Usually, see lmg:s Bf1 for the opposite.). So the more you hold the button you get first a recoil throw to the right or left and then a bigger random cone of fire the longer you hold the button. That was like the dirty version of it.

    Now for smg:s you get kind of okay first round accuracy, after that you get a big left/right recoil, and the more you fire the more the random cone expands to add to the mess . So even if the cone never increased the big left/right recoil would still make sure they would suck on automatic, but you would never start to miss more on a mag dump...lul...

    Plus minus is just left or right I assumed, or it would just end up at 0.

    Nah, that is comon knowledge (recoil as an increasing cone metaphore), it's just I was surprised there was positive recoil for the left side and negative for the right side. But anyway, we're going off topic now.

    There definitly needs to be a TTK advantage to using SMGs at 20m or under and it's definitly not the case atm (thx to lower RoF for all SMGs excluding thomp/suo) and it will be even worse on the 4th.
  • VincentNZ
    2592 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    This is a huge part by the way:
    ADSStandRecoilLeft: 0.475*
    ADSStandRecoilRight: -0.475*

    If the recoil sends every bullit to the sides of the enemy you can buff them to the moon and it will still kill nothing, unless you single shot, the longer out, the more the bullet will miss the target.

    Hmm, that is only for the Suomi though, and similar to how the P90 or the SR-2 worked. I think recoil is overestimated in SMGs. It is still controllable, and you will have the recoil spec equipped in any case. Further the Suomi is the weapon that will kill fastest within the hipfire niche meaning you will also receive less damage in that engagement.
    And I stand by it, and my stats support this in my case, my Suomi accuracy is 3% lower than my Sten and MP40 accuracy, and that is with overkilling the target from a higher ROF weapon and with higher recoil. The spread is the problem, as you will burst the Suomi anyway, reducing your overall spread.
    I just used the KE7 for just a few minutes and there is basically spread and very controllable recoil, paired with a 4-5HK at all relevant ranges, with a higher ROF. Basically what the MP40 and Sten should be with a higher BTK.
    The SMGs would have also greatly profited from the new spread mechanics, but for some obscure reason, they chose to not use it on them and the ARs. God knows why they did that.
    To fix the SMGs you first have to think within the class, and that would mean reducing recoil on the higher ROF weapons, decreasing SIPS on the lower ROF weapons so they fill a niche within the class, and then think globally, by either adjusting the damage ranges, remove the spread/recoil duality, or use it for the MGs as well, and/or nerf the MGs substantially the ARs slightly and semi-autos close to mid-range capability.
    -
    Or you could increase smoke grenades to 4 or more, so that the Medic can always meet the enemy on his terms. Smoke is the great equalizer.
  • VindictiV_V
    1347 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    VincentNZ wrote: »
    This is a huge part by the way:
    ADSStandRecoilLeft: 0.475*
    ADSStandRecoilRight: -0.475*

    If the recoil sends every bullit to the sides of the enemy you can buff them to the moon and it will still kill nothing, unless you single shot, the longer out, the more the bullet will miss the target.

    Hmm, that is only for the Suomi though, and similar to how the P90 or the SR-2 worked. I think recoil is overestimated in SMGs. It is still controllable, and you will have the recoil spec equipped in any case. Further the Suomi is the weapon that will kill fastest within the hipfire niche meaning you will also receive less damage in that engagement.
    And I stand by it, and my stats support this in my case, my Suomi accuracy is 3% lower than my Sten and MP40 accuracy, and that is with overkilling the target from a higher ROF weapon and with higher recoil. The spread is the problem, as you will burst the Suomi anyway, reducing your overall spread.
    I just used the KE7 for just a few minutes and there is basically spread and very controllable recoil, paired with a 4-5HK at all relevant ranges, with a higher ROF. Basically what the MP40 and Sten should be with a higher BTK.
    The SMGs would have also greatly profited from the new spread mechanics, but for some obscure reason, they chose to not use it on them and the ARs. God knows why they did that.
    To fix the SMGs you first have to think within the class, and that would mean reducing recoil on the higher ROF weapons, decreasing SIPS on the lower ROF weapons so they fill a niche within the class, and then think globally, by either adjusting the damage ranges, remove the spread/recoil duality, or use it for the MGs as well, and/or nerf the MGs substantially the ARs slightly and semi-autos close to mid-range capability.
    -
    Or you could increase smoke grenades to 4 or more, so that the Medic can always meet the enemy on his terms. Smoke is the great equalizer.

    I agree with everything but the last part about smokes. They are so hard to resupply (at least the smoke tube gadget), the covered area is really small and it's so easy for MGs and LMGs to just fire through the cloud until they get hitmarkers. I mean, I wouldn't say no to being able to carry more but smokes in general need a buff imo.

    For the rest I totally agree, all SMGs need an accuracy buff but slower RoF ones definitly need a SIPS reduction while also keeping their 5BTK range further than the joke of 25/30m we have/will have. I also strongly believe they should nerf ARs, LMGs and MGs so they are 5BTK from 0 to 50m. They are supposed to be medium range intended weapons, not CQC.
  • Major_Pungspark
    1389 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    VincentNZ wrote: »
    This is a huge part by the way:
    ADSStandRecoilLeft: 0.475*
    ADSStandRecoilRight: -0.475*

    If the recoil sends every bullit to the sides of the enemy you can buff them to the moon and it will still kill nothing, unless you single shot, the longer out, the more the bullet will miss the target.

    Hmm, that is only for the Suomi though, and similar to how the P90 or the SR-2 worked. I think recoil is overestimated in SMGs. It is still controllable, and you will have the recoil spec equipped in any case. Further the Suomi is the weapon that will kill fastest within the hipfire niche meaning you will also receive less damage in that engagement.
    And I stand by it, and my stats support this in my case, my Suomi accuracy is 3% lower than my Sten and MP40 accuracy, and that is with overkilling the target from a higher ROF weapon and with higher recoil. The spread is the problem, as you will burst the Suomi anyway, reducing your overall spread.
    I just used the KE7 for just a few minutes and there is basically spread and very controllable recoil, paired with a 4-5HK at all relevant ranges, with a higher ROF. Basically what the MP40 and Sten should be with a higher BTK.
    The SMGs would have also greatly profited from the new spread mechanics, but for some obscure reason, they chose to not use it on them and the ARs. God knows why they did that.
    To fix the SMGs you first have to think within the class, and that would mean reducing recoil on the higher ROF weapons, decreasing SIPS on the lower ROF weapons so they fill a niche within the class, and then think globally, by either adjusting the damage ranges, remove the spread/recoil duality, or use it for the MGs as well, and/or nerf the MGs substantially the ARs slightly and semi-autos close to mid-range capability.
    -
    Or you could increase smoke grenades to 4 or more, so that the Medic can always meet the enemy on his terms. Smoke is the great equalizer.

    I agree with everything but the last part about smokes. They are so hard to resupply (at least the smoke tube gadget), the covered area is really small and it's so easy for MGs and LMGs to just fire through the cloud until they get hitmarkers. I mean, I wouldn't say no to being able to carry more but smokes in general need a buff imo.

    For the rest I totally agree, all SMGs need an accuracy buff but slower RoF ones definitly need a SIPS reduction while also keeping their 5BTK range further than the joke of 25/30m we have/will have. I also strongly believe they should nerf ARs, LMGs and MGs so they are 5BTK from 0 to 50m. They are supposed to be medium range intended weapons, not CQC.

    I still have no idea how the missed the chance to give smg:s an area to shine a little, by instead of nerfing the supports to five they upped the assaults to have a bigger chance against supports.
  • SunnyTheWerewolf
    266 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    kleerkoat wrote: »
    i think the people saying the medic doesn't need any changes has probably never put in the time playing one.


    I guess some people choose to adapt rather than waste time wondering what could or should have been.

    And I've been a medic main since BF1942, which is why I'm fine with going back to the roots - as in medics having SMGs like in the original.

    I'm not saying changes to the weapon balance wouldn't be welcome, but I'd be fine with playing medic as it is for the remainder of this release's life cycle.
  • VindictiV_V
    1347 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    kleerkoat wrote: »
    i think the people saying the medic doesn't need any changes has probably never put in the time playing one.


    I guess some people choose to adapt rather than waste time wondering what could or should have been.

    And I've been a medic main since BF1942, which is why I'm fine with going back to the roots - as in medics having SMGs like in the original.

    I'm not saying changes to the weapon balance wouldn't be welcome, but I'd be fine with playing medic as it is for the remainder of this release's life cycle.

    Asking for medics to be buffed on the forums (or complaining how bad SMGs are) doesn't mean the person doesn't "adapt" ingame as well. Also, what is it you want from posting that? An applause? Make yourself feel special?
  • SunnyTheWerewolf
    266 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    kleerkoat wrote: »
    i think the people saying the medic doesn't need any changes has probably never put in the time playing one.


    I guess some people choose to adapt rather than waste time wondering what could or should have been.

    And I've been a medic main since BF1942, which is why I'm fine with going back to the roots - as in medics having SMGs like in the original.

    I'm not saying changes to the weapon balance wouldn't be welcome, but I'd be fine with playing medic as it is for the remainder of this release's life cycle.

    Asking for medics to be buffed on the forums (or complaining how bad SMGs are) doesn't mean the person doesn't "adapt" ingame as well. Also, what is it you want from posting that? An applause? Make yourself feel special?


    It was a counter to the post I quoted (not by you), which in practice said that the only people not having a huge problem with the state of things at the moment were the ones not playing medic.

    My purpose was to comment that this statement wasn't true or at least was a gross exaggeration.

    I stated my point of view calmly, but for some reason you felt the need to make it personal - I just don't know why?!
  • X_Sunslayer_X
    682 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    edited December 2018
    Vittich wrote: »
    I really don't know what all of you guys are having troubles with...

    The Medic guns are in a different spot now than before, luckily.
    In Bf2 they had Assault rifles, in BF3 and BF4 as well.
    And honestly: This was far too OP. Fully Assault-Rifle 4-man Squads running around the map killing everybody due to fairly OP guns (and reviving + healing themselfs)... wtf.
    I am SO glad they changed this - and I need to mention that as a medic main! <3 <3

    BF1 did a good job giving the Medics a weapon type which focusses on a more tactical gameplay... unfortunately they added the Fedorov then... :|
    .
    .
    Anyways - the BF1 medic weapons do NOT work for the BF5 medic and i explain you why:
    .
    Now every class except has low selfhealing (or none if already used your 1-time heal).
    That means: If medics would have acurate, long-distance rifles they could just camp over range and win nearly every fight (hidden behind a stone healing themselfes up).
    .
    .
    Therefore there is no other option than giving the medics a PDW / short-range carbine.
    .
    Just get used to the new playstyle and don't think Medic is still an Assault. It's not. It's a real medic now, wielding a personal defence weapon (PDW).

    Maybe reviving isn't satisfying currently, but now our medic heals are very important!

    but we are still playing a casual shooter where the main gameplay revolves around shooting your guns and that is just a fact. yes healing and reviving should be your main objective but how am i supposed to revive if i cant engage the guy 25m in the open with an STG who killed my team-mate on a flank and since supports camp their **** off and rarely resupply you are out of smokes and you really want to keep your team alive but hey bad luck right....
    The guns are not suited it baffles me that EVERY class has at least two option to go and play the game. AR/Semi-Auto LMG/MMG/Shotguns bolt action/SLR and we get fast firing mag-dump SMG'S and the rest...
    That is really limiting imo and i hate being forced into one playstyle and i played the medic for 30ish hours on the ground as medic and it feels like a chore most of the time.
    I sacrifice my own enjoyment so i can keep the others alive and see them having all the fun while praying i dont get a HS since you might be the only medic far and wide and your squad doesnt care for the buddy revive....
    and why wouldn't the semi-auto rifles work for the medic why not give it a try because then i can sustain mid-range gun fights still smoke their positions and advance with my entire team as a unit...
    we can give it a try at least and if they turn out to be the most op class in the game it can still be addressed in patches.
    becasue the only class that really suffers from attrition is the medic he needs more BTK and his weapons.
    And i doubt that the players who are currently sticking with the medic will camp their **** off on the maps corners because their are already enough snipers and MMG's ;)
    also the casual who just starts BFV or BF in general will not play the medic since his weapons are the worst and every other class is just way more accessible...
    and looking at your stats you being a"medic-main" is just a blatant lie
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