Do we have cheaters?

Comments

  • full951
    2465 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    Vycinas2 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    stiny1838 wrote: »
    would using a joystick for a flying game or a steering wheel for a driving game be considered cheating?

    No because they don't change the way the car or plane handles they are purely for better immersion, using a m&kb does give advantages like faster target acquisition and the abillity to adad spam while you keep your sights locked on your opponents head.

    using mouse and keyboard with an emulators does not change the way character movement handles. MnK does not give the advantage of faster target acquisition. it does not change the rules, it does not change the speed. it does not. give adad spam to any degree more than a controller can do it. it does not change the rules or speed. it does not lock on to anything. there is no aim assist or lock abilities added.

    It does sort of feel more natural in that instead of pushing a stick to move the reticle to the target you are moving your hand to the target. When I played PC I did a lot better than I do on console. But aside from that (which is totally my opinion) there is no advantage. In fact if you do a real direct comparison of MnK on PS4 to MnK on PC you will most likely find a disadvantage on PS4 because of the driver and firmware lag that is present because you have to have some sort of translator because a PC is designed for those inputs natively and PS4 doesn't.

    At least someone speaks sense here in this pointless discussion. Bad players will always find a reason to blame something for their own incompetence. They think if you use mnk it turns you into super aiming and destroyer god, but they fail to understand that all this mnk does is just emulates the controller input, its pretty much a controller with different layout and mouse, nothing compared to raw input of the mouse on PC.

    yeah, from what i understand is that with the right configuration of XIM and ingame settings u can get a 90-95% PC Feel. There will always be some accelaration issues when using a XIM.

    I guess that all depends on your definition of "pc feel". cuz from a standpoint of its a mouse and keyboard, sure sitting down and having a mouse in one hand and keyboard in the other is 100% "pc feel"

    what I think most are worried about is its performance compared to that of native mouse and keyboard support on pc. it is just as far away from native support as a controller is. because they operate under the same parameters, limitations, rules ect. if the emulators operated outside the bounds of what a controller could do, the emulators would be locked out. everyone seems to think the emulators are "tricking" the console. not true. the emulators are complying by following the rules set by the console and the game. it's as if some people think the emulators gain access or bypass the consoles security systems. that just isn't happening

    you seriously say that an emulator is not a bypass? lol... just lol. do you think that the main focus of a system that doesn't allow plug and play with an mnk is to just conserve the limitation that are generated when working with controller input? you clearly try to define the mean of action as the underlying reason. the intention behind not allowing plug and play mnk is to not allow mnk... not to have a system that doesnt allow unlimited turning speed and relatively small key binding options.
    the whole reason why such adapters even exist is because people want to use an mnk (mostly for shooter games) on consoles as well but the console/games don't feature the option to do that. to BYPASS these restrictions the adapter comes into play. its as easy as that....
    if it was about the system console manufacturers would just integrate a plug and play option for mnk featuring the restrictions of controller input, but clearly thats not the intention. (remark: the intention behind a system is obviously important to take into consideration when talking about "bypassing" it. if we took the system itself then everything that works on that system would not be a bypass by definition which would make the concept of a bypass obsolete.)
    the anti recoil or auto spotting scripts of a cronus max "are complying by following the rules set by the console and the game" as well by this very definition. so theres two possibilities:
    1. you deny that they comply and hence have to change your definition
    2. you agree they comply and hence your argument doesnt hold any value as we can apply it as well to something that is clearly cheating. we can even apply it to the case of someone breaking into someone elses bank account. the "hacker" can argue: "i played by the rules of your security system but i won" and hence he would not have "bypassed" the security system which is absurd (as mentioned in the first remark)
    (second remark: no i don't compare hacking someones bank account to using an mnk adapter on console. i use the hack of a bank account to show that this definition leads to ad absurdum.)

    everything I said stands. you wanna compair it to hacking and stealing from bank accounts. I'm telling you all it does is give controller input. what's being stolen? nothing. where is the cheating? none to be found. it's player input that follows the rules set by the system it operates on. it controls the controller. you mention there's no plug in play for those perifials. this is the solution for that. and the console manufacturers and devs have noticed the demand. hence the officially licensed mouse and keyboard products and roll out of support that's happening as we speak.

    you have a huge misunderstanding of why mouse and keyboards don't come with consoles. there's more one reason, none of them are to prevent you from using mouse and keyboard because its unfair in a shooter game. one major reason is because they want the console to be the center piece of your entertainment system in the living room. if it came with a mouse and keyboard you would likely not put it in your living room front and center for the multiple digital market places to be exposed to the household. if it came with mouse and keyboard you'd treat it like a computer, and place it on a desk in the corner or a small room exposing it to less people in the house. ask yourself, what is a modern console really? It's A Pay Point. it's like those electric scooters popping up in cities. those are not scooters. those are credit card readers. it's about money and coercing you to spend more on it. got Netflix? Hulu? first party market place for movies? most games have a market place in the game. and the devs just go along with it and make games that support controllers. much like the manufacturers don't have an issue with the emulators, neither do the devs. even the over watch devs who took issue asked for it to be available to all.... well.. what do you think is happening? it's available to all.

    ah come on man :weary:
    i literally ended my comment with a remark pointing out that im not comparing the two and you start of your reply by saying i compare them. why do i even bother putting the remarks if you don't read them anyways...

    regardless, all that is kind of a response to what i said is the whole thing about why mnk doesn't come with consoles. but even there u actually missed the point. i never spoke about consoles coming with mnk. i spoke about consoles allowing plug and play mnk. i would say that an mnk just isn't a viable choice for a system that should be able to serve as a multimedia entertainment system in the living room simply because you can't conveniently use an mnk without a desk and hence this probably is in deed a reason why it doesn't come with mnk but its not a reason to not allow plug and play mnk. and that is what i said....

    so yeah i don't know... maybe reread and try again? like we can talk about the stuff you mentioned as well but i'd like you to realise that your argument about emulators not "bypassing" anything doesn't make sense first.

    you said it. so I have to address it. it's the very first point you drive the whole post on. so yes. it's how I start my response. because that's the comparison you made. no little tag line at the end changes that.

    you talk about why it is the way it is. I told you why it is the way it is. it's obvious the console didn't come with a mouse and keyboard, you didn't have to say it did not, to get that response. you seem to think there's an active effort to keep mouse and keyboard off the console, and misinterpret the lack of plug n play as evidence of such an effort.

    it's just years of console dogma, and uninformed users. as you see, the more the player base becomes informed of their perifial options, it's use increases. you give people options, they take them. this here is a excellent option for anyone who so chooses to use it. the manufacturer may have an intent for it to be the living room entertainment center piece, but I think you're a human of your own free will so you should understand that's not what everyone wants from it and they will use a console how they see fit. if you don't have a desk, this in no way prevents you from using mouse and keyboard on your couch. it's 2019. that "problem" was solved years ago. if that's not what you would do. that's fine, do. what you want. your console.

    as for it by passing. I said it wasn't accessing or by passing any security measures. cuz if it was, I think you know how the console manufacturers feel about that.

    a remark doesnt definition or a proof. a remark is simply there to make the reader aware of something that is already there, but might not be taken into consideration by a reader. so i didn't not compare it because i said i didnt in the remark but because i didnt. now i wrote that because i thought you would understand once you think about it but thats apparently not the case. so i guess i have to explain it to you:
    you seem to be confusing two different argumentative concepts here. the first one is to use comparison in order to lead the initial arguemnt to ad absurdum. more precisely: its comparing A and B (putting them on the same level) to apply certain statements, that follow from A, to B also. the second one is to take an implication A -> B and simply find a counterexample.
    now you act like i used the first technique while i actually used the second. i did not claim similarities between using an mnk adapter and hacking a back account and hence deduce that using a mnk adapter is clearly tricking the system. i used your definition (which is an implication as well of course) to deduce that hacking a bankaccount could not be considered "tricking the system" or "bypassing" it.
    again: using a counterexample to prove an implication wrong is not equivalent to comparing the counterexample (hack) to the originally used example (emulator use).
    got it?

    "you seem to think there's an active effort to keep mouse and keyboard off the console" ... no surprise here, still unable to simply comprehend what im writing rather than interpreting things. regardless i do acknowledge the relevance of this question regarding my initial post so i will state my opinion on the matter. i do not believe that there is an active effort to keep mnk off of consoles in general. however making the conscious decision to not support native mnk in a game is clear evidence for the underlying intention to not support mnk in this specific scenario. maybe some developers don't mind the adapters, maybe none of them mind it but they might for example be aware that a significant amount of people in the community would mind it and hence don't implement it. the argument of laziness is ridiculous considering it wouldn't take more than a straight pc port to implement it.

    and then you go on about more things you simply couldn't read properly. all i did was agreeing with you partially by saying that the console should BE ABLE TO serve as a multimedia entertainment system in the living room and that making it come with a mnk instead of a controller would in deed (as you said as well) not make a lot of sense. you then somehow manage to translate this into me claiming that consoles should only be used in the living room and hence mnk should never be supported on console or whatever... like seriously wtf? :weary:

    ok true, you only used "bypass" in regards to security system, my apology. simply replace "bypassing" with "tricking" in whatever i said so far as that is the word you used in the part im referring to.

    I understand your comparisons, you say you mean otherwise but the use of such examples does imply. we both know in the past consoles never came with mouse and keyboard or support for it. but that has changed. until that gap is fully bridged adapters are here. all relevant parties involved are a ok with it.
  • The_BERG_366
    2438 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    Vycinas2 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    stiny1838 wrote: »
    would using a joystick for a flying game or a steering wheel for a driving game be considered cheating?

    No because they don't change the way the car or plane handles they are purely for better immersion, using a m&kb does give advantages like faster target acquisition and the abillity to adad spam while you keep your sights locked on your opponents head.

    using mouse and keyboard with an emulators does not change the way character movement handles. MnK does not give the advantage of faster target acquisition. it does not change the rules, it does not change the speed. it does not. give adad spam to any degree more than a controller can do it. it does not change the rules or speed. it does not lock on to anything. there is no aim assist or lock abilities added.

    It does sort of feel more natural in that instead of pushing a stick to move the reticle to the target you are moving your hand to the target. When I played PC I did a lot better than I do on console. But aside from that (which is totally my opinion) there is no advantage. In fact if you do a real direct comparison of MnK on PS4 to MnK on PC you will most likely find a disadvantage on PS4 because of the driver and firmware lag that is present because you have to have some sort of translator because a PC is designed for those inputs natively and PS4 doesn't.

    At least someone speaks sense here in this pointless discussion. Bad players will always find a reason to blame something for their own incompetence. They think if you use mnk it turns you into super aiming and destroyer god, but they fail to understand that all this mnk does is just emulates the controller input, its pretty much a controller with different layout and mouse, nothing compared to raw input of the mouse on PC.

    yeah, from what i understand is that with the right configuration of XIM and ingame settings u can get a 90-95% PC Feel. There will always be some accelaration issues when using a XIM.

    I guess that all depends on your definition of "pc feel". cuz from a standpoint of its a mouse and keyboard, sure sitting down and having a mouse in one hand and keyboard in the other is 100% "pc feel"

    what I think most are worried about is its performance compared to that of native mouse and keyboard support on pc. it is just as far away from native support as a controller is. because they operate under the same parameters, limitations, rules ect. if the emulators operated outside the bounds of what a controller could do, the emulators would be locked out. everyone seems to think the emulators are "tricking" the console. not true. the emulators are complying by following the rules set by the console and the game. it's as if some people think the emulators gain access or bypass the consoles security systems. that just isn't happening

    you seriously say that an emulator is not a bypass? lol... just lol. do you think that the main focus of a system that doesn't allow plug and play with an mnk is to just conserve the limitation that are generated when working with controller input? you clearly try to define the mean of action as the underlying reason. the intention behind not allowing plug and play mnk is to not allow mnk... not to have a system that doesnt allow unlimited turning speed and relatively small key binding options.
    the whole reason why such adapters even exist is because people want to use an mnk (mostly for shooter games) on consoles as well but the console/games don't feature the option to do that. to BYPASS these restrictions the adapter comes into play. its as easy as that....
    if it was about the system console manufacturers would just integrate a plug and play option for mnk featuring the restrictions of controller input, but clearly thats not the intention. (remark: the intention behind a system is obviously important to take into consideration when talking about "bypassing" it. if we took the system itself then everything that works on that system would not be a bypass by definition which would make the concept of a bypass obsolete.)
    the anti recoil or auto spotting scripts of a cronus max "are complying by following the rules set by the console and the game" as well by this very definition. so theres two possibilities:
    1. you deny that they comply and hence have to change your definition
    2. you agree they comply and hence your argument doesnt hold any value as we can apply it as well to something that is clearly cheating. we can even apply it to the case of someone breaking into someone elses bank account. the "hacker" can argue: "i played by the rules of your security system but i won" and hence he would not have "bypassed" the security system which is absurd (as mentioned in the first remark)
    (second remark: no i don't compare hacking someones bank account to using an mnk adapter on console. i use the hack of a bank account to show that this definition leads to ad absurdum.)

    everything I said stands. you wanna compair it to hacking and stealing from bank accounts. I'm telling you all it does is give controller input. what's being stolen? nothing. where is the cheating? none to be found. it's player input that follows the rules set by the system it operates on. it controls the controller. you mention there's no plug in play for those perifials. this is the solution for that. and the console manufacturers and devs have noticed the demand. hence the officially licensed mouse and keyboard products and roll out of support that's happening as we speak.

    you have a huge misunderstanding of why mouse and keyboards don't come with consoles. there's more one reason, none of them are to prevent you from using mouse and keyboard because its unfair in a shooter game. one major reason is because they want the console to be the center piece of your entertainment system in the living room. if it came with a mouse and keyboard you would likely not put it in your living room front and center for the multiple digital market places to be exposed to the household. if it came with mouse and keyboard you'd treat it like a computer, and place it on a desk in the corner or a small room exposing it to less people in the house. ask yourself, what is a modern console really? It's A Pay Point. it's like those electric scooters popping up in cities. those are not scooters. those are credit card readers. it's about money and coercing you to spend more on it. got Netflix? Hulu? first party market place for movies? most games have a market place in the game. and the devs just go along with it and make games that support controllers. much like the manufacturers don't have an issue with the emulators, neither do the devs. even the over watch devs who took issue asked for it to be available to all.... well.. what do you think is happening? it's available to all.

    ah come on man :weary:
    i literally ended my comment with a remark pointing out that im not comparing the two and you start of your reply by saying i compare them. why do i even bother putting the remarks if you don't read them anyways...

    regardless, all that is kind of a response to what i said is the whole thing about why mnk doesn't come with consoles. but even there u actually missed the point. i never spoke about consoles coming with mnk. i spoke about consoles allowing plug and play mnk. i would say that an mnk just isn't a viable choice for a system that should be able to serve as a multimedia entertainment system in the living room simply because you can't conveniently use an mnk without a desk and hence this probably is in deed a reason why it doesn't come with mnk but its not a reason to not allow plug and play mnk. and that is what i said....

    so yeah i don't know... maybe reread and try again? like we can talk about the stuff you mentioned as well but i'd like you to realise that your argument about emulators not "bypassing" anything doesn't make sense first.

    you said it. so I have to address it. it's the very first point you drive the whole post on. so yes. it's how I start my response. because that's the comparison you made. no little tag line at the end changes that.

    you talk about why it is the way it is. I told you why it is the way it is. it's obvious the console didn't come with a mouse and keyboard, you didn't have to say it did not, to get that response. you seem to think there's an active effort to keep mouse and keyboard off the console, and misinterpret the lack of plug n play as evidence of such an effort.

    it's just years of console dogma, and uninformed users. as you see, the more the player base becomes informed of their perifial options, it's use increases. you give people options, they take them. this here is a excellent option for anyone who so chooses to use it. the manufacturer may have an intent for it to be the living room entertainment center piece, but I think you're a human of your own free will so you should understand that's not what everyone wants from it and they will use a console how they see fit. if you don't have a desk, this in no way prevents you from using mouse and keyboard on your couch. it's 2019. that "problem" was solved years ago. if that's not what you would do. that's fine, do. what you want. your console.

    as for it by passing. I said it wasn't accessing or by passing any security measures. cuz if it was, I think you know how the console manufacturers feel about that.

    a remark doesnt definition or a proof. a remark is simply there to make the reader aware of something that is already there, but might not be taken into consideration by a reader. so i didn't not compare it because i said i didnt in the remark but because i didnt. now i wrote that because i thought you would understand once you think about it but thats apparently not the case. so i guess i have to explain it to you:
    you seem to be confusing two different argumentative concepts here. the first one is to use comparison in order to lead the initial arguemnt to ad absurdum. more precisely: its comparing A and B (putting them on the same level) to apply certain statements, that follow from A, to B also. the second one is to take an implication A -> B and simply find a counterexample.
    now you act like i used the first technique while i actually used the second. i did not claim similarities between using an mnk adapter and hacking a back account and hence deduce that using a mnk adapter is clearly tricking the system. i used your definition (which is an implication as well of course) to deduce that hacking a bankaccount could not be considered "tricking the system" or "bypassing" it.
    again: using a counterexample to prove an implication wrong is not equivalent to comparing the counterexample (hack) to the originally used example (emulator use).
    got it?

    "you seem to think there's an active effort to keep mouse and keyboard off the console" ... no surprise here, still unable to simply comprehend what im writing rather than interpreting things. regardless i do acknowledge the relevance of this question regarding my initial post so i will state my opinion on the matter. i do not believe that there is an active effort to keep mnk off of consoles in general. however making the conscious decision to not support native mnk in a game is clear evidence for the underlying intention to not support mnk in this specific scenario. maybe some developers don't mind the adapters, maybe none of them mind it but they might for example be aware that a significant amount of people in the community would mind it and hence don't implement it. the argument of laziness is ridiculous considering it wouldn't take more than a straight pc port to implement it.

    and then you go on about more things you simply couldn't read properly. all i did was agreeing with you partially by saying that the console should BE ABLE TO serve as a multimedia entertainment system in the living room and that making it come with a mnk instead of a controller would in deed (as you said as well) not make a lot of sense. you then somehow manage to translate this into me claiming that consoles should only be used in the living room and hence mnk should never be supported on console or whatever... like seriously wtf? :weary:

    ok true, you only used "bypass" in regards to security system, my apology. simply replace "bypassing" with "tricking" in whatever i said so far as that is the word you used in the part im referring to.

    I understand your comparisons, you say you mean otherwise but the use of such examples does imply. we both know in the past consoles never came with mouse and keyboard or support for it. but that has changed. until that gap is fully bridged adapters are here. all relevant parties involved are a ok with it.

    no it doesn't imply anything logically speaking. its not my problem if there are misconceptions or misinterpretations even if they are common. I'm not gonna waive the use of counterexamples just because some people aren't able to grasp this concept and hence make wrong conslusions.

    regardless, my initial point still stands...
  • Daytonaflyer
    92 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Mouse and keyboard is DEFINITELY cheating, no question about it. It needs to be banned.
  • full951
    2465 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    Vycinas2 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    stiny1838 wrote: »
    would using a joystick for a flying game or a steering wheel for a driving game be considered cheating?

    No because they don't change the way the car or plane handles they are purely for better immersion, using a m&kb does give advantages like faster target acquisition and the abillity to adad spam while you keep your sights locked on your opponents head.

    using mouse and keyboard with an emulators does not change the way character movement handles. MnK does not give the advantage of faster target acquisition. it does not change the rules, it does not change the speed. it does not. give adad spam to any degree more than a controller can do it. it does not change the rules or speed. it does not lock on to anything. there is no aim assist or lock abilities added.

    It does sort of feel more natural in that instead of pushing a stick to move the reticle to the target you are moving your hand to the target. When I played PC I did a lot better than I do on console. But aside from that (which is totally my opinion) there is no advantage. In fact if you do a real direct comparison of MnK on PS4 to MnK on PC you will most likely find a disadvantage on PS4 because of the driver and firmware lag that is present because you have to have some sort of translator because a PC is designed for those inputs natively and PS4 doesn't.

    At least someone speaks sense here in this pointless discussion. Bad players will always find a reason to blame something for their own incompetence. They think if you use mnk it turns you into super aiming and destroyer god, but they fail to understand that all this mnk does is just emulates the controller input, its pretty much a controller with different layout and mouse, nothing compared to raw input of the mouse on PC.

    yeah, from what i understand is that with the right configuration of XIM and ingame settings u can get a 90-95% PC Feel. There will always be some accelaration issues when using a XIM.

    I guess that all depends on your definition of "pc feel". cuz from a standpoint of its a mouse and keyboard, sure sitting down and having a mouse in one hand and keyboard in the other is 100% "pc feel"

    what I think most are worried about is its performance compared to that of native mouse and keyboard support on pc. it is just as far away from native support as a controller is. because they operate under the same parameters, limitations, rules ect. if the emulators operated outside the bounds of what a controller could do, the emulators would be locked out. everyone seems to think the emulators are "tricking" the console. not true. the emulators are complying by following the rules set by the console and the game. it's as if some people think the emulators gain access or bypass the consoles security systems. that just isn't happening

    you seriously say that an emulator is not a bypass? lol... just lol. do you think that the main focus of a system that doesn't allow plug and play with an mnk is to just conserve the limitation that are generated when working with controller input? you clearly try to define the mean of action as the underlying reason. the intention behind not allowing plug and play mnk is to not allow mnk... not to have a system that doesnt allow unlimited turning speed and relatively small key binding options.
    the whole reason why such adapters even exist is because people want to use an mnk (mostly for shooter games) on consoles as well but the console/games don't feature the option to do that. to BYPASS these restrictions the adapter comes into play. its as easy as that....
    if it was about the system console manufacturers would just integrate a plug and play option for mnk featuring the restrictions of controller input, but clearly thats not the intention. (remark: the intention behind a system is obviously important to take into consideration when talking about "bypassing" it. if we took the system itself then everything that works on that system would not be a bypass by definition which would make the concept of a bypass obsolete.)
    the anti recoil or auto spotting scripts of a cronus max "are complying by following the rules set by the console and the game" as well by this very definition. so theres two possibilities:
    1. you deny that they comply and hence have to change your definition
    2. you agree they comply and hence your argument doesnt hold any value as we can apply it as well to something that is clearly cheating. we can even apply it to the case of someone breaking into someone elses bank account. the "hacker" can argue: "i played by the rules of your security system but i won" and hence he would not have "bypassed" the security system which is absurd (as mentioned in the first remark)
    (second remark: no i don't compare hacking someones bank account to using an mnk adapter on console. i use the hack of a bank account to show that this definition leads to ad absurdum.)

    everything I said stands. you wanna compair it to hacking and stealing from bank accounts. I'm telling you all it does is give controller input. what's being stolen? nothing. where is the cheating? none to be found. it's player input that follows the rules set by the system it operates on. it controls the controller. you mention there's no plug in play for those perifials. this is the solution for that. and the console manufacturers and devs have noticed the demand. hence the officially licensed mouse and keyboard products and roll out of support that's happening as we speak.

    you have a huge misunderstanding of why mouse and keyboards don't come with consoles. there's more one reason, none of them are to prevent you from using mouse and keyboard because its unfair in a shooter game. one major reason is because they want the console to be the center piece of your entertainment system in the living room. if it came with a mouse and keyboard you would likely not put it in your living room front and center for the multiple digital market places to be exposed to the household. if it came with mouse and keyboard you'd treat it like a computer, and place it on a desk in the corner or a small room exposing it to less people in the house. ask yourself, what is a modern console really? It's A Pay Point. it's like those electric scooters popping up in cities. those are not scooters. those are credit card readers. it's about money and coercing you to spend more on it. got Netflix? Hulu? first party market place for movies? most games have a market place in the game. and the devs just go along with it and make games that support controllers. much like the manufacturers don't have an issue with the emulators, neither do the devs. even the over watch devs who took issue asked for it to be available to all.... well.. what do you think is happening? it's available to all.

    ah come on man :weary:
    i literally ended my comment with a remark pointing out that im not comparing the two and you start of your reply by saying i compare them. why do i even bother putting the remarks if you don't read them anyways...

    regardless, all that is kind of a response to what i said is the whole thing about why mnk doesn't come with consoles. but even there u actually missed the point. i never spoke about consoles coming with mnk. i spoke about consoles allowing plug and play mnk. i would say that an mnk just isn't a viable choice for a system that should be able to serve as a multimedia entertainment system in the living room simply because you can't conveniently use an mnk without a desk and hence this probably is in deed a reason why it doesn't come with mnk but its not a reason to not allow plug and play mnk. and that is what i said....

    so yeah i don't know... maybe reread and try again? like we can talk about the stuff you mentioned as well but i'd like you to realise that your argument about emulators not "bypassing" anything doesn't make sense first.

    you said it. so I have to address it. it's the very first point you drive the whole post on. so yes. it's how I start my response. because that's the comparison you made. no little tag line at the end changes that.

    you talk about why it is the way it is. I told you why it is the way it is. it's obvious the console didn't come with a mouse and keyboard, you didn't have to say it did not, to get that response. you seem to think there's an active effort to keep mouse and keyboard off the console, and misinterpret the lack of plug n play as evidence of such an effort.

    it's just years of console dogma, and uninformed users. as you see, the more the player base becomes informed of their perifial options, it's use increases. you give people options, they take them. this here is a excellent option for anyone who so chooses to use it. the manufacturer may have an intent for it to be the living room entertainment center piece, but I think you're a human of your own free will so you should understand that's not what everyone wants from it and they will use a console how they see fit. if you don't have a desk, this in no way prevents you from using mouse and keyboard on your couch. it's 2019. that "problem" was solved years ago. if that's not what you would do. that's fine, do. what you want. your console.

    as for it by passing. I said it wasn't accessing or by passing any security measures. cuz if it was, I think you know how the console manufacturers feel about that.

    a remark doesnt definition or a proof. a remark is simply there to make the reader aware of something that is already there, but might not be taken into consideration by a reader. so i didn't not compare it because i said i didnt in the remark but because i didnt. now i wrote that because i thought you would understand once you think about it but thats apparently not the case. so i guess i have to explain it to you:
    you seem to be confusing two different argumentative concepts here. the first one is to use comparison in order to lead the initial arguemnt to ad absurdum. more precisely: its comparing A and B (putting them on the same level) to apply certain statements, that follow from A, to B also. the second one is to take an implication A -> B and simply find a counterexample.
    now you act like i used the first technique while i actually used the second. i did not claim similarities between using an mnk adapter and hacking a back account and hence deduce that using a mnk adapter is clearly tricking the system. i used your definition (which is an implication as well of course) to deduce that hacking a bankaccount could not be considered "tricking the system" or "bypassing" it.
    again: using a counterexample to prove an implication wrong is not equivalent to comparing the counterexample (hack) to the originally used example (emulator use).
    got it?

    "you seem to think there's an active effort to keep mouse and keyboard off the console" ... no surprise here, still unable to simply comprehend what im writing rather than interpreting things. regardless i do acknowledge the relevance of this question regarding my initial post so i will state my opinion on the matter. i do not believe that there is an active effort to keep mnk off of consoles in general. however making the conscious decision to not support native mnk in a game is clear evidence for the underlying intention to not support mnk in this specific scenario. maybe some developers don't mind the adapters, maybe none of them mind it but they might for example be aware that a significant amount of people in the community would mind it and hence don't implement it. the argument of laziness is ridiculous considering it wouldn't take more than a straight pc port to implement it.

    and then you go on about more things you simply couldn't read properly. all i did was agreeing with you partially by saying that the console should BE ABLE TO serve as a multimedia entertainment system in the living room and that making it come with a mnk instead of a controller would in deed (as you said as well) not make a lot of sense. you then somehow manage to translate this into me claiming that consoles should only be used in the living room and hence mnk should never be supported on console or whatever... like seriously wtf? :weary:

    ok true, you only used "bypass" in regards to security system, my apology. simply replace "bypassing" with "tricking" in whatever i said so far as that is the word you used in the part im referring to.

    I understand your comparisons, you say you mean otherwise but the use of such examples does imply. we both know in the past consoles never came with mouse and keyboard or support for it. but that has changed. until that gap is fully bridged adapters are here. all relevant parties involved are a ok with it.

    no it doesn't imply anything logically speaking. its not my problem if there are misconceptions or misinterpretations even if they are common. I'm not gonna waive the use of counterexamples just because some people aren't able to grasp this concept and hence make wrong conslusions.

    regardless, my initial point still stands...

    yes it does imply. your initial point does not stand because you did jump to the wrong conclusion about what I had said. none of what we said about that even matters. mouse and keyboard is a legitimate controller. the consoles' system does allow it. even it's emulated use. and no, not allowed in the sence a hack breaking in to a banks security system "was allowed". the console manufacturers and devs are more than aware and have the ability to identify and stop it if they want. the devs don't consider it in their scope of responsibility to police, it's not their ecosystem and if the console manufacturers are fine with it so are they.
  • -Antares65z
    1666 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Mouse and keyboard is DEFINITELY cheating, no question about it. It needs to be banned.

    You'll lose half the players if you ban M&K. More are using it then care to admit.
  • The_BERG_366
    2438 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    Vycinas2 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    stiny1838 wrote: »
    would using a joystick for a flying game or a steering wheel for a driving game be considered cheating?

    No because they don't change the way the car or plane handles they are purely for better immersion, using a m&kb does give advantages like faster target acquisition and the abillity to adad spam while you keep your sights locked on your opponents head.

    using mouse and keyboard with an emulators does not change the way character movement handles. MnK does not give the advantage of faster target acquisition. it does not change the rules, it does not change the speed. it does not. give adad spam to any degree more than a controller can do it. it does not change the rules or speed. it does not lock on to anything. there is no aim assist or lock abilities added.

    It does sort of feel more natural in that instead of pushing a stick to move the reticle to the target you are moving your hand to the target. When I played PC I did a lot better than I do on console. But aside from that (which is totally my opinion) there is no advantage. In fact if you do a real direct comparison of MnK on PS4 to MnK on PC you will most likely find a disadvantage on PS4 because of the driver and firmware lag that is present because you have to have some sort of translator because a PC is designed for those inputs natively and PS4 doesn't.

    At least someone speaks sense here in this pointless discussion. Bad players will always find a reason to blame something for their own incompetence. They think if you use mnk it turns you into super aiming and destroyer god, but they fail to understand that all this mnk does is just emulates the controller input, its pretty much a controller with different layout and mouse, nothing compared to raw input of the mouse on PC.

    yeah, from what i understand is that with the right configuration of XIM and ingame settings u can get a 90-95% PC Feel. There will always be some accelaration issues when using a XIM.

    I guess that all depends on your definition of "pc feel". cuz from a standpoint of its a mouse and keyboard, sure sitting down and having a mouse in one hand and keyboard in the other is 100% "pc feel"

    what I think most are worried about is its performance compared to that of native mouse and keyboard support on pc. it is just as far away from native support as a controller is. because they operate under the same parameters, limitations, rules ect. if the emulators operated outside the bounds of what a controller could do, the emulators would be locked out. everyone seems to think the emulators are "tricking" the console. not true. the emulators are complying by following the rules set by the console and the game. it's as if some people think the emulators gain access or bypass the consoles security systems. that just isn't happening

    you seriously say that an emulator is not a bypass? lol... just lol. do you think that the main focus of a system that doesn't allow plug and play with an mnk is to just conserve the limitation that are generated when working with controller input? you clearly try to define the mean of action as the underlying reason. the intention behind not allowing plug and play mnk is to not allow mnk... not to have a system that doesnt allow unlimited turning speed and relatively small key binding options.
    the whole reason why such adapters even exist is because people want to use an mnk (mostly for shooter games) on consoles as well but the console/games don't feature the option to do that. to BYPASS these restrictions the adapter comes into play. its as easy as that....
    if it was about the system console manufacturers would just integrate a plug and play option for mnk featuring the restrictions of controller input, but clearly thats not the intention. (remark: the intention behind a system is obviously important to take into consideration when talking about "bypassing" it. if we took the system itself then everything that works on that system would not be a bypass by definition which would make the concept of a bypass obsolete.)
    the anti recoil or auto spotting scripts of a cronus max "are complying by following the rules set by the console and the game" as well by this very definition. so theres two possibilities:
    1. you deny that they comply and hence have to change your definition
    2. you agree they comply and hence your argument doesnt hold any value as we can apply it as well to something that is clearly cheating. we can even apply it to the case of someone breaking into someone elses bank account. the "hacker" can argue: "i played by the rules of your security system but i won" and hence he would not have "bypassed" the security system which is absurd (as mentioned in the first remark)
    (second remark: no i don't compare hacking someones bank account to using an mnk adapter on console. i use the hack of a bank account to show that this definition leads to ad absurdum.)

    everything I said stands. you wanna compair it to hacking and stealing from bank accounts. I'm telling you all it does is give controller input. what's being stolen? nothing. where is the cheating? none to be found. it's player input that follows the rules set by the system it operates on. it controls the controller. you mention there's no plug in play for those perifials. this is the solution for that. and the console manufacturers and devs have noticed the demand. hence the officially licensed mouse and keyboard products and roll out of support that's happening as we speak.

    you have a huge misunderstanding of why mouse and keyboards don't come with consoles. there's more one reason, none of them are to prevent you from using mouse and keyboard because its unfair in a shooter game. one major reason is because they want the console to be the center piece of your entertainment system in the living room. if it came with a mouse and keyboard you would likely not put it in your living room front and center for the multiple digital market places to be exposed to the household. if it came with mouse and keyboard you'd treat it like a computer, and place it on a desk in the corner or a small room exposing it to less people in the house. ask yourself, what is a modern console really? It's A Pay Point. it's like those electric scooters popping up in cities. those are not scooters. those are credit card readers. it's about money and coercing you to spend more on it. got Netflix? Hulu? first party market place for movies? most games have a market place in the game. and the devs just go along with it and make games that support controllers. much like the manufacturers don't have an issue with the emulators, neither do the devs. even the over watch devs who took issue asked for it to be available to all.... well.. what do you think is happening? it's available to all.

    ah come on man :weary:
    i literally ended my comment with a remark pointing out that im not comparing the two and you start of your reply by saying i compare them. why do i even bother putting the remarks if you don't read them anyways...

    regardless, all that is kind of a response to what i said is the whole thing about why mnk doesn't come with consoles. but even there u actually missed the point. i never spoke about consoles coming with mnk. i spoke about consoles allowing plug and play mnk. i would say that an mnk just isn't a viable choice for a system that should be able to serve as a multimedia entertainment system in the living room simply because you can't conveniently use an mnk without a desk and hence this probably is in deed a reason why it doesn't come with mnk but its not a reason to not allow plug and play mnk. and that is what i said....

    so yeah i don't know... maybe reread and try again? like we can talk about the stuff you mentioned as well but i'd like you to realise that your argument about emulators not "bypassing" anything doesn't make sense first.

    you said it. so I have to address it. it's the very first point you drive the whole post on. so yes. it's how I start my response. because that's the comparison you made. no little tag line at the end changes that.

    you talk about why it is the way it is. I told you why it is the way it is. it's obvious the console didn't come with a mouse and keyboard, you didn't have to say it did not, to get that response. you seem to think there's an active effort to keep mouse and keyboard off the console, and misinterpret the lack of plug n play as evidence of such an effort.

    it's just years of console dogma, and uninformed users. as you see, the more the player base becomes informed of their perifial options, it's use increases. you give people options, they take them. this here is a excellent option for anyone who so chooses to use it. the manufacturer may have an intent for it to be the living room entertainment center piece, but I think you're a human of your own free will so you should understand that's not what everyone wants from it and they will use a console how they see fit. if you don't have a desk, this in no way prevents you from using mouse and keyboard on your couch. it's 2019. that "problem" was solved years ago. if that's not what you would do. that's fine, do. what you want. your console.

    as for it by passing. I said it wasn't accessing or by passing any security measures. cuz if it was, I think you know how the console manufacturers feel about that.

    a remark doesnt definition or a proof. a remark is simply there to make the reader aware of something that is already there, but might not be taken into consideration by a reader. so i didn't not compare it because i said i didnt in the remark but because i didnt. now i wrote that because i thought you would understand once you think about it but thats apparently not the case. so i guess i have to explain it to you:
    you seem to be confusing two different argumentative concepts here. the first one is to use comparison in order to lead the initial arguemnt to ad absurdum. more precisely: its comparing A and B (putting them on the same level) to apply certain statements, that follow from A, to B also. the second one is to take an implication A -> B and simply find a counterexample.
    now you act like i used the first technique while i actually used the second. i did not claim similarities between using an mnk adapter and hacking a back account and hence deduce that using a mnk adapter is clearly tricking the system. i used your definition (which is an implication as well of course) to deduce that hacking a bankaccount could not be considered "tricking the system" or "bypassing" it.
    again: using a counterexample to prove an implication wrong is not equivalent to comparing the counterexample (hack) to the originally used example (emulator use).
    got it?

    "you seem to think there's an active effort to keep mouse and keyboard off the console" ... no surprise here, still unable to simply comprehend what im writing rather than interpreting things. regardless i do acknowledge the relevance of this question regarding my initial post so i will state my opinion on the matter. i do not believe that there is an active effort to keep mnk off of consoles in general. however making the conscious decision to not support native mnk in a game is clear evidence for the underlying intention to not support mnk in this specific scenario. maybe some developers don't mind the adapters, maybe none of them mind it but they might for example be aware that a significant amount of people in the community would mind it and hence don't implement it. the argument of laziness is ridiculous considering it wouldn't take more than a straight pc port to implement it.

    and then you go on about more things you simply couldn't read properly. all i did was agreeing with you partially by saying that the console should BE ABLE TO serve as a multimedia entertainment system in the living room and that making it come with a mnk instead of a controller would in deed (as you said as well) not make a lot of sense. you then somehow manage to translate this into me claiming that consoles should only be used in the living room and hence mnk should never be supported on console or whatever... like seriously wtf? :weary:

    ok true, you only used "bypass" in regards to security system, my apology. simply replace "bypassing" with "tricking" in whatever i said so far as that is the word you used in the part im referring to.

    I understand your comparisons, you say you mean otherwise but the use of such examples does imply. we both know in the past consoles never came with mouse and keyboard or support for it. but that has changed. until that gap is fully bridged adapters are here. all relevant parties involved are a ok with it.

    no it doesn't imply anything logically speaking. its not my problem if there are misconceptions or misinterpretations even if they are common. I'm not gonna waive the use of counterexamples just because some people aren't able to grasp this concept and hence make wrong conslusions.

    regardless, my initial point still stands...

    yes it does imply. your initial point does not stand because you did jump to the wrong conclusion about what I had said. none of what we said about that even matters. mouse and keyboard is a legitimate controller. the consoles' system does allow it. even it's emulated use. and no, not allowed in the sence a hack breaking in to a banks security system "was allowed". the console manufacturers and devs are more than aware and have the ability to identify and stop it if they want. the devs don't consider it in their scope of responsibility to police, it's not their ecosystem and if the console manufacturers are fine with it so are they.

    as I said before I'm not gonna miss out on using counterexamples because people (including you apprently) are unable to take it for what it is. if you can't grasp that you might wanna look up some basic but formal mathematical proofs to see how strict logic works.

    and again you keep talking about things I never even stated anything about. furtherly I did not make any conslusion about what you said in my initial statement. I took what you said litterally, just as you wrote it.
  • full951
    2465 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    Vycinas2 wrote: »
    full951 wrote: »
    stiny1838 wrote: »
    would using a joystick for a flying game or a steering wheel for a driving game be considered cheating?

    No because they don't change the way the car or plane handles they are purely for better immersion, using a m&kb does give advantages like faster target acquisition and the abillity to adad spam while you keep your sights locked on your opponents head.

    using mouse and keyboard with an emulators does not change the way character movement handles. MnK does not give the advantage of faster target acquisition. it does not change the rules, it does not change the speed. it does not. give adad spam to any degree more than a controller can do it. it does not change the rules or speed. it does not lock on to anything. there is no aim assist or lock abilities added.

    It does sort of feel more natural in that instead of pushing a stick to move the reticle to the target you are moving your hand to the target. When I played PC I did a lot better than I do on console. But aside from that (which is totally my opinion) there is no advantage. In fact if you do a real direct comparison of MnK on PS4 to MnK on PC you will most likely find a disadvantage on PS4 because of the driver and firmware lag that is present because you have to have some sort of translator because a PC is designed for those inputs natively and PS4 doesn't.

    At least someone speaks sense here in this pointless discussion. Bad players will always find a reason to blame something for their own incompetence. They think if you use mnk it turns you into super aiming and destroyer god, but they fail to understand that all this mnk does is just emulates the controller input, its pretty much a controller with different layout and mouse, nothing compared to raw input of the mouse on PC.

    yeah, from what i understand is that with the right configuration of XIM and ingame settings u can get a 90-95% PC Feel. There will always be some accelaration issues when using a XIM.

    I guess that all depends on your definition of "pc feel". cuz from a standpoint of its a mouse and keyboard, sure sitting down and having a mouse in one hand and keyboard in the other is 100% "pc feel"

    what I think most are worried about is its performance compared to that of native mouse and keyboard support on pc. it is just as far away from native support as a controller is. because they operate under the same parameters, limitations, rules ect. if the emulators operated outside the bounds of what a controller could do, the emulators would be locked out. everyone seems to think the emulators are "tricking" the console. not true. the emulators are complying by following the rules set by the console and the game. it's as if some people think the emulators gain access or bypass the consoles security systems. that just isn't happening

    you seriously say that an emulator is not a bypass? lol... just lol. do you think that the main focus of a system that doesn't allow plug and play with an mnk is to just conserve the limitation that are generated when working with controller input? you clearly try to define the mean of action as the underlying reason. the intention behind not allowing plug and play mnk is to not allow mnk... not to have a system that doesnt allow unlimited turning speed and relatively small key binding options.
    the whole reason why such adapters even exist is because people want to use an mnk (mostly for shooter games) on consoles as well but the console/games don't feature the option to do that. to BYPASS these restrictions the adapter comes into play. its as easy as that....
    if it was about the system console manufacturers would just integrate a plug and play option for mnk featuring the restrictions of controller input, but clearly thats not the intention. (remark: the intention behind a system is obviously important to take into consideration when talking about "bypassing" it. if we took the system itself then everything that works on that system would not be a bypass by definition which would make the concept of a bypass obsolete.)
    the anti recoil or auto spotting scripts of a cronus max "are complying by following the rules set by the console and the game" as well by this very definition. so theres two possibilities:
    1. you deny that they comply and hence have to change your definition
    2. you agree they comply and hence your argument doesnt hold any value as we can apply it as well to something that is clearly cheating. we can even apply it to the case of someone breaking into someone elses bank account. the "hacker" can argue: "i played by the rules of your security system but i won" and hence he would not have "bypassed" the security system which is absurd (as mentioned in the first remark)
    (second remark: no i don't compare hacking someones bank account to using an mnk adapter on console. i use the hack of a bank account to show that this definition leads to ad absurdum.)

    everything I said stands. you wanna compair it to hacking and stealing from bank accounts. I'm telling you all it does is give controller input. what's being stolen? nothing. where is the cheating? none to be found. it's player input that follows the rules set by the system it operates on. it controls the controller. you mention there's no plug in play for those perifials. this is the solution for that. and the console manufacturers and devs have noticed the demand. hence the officially licensed mouse and keyboard products and roll out of support that's happening as we speak.

    you have a huge misunderstanding of why mouse and keyboards don't come with consoles. there's more one reason, none of them are to prevent you from using mouse and keyboard because its unfair in a shooter game. one major reason is because they want the console to be the center piece of your entertainment system in the living room. if it came with a mouse and keyboard you would likely not put it in your living room front and center for the multiple digital market places to be exposed to the household. if it came with mouse and keyboard you'd treat it like a computer, and place it on a desk in the corner or a small room exposing it to less people in the house. ask yourself, what is a modern console really? It's A Pay Point. it's like those electric scooters popping up in cities. those are not scooters. those are credit card readers. it's about money and coercing you to spend more on it. got Netflix? Hulu? first party market place for movies? most games have a market place in the game. and the devs just go along with it and make games that support controllers. much like the manufacturers don't have an issue with the emulators, neither do the devs. even the over watch devs who took issue asked for it to be available to all.... well.. what do you think is happening? it's available to all.

    ah come on man :weary:
    i literally ended my comment with a remark pointing out that im not comparing the two and you start of your reply by saying i compare them. why do i even bother putting the remarks if you don't read them anyways...

    regardless, all that is kind of a response to what i said is the whole thing about why mnk doesn't come with consoles. but even there u actually missed the point. i never spoke about consoles coming with mnk. i spoke about consoles allowing plug and play mnk. i would say that an mnk just isn't a viable choice for a system that should be able to serve as a multimedia entertainment system in the living room simply because you can't conveniently use an mnk without a desk and hence this probably is in deed a reason why it doesn't come with mnk but its not a reason to not allow plug and play mnk. and that is what i said....

    so yeah i don't know... maybe reread and try again? like we can talk about the stuff you mentioned as well but i'd like you to realise that your argument about emulators not "bypassing" anything doesn't make sense first.

    you said it. so I have to address it. it's the very first point you drive the whole post on. so yes. it's how I start my response. because that's the comparison you made. no little tag line at the end changes that.

    you talk about why it is the way it is. I told you why it is the way it is. it's obvious the console didn't come with a mouse and keyboard, you didn't have to say it did not, to get that response. you seem to think there's an active effort to keep mouse and keyboard off the console, and misinterpret the lack of plug n play as evidence of such an effort.

    it's just years of console dogma, and uninformed users. as you see, the more the player base becomes informed of their perifial options, it's use increases. you give people options, they take them. this here is a excellent option for anyone who so chooses to use it. the manufacturer may have an intent for it to be the living room entertainment center piece, but I think you're a human of your own free will so you should understand that's not what everyone wants from it and they will use a console how they see fit. if you don't have a desk, this in no way prevents you from using mouse and keyboard on your couch. it's 2019. that "problem" was solved years ago. if that's not what you would do. that's fine, do. what you want. your console.

    as for it by passing. I said it wasn't accessing or by passing any security measures. cuz if it was, I think you know how the console manufacturers feel about that.

    a remark doesnt definition or a proof. a remark is simply there to make the reader aware of something that is already there, but might not be taken into consideration by a reader. so i didn't not compare it because i said i didnt in the remark but because i didnt. now i wrote that because i thought you would understand once you think about it but thats apparently not the case. so i guess i have to explain it to you:
    you seem to be confusing two different argumentative concepts here. the first one is to use comparison in order to lead the initial arguemnt to ad absurdum. more precisely: its comparing A and B (putting them on the same level) to apply certain statements, that follow from A, to B also. the second one is to take an implication A -> B and simply find a counterexample.
    now you act like i used the first technique while i actually used the second. i did not claim similarities between using an mnk adapter and hacking a back account and hence deduce that using a mnk adapter is clearly tricking the system. i used your definition (which is an implication as well of course) to deduce that hacking a bankaccount could not be considered "tricking the system" or "bypassing" it.
    again: using a counterexample to prove an implication wrong is not equivalent to comparing the counterexample (hack) to the originally used example (emulator use).
    got it?

    "you seem to think there's an active effort to keep mouse and keyboard off the console" ... no surprise here, still unable to simply comprehend what im writing rather than interpreting things. regardless i do acknowledge the relevance of this question regarding my initial post so i will state my opinion on the matter. i do not believe that there is an active effort to keep mnk off of consoles in general. however making the conscious decision to not support native mnk in a game is clear evidence for the underlying intention to not support mnk in this specific scenario. maybe some developers don't mind the adapters, maybe none of them mind it but they might for example be aware that a significant amount of people in the community would mind it and hence don't implement it. the argument of laziness is ridiculous considering it wouldn't take more than a straight pc port to implement it.

    and then you go on about more things you simply couldn't read properly. all i did was agreeing with you partially by saying that the console should BE ABLE TO serve as a multimedia entertainment system in the living room and that making it come with a mnk instead of a controller would in deed (as you said as well) not make a lot of sense. you then somehow manage to translate this into me claiming that consoles should only be used in the living room and hence mnk should never be supported on console or whatever... like seriously wtf? :weary:

    ok true, you only used "bypass" in regards to security system, my apology. simply replace "bypassing" with "tricking" in whatever i said so far as that is the word you used in the part im referring to.

    I understand your comparisons, you say you mean otherwise but the use of such examples does imply. we both know in the past consoles never came with mouse and keyboard or support for it. but that has changed. until that gap is fully bridged adapters are here. all relevant parties involved are a ok with it.

    no it doesn't imply anything logically speaking. its not my problem if there are misconceptions or misinterpretations even if they are common. I'm not gonna waive the use of counterexamples just because some people aren't able to grasp this concept and hence make wrong conslusions.

    regardless, my initial point still stands...

    yes it does imply. your initial point does not stand because you did jump to the wrong conclusion about what I had said. none of what we said about that even matters. mouse and keyboard is a legitimate controller. the consoles' system does allow it. even it's emulated use. and no, not allowed in the sence a hack breaking in to a banks security system "was allowed". the console manufacturers and devs are more than aware and have the ability to identify and stop it if they want. the devs don't consider it in their scope of responsibility to police, it's not their ecosystem and if the console manufacturers are fine with it so are they.

    as I said before I'm not gonna miss out on using counterexamples because people (including you apprently) are unable to take it for what it is. if you can't grasp that you might wanna look up some basic but formal mathematical proofs to see how strict logic works.

    and again you keep talking about things I never even stated anything about. furtherly I did not make any conslusion about what you said in my initial statement. I took what you said litterally, just as you wrote it.

    I know you didn't speak about some of the things I've told you. I'm telling you in those cases. most of what you say is irrelevant. forgive me for replying a such.
  • enterBrainer
    114 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Mouse and keyboard is DEFINITELY cheating, no question about it. It needs to be banned.

    So what about the Hori Tactical, licensed by Sony herself? You cant ban people that use that device..

    It is not cheating anymore since the moment Sony licensed a product like this.
    It doesnt matter if it works good enough or not, or that 3rd party emulators do it better.

    they shouldnt have licensed it in the first place.
  • enterBrainer
    114 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Vycinas2 wrote: »
    Vycinas2 wrote: »
    yeah, from what i understand is that with the right configuration of XIM and ingame settings u can get a 90-95% PC Feel. There will always be some accelaration issues when using a XIM.

    Its not even close to 50%

    It sounds like you haven't spent much time learning how to set it up. I'm probably at 85% feel of PC and if I spent more time, I could probably get it to 90% - 95% feel of PC. The biggest thing most people don't realize about these things, is these are not plug and play devices. You have to spend a lot of time learning how to fine tune it to your preferences. Their Forums are good and there are lots of YouTube videos to help you out. Just gotta spend the time. There are default configs but those will get you to your 50% feel.

    I dont use xim to start with. I had it for a month trying it out. The reason why I said its not even close to 50% is because i ve spent 9 years gaming competitively on PC and doesnt matter how you set up your xim, mouse input doesnt feel the same.

    Really? ofcourse it doesnt feel 100% the same, but im sure the XIM is waayyy better to be configured then that Tactical Hori thing.
    and 9years of 'competitive gaming' sure doesnt make u a PC wizard to understand how to properly configure stuff like this.
    so dont act like it.
  • ackers75
    2477 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Mouse and keyboard is DEFINITELY cheating, no question about it. It needs to be banned.

    So what about the Hori Tactical, licensed by Sony herself? You cant ban people that use that device..

    It is not cheating anymore since the moment Sony licensed a product like this.
    It doesnt matter if it works good enough or not, or that 3rd party emulators do it better.

    they shouldnt have licensed it in the first place.

    No it’s not cheating anymore if you buy the official kB/m and games support it.
    But that’s not entirely the case is it!
  • OnlineFrontDe
    1 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    I got accuesed for cheating once, because i prefired someone. Also i Play with a Controller and can easily hold my 1.5 kd. Means: if somebody is "hacking" on console he/she is propably just pretty good at the game.
  • enterBrainer
    114 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    ackers75 wrote: »
    Mouse and keyboard is DEFINITELY cheating, no question about it. It needs to be banned.

    So what about the Hori Tactical, licensed by Sony herself? You cant ban people that use that device..

    It is not cheating anymore since the moment Sony licensed a product like this.
    It doesnt matter if it works good enough or not, or that 3rd party emulators do it better.

    they shouldnt have licensed it in the first place.

    No it’s not cheating anymore if you buy the official kB/m and games support it.
    But that’s not entirely the case is it!

    why not? you can buy the Hori Tactical and use it with BFV. thats official and supported.
  • MatthewSkeet
    382 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Mouse and keyboard is DEFINITELY cheating, no question about it. It needs to be banned.

    eeeerrrmmm no....
    Sony offically licences several M+K and even sells one on their page

    https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/accessories/specialty-controllers/
    Stuff like fragfx is PS licensed

    By your definition....
    fight sticks should be banned
    steering wheels should be banned
    flight sticks should be banned
  • The_BERG_366
    2438 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Mouse and keyboard is DEFINITELY cheating, no question about it. It needs to be banned.

    eeeerrrmmm no....
    Sony offically licences several M+K and even sells one on their page

    https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/accessories/specialty-controllers/
    Stuff like fragfx is PS licensed

    By your definition....
    fight sticks should be banned
    steering wheels should be banned
    flight sticks should be banned

    what definition? the guy didn't even give a definition O.o
  • stiny1838
    263 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Mouse and keyboard is DEFINITELY cheating, no question about it. It needs to be banned.

    eeeerrrmmm no....
    Sony offically licences several M+K and even sells one on their page

    https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/accessories/specialty-controllers/
    Stuff like fragfx is PS licensed

    By your definition....
    fight sticks should be banned
    steering wheels should be banned
    flight sticks should be banned

    1. sony licence those m&kb for mmo's and strategy games where its easier to play using them and the macros were meant to be used for quick casting and menu navigation. that does not mean that sony support them being used as a crutch in shooters or for recoil and spotting scripts by lazy players.

    2.flight sticks and steering wheels do not give any advantage over controllers they are for immersion. the m&kb however does give an advantage over the flight stick, steering wheel and the controller so stop trying to lump them together.

    the reason i traded from pc to console back on old gen was not because of hackers like most of the players coming from pc now. but because i was bored of every game just being a point and click. there was no challenge or fun in it, and now those pc players want console to be the same way because of a lack of patience when it comes to learning how to use a controller.
  • full951
    2465 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    stiny1838 wrote: »
    Mouse and keyboard is DEFINITELY cheating, no question about it. It needs to be banned.

    eeeerrrmmm no....
    Sony offically licences several M+K and even sells one on their page

    https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/accessories/specialty-controllers/
    Stuff like fragfx is PS licensed

    By your definition....
    fight sticks should be banned
    steering wheels should be banned
    flight sticks should be banned

    1. sony licence those m&kb for mmo's and strategy games where its easier to play using them and the macros were meant to be used for quick casting and menu navigation. that does not mean that sony support them being used as a crutch in shooters or for recoil and spotting scripts by lazy players.

    2.flight sticks and steering wheels do not give any advantage over controllers they are for immersion. the m&kb however does give an advantage over the flight stick, steering wheel and the controller so stop trying to lump them together.

    the reason i traded from pc to console back on old gen was not because of hackers like most of the players coming from pc now. but because i was bored of every game just being a point and click. there was no challenge or fun in it, and now those pc players want console to be the same way because of a lack of patience when it comes to learning how to use a controller.

    first of all, you are the first pc gamer ever in the entirety of gaming who's "reason" for switching to console was because you were "bored with every game being point and click". but whatever.

    you say it Sony made it for MMO's and mention macro support it doesn't have. here's the product description:

    The TAC Pro's mechanical keypad and mouse bring PC style controls to PS4 and PS3 systems. Designed specifically for FPS games, features include keypad or analog stick movement, and programmable user profiles. The TAC Pro provides an entirely new control method to the PlayStation4 to revolutionize your play style. Key Features: Universal Compatibility: Plug and play on the PlayStation 4, PlayStation 3 and Windows PC. Designed specifically for FPS games. Compatible with the included TAC Gaming Mouse or any HID-compliant USB mouse. Fully Programmable: Adjust and store your settings for mouse sensitivity, acceleration and dead zones. All keys and buttons are programmable on the TAC Pro display panel or through a PC compatible configuration app. 3200 DPI Optical Mouse: Gaming grade mouse with ultra-responsive micro-switches for deadly accuracy. Buttons are intuitively mapped by default and can be programmed as needed. Advanced Features: Quick Button increases mouse sensitivity for faster reaction time, Snipe Button reduces sensitivity for precision aiming, Walk Button for precision movement, WSAD or analog stick movement options, and more. NOTE: For PlayStation 4 titles which do not offer native mouse support, the TAC Pro utilizes DualShock 4 analog input to emulate mouse movement. Please adjust in game settings and TAC Pro sensitivity settings to achieve optimal mouse response.

    Features:

    LED-backlit mechanical keypad and gaming-grade mouseKey and sensitivity settings can be saved to user profiles and adjusted with Windows applicationSpecial features such as Snipe Button, Quick Button, ADS Lock, and moreErgonomic and comfortable with adjustable palm restOfficially Licensed by Sony. The TAC Pro emulates DualShock analog input and as such will not respond as a 1:1 mouse on games that do not support native mouse input

     

    TAC Software, Firmware, Manual Download Page:"




  • oldmandown65
    100 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Ah, the good old days on PC BF2 watching a few dozen jeeps parachuting from the sky at once...
  • full951
    2465 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Ah, the good old days on PC BF2 watching a few dozen jeeps parachuting from the sky at once...

    +1
  • DCAT627
    60 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited March 12
    Why does anyone care what controller people use and so what if you consider it cheating? Cheating at what? There is no money, chicks, or fame in playing battlefield (in fact it is a detriment to getting those things). Great stats in BF are worth nothing.

    For the record I use DS4.
  • stiny1838
    263 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    DCAT627 wrote: »
    Why does anyone care what controller people use and so what if you consider it cheating? Cheating at what? There is no money, chicks, or fame in playing battlefield (in fact it is a detriment to getting those things). Great stats in BF are worth nothing.

    sounds like something a m&kb user would say. and it does make a difference, why is it that hackers use mods to give themselves an unfair advantage on pc that it is a bad thing, yet when pc players change over to console and use m&kb to give themselves an unfair advantage it's perfectly ok. in many online shooters the game is so overrun by m&kb users that controller players don't stand a chance so they stop playing that game and lose a large percentage of the playerbase and that in turn causes the earlier death of the game.
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