A simple solution for SMG rebalancing

mf_shro0m

So it’s broadly accepted that the SMGs in this game are underpowered and dice have been looking for ways to balance them better. After conducting a lil research (which took like 10 minutes), it’s become clear that a few avenues have not been explored strangely. Below is a summary of the SMGs’ real life stats and their current in-game stats (some values are missing from the data mined stats and I’m away from home so I’ll add hose when I can)

Sten
RL ROF 500-600
RL muzzle velocity 365m/s
In-game ROF 539
In-game muzzle velocity 430
Reload empty 3s
Reload left 2.2s

MP40
RL ROF 500-550
RL muzzle velocity 400m/s
In-game ROF 539
In-game muzzle velocity 400
Reload empty 3.3s
Reload left 2.4s

MP28
RL ROF 600
RL muzzle velocity 380m/s
In-game ROF
In-game muzzle velocity
Reload empty 3.4s
Reload left 2.4s

MP34
RL ROF 600
RL muzzle velocity 410m/s
In-game ROF
In-game muzzle velocity
Reload empty 3.35s
Reload left 2.4s

EMP
RL ROF 550
RL muzzle velocity 380m/s
In-game ROF 568
In-game muzzle velocity 380
Reload empty 3.66s
Reload left 2.26s

Suomi
RL ROF 750-900
RL muzzle velocity 396m/s
In-game ROF 740
In-game muzzle velocity 300
Reload empty 3.75s
Reload left 2.5s

Tommy
RL ROF 830
RL muzzle velocity 285m/s
In-game ROF 720
In-game muzzle velocity 280
Reload empty 2.95s
Reload left 2s
Note : the Tommy was reputedly very accurate (and more accurate than the grease gun) thanks to its beautiful balancing which nullified recoil. Magazine were available in 20 and 30 round sticks and 50 and 100 round drums

ZK-383
RL ROF 500-700 (or 450-750 depending on the source)
RL muzzle velocity 460m/s
In-game ROF 514-720
In-game muzzle velocity

I would like to propose that the SMGs receive the following changes

Quick note : if you increase the bullet velocity and/or buff the recoil and/or increase the ROF, the weapon will naturally become more capable at close and medium range

Sten
• ROF buffed to 550

MP40
• ROF buffed to 550

Suomi
• ROF buffed to 900
• Muzzle velocity buffed to 396m/s
• Reload buff

Tommy
• ROF buffed to 830
• Recoil buff
• Reload nerf for the 50 round drum mag

ZK
• ROF with light bolt spec buffed to 750 or 830
• if base muzzle velocity is currently below 460m/s then buff it to that

For the future
• The PPSH was a copy of the Suomi but they were never made to the same standard and had a shorter barrel. When the PPSH comes out, it should be just like a Suomi but with lower accuracy and a faster ADS time. All in all, it’d be even more of a CQC specialist

Jesus4000

y_j_es_i wrote: »

So it’s broadly accepted that the SMGs in this game are underpowered

No, it's not.
SMGs have been buffed twice in the last two patches and are in a good spot.
It's becoming pretty annoying how people are still complaining about SMGs, asking for reskinned ARs basically.
SMGs are already dominating QCQ, there are no further buffs needed.
If anything, medic needs a second weapon category.

gibonez

SMGS are fine since the last patch.

wiazabi

Still no reason to use low rof smgs and both assault + support has lower ttk weapons so dominating close combat yeah not so much.

Disagree with suggested buffs though from OP as all high rof smgs perform very well and zk-383 720 rof + high velocity + bipod just made reason for low rof smgs even more pointless.

All im saying is if i choose emp or mp34 or similar i want a good reason to not loot that Sturmgewehr 1-5 that has just the setup i like and just the right spec, what GOOD reason is there for me to keep my low rof smg over that ?

mf_shro0m

wiazabi wrote: »

Still no reason to use low rof smgs and both assault + support has lower ttk weapons so dominating close combat yeah not so much.

Disagree with suggested buffs though from OP as all high rof smgs perform very well and zk-383 720 rof + high velocity + bipod just made reason for low rof smgs even more pointless.

All im saying is if i choose emp or mp34 or similar i want a good reason to not loot that Sturmgewehr 1-5 that has just the setup i like and just the right spec, what GOOD reason is there for me to keep my low rof smg over that ?

The MP40 is still the most commonly used SMG because it’s the most reliable. Track the target well and your shots will land

It really comes down to personal preference including factors such as play style and environment. Some prefer the MP40 because it’s exceptionally tight hip fire and very tight ADS spread can make up for the 120RPM difference in ROF

mf_shro0m

Jesus4000 wrote: »

y_j_es_i wrote: »

So it’s broadly accepted that the SMGs in this game are underpowered

No, it's not.
SMGs have been buffed twice in the last two patches and are in a good spot.
It's becoming pretty annoying how people are still complaining about SMGs, asking for reskinned ARs basically.
SMGs are already dominating QCQ, there are no further buffs needed.
If anything, medic needs a second weapon category.

What’s your main class?
How often do you play as a medic?

Players are finding that even now most assault and support weapons have lower TTKs than most of the SMGs in the game and win one on ones in CQC.
The ones that excel in CQC most find unusable at mid-range.

I’m not calling for big buffs here, just tweaking

Jesus4000

y_j_es_i wrote: »

What’s your main class?
How often do you play as a medic?

According to battlefieldtracker, my most used class is assault with 56h, support 47h, recon 45h and medic 27h.
But this is not really representative, as I've been playing mostly medic lately and it's my highest SPM class with 501.5 (assault 488.73, support 432.36, recon 397.25).
I'm not going to go into K/D since mine only shows that I play like a suicidal lemming.
I mostly play domination, but I did play a lot of breakthrough for certain weapon assingments as some are just impossible to do in domination.

y_j_es_i wrote: »

Players are finding that even now most assault and support weapons have lower TTKs than most of the SMGs in the game and win one on ones in CQC.
The ones that excel in CQC most find unusable at mid-range.

I'd say that this is not really true.
For ranges up to 50m, SMGs are really good.
Reason being: Some might have what feels like lots of recoil, but they do have very little spread, making it very easy to track your target.

y_j_es_i wrote: »

I’m not calling for big buffs here, just tweaking

After playing around 7-8 hours of medic over the weekend, I can assure you that SMGs are fine.

xOEx_Jabba81

Jesus4000 wrote: »

y_j_es_i wrote: »

What’s your main class?
How often do you play as a medic?

According to battlefieldtracker, my most used class is assault with 56h, support 47h, recon 45h and medic 27h.
But this is not really representative, as I've been playing mostly medic lately and it's my highest SPM class with 501.5 (assault 488.73, support 432.36, recon 397.25).
I'm not going to go into K/D since mine only shows that I play like a suicidal lemming.
I mostly play domination, but I did play a lot of breakthrough for certain weapon assingments as some are just impossible to do in domination.

y_j_es_i wrote: »

Players are finding that even now most assault and support weapons have lower TTKs than most of the SMGs in the game and win one on ones in CQC.
The ones that excel in CQC most find unusable at mid-range.

I'd say that this is not really true.
For ranges up to 50m, SMGs are really good.
Reason being: Some might have what feels like lots of recoil, but they do have very little spread, making it very easy to track your target.

y_j_es_i wrote: »

I’m not calling for big buffs here, just tweaking

After playing around 7-8 hours of medic over the weekend, I can assure you that SMGs are fine.

Totally agree with you! SMG´s are now perfect.

DaHuntzMen

Jesus4000 wrote: »

y_j_es_i wrote: »

What’s your main class?
How often do you play as a medic?

According to battlefieldtracker, my most used class is assault with 56h, support 47h, recon 45h and medic 27h.
But this is not really representative, as I've been playing mostly medic lately and it's my highest SPM class with 501.5 (assault 488.73, support 432.36, recon 397.25).
I'm not going to go into K/D since mine only shows that I play like a suicidal lemming.
I mostly play domination, but I did play a lot of breakthrough for certain weapon assingments as some are just impossible to do in domination.

y_j_es_i wrote: »

Players are finding that even now most assault and support weapons have lower TTKs than most of the SMGs in the game and win one on ones in CQC.
The ones that excel in CQC most find unusable at mid-range.

I'd say that this is not really true.
For ranges up to 50m, SMGs are really good.
Reason being: Some might have what feels like lots of recoil, but they do have very little spread, making it very easy to track your target.

y_j_es_i wrote: »

I’m not calling for big buffs here, just tweaking

After playing around 7-8 hours of medic over the weekend, I can assure you that SMGs are fine.

Lol 7-8 hour with medic, may want to invest more time into the class before speaking on whether it does or doesn't need a small buff for close range. medic is my main class and I don't think the smgs are trash but there's so many times when I get +95-+99 damage and the other guy using his typical assault or support class just turns around and melts me with 3-4 shots in the chest.

Jesus4000

DaHuntzMen wrote: »

Jesus4000 wrote: »

y_j_es_i wrote: »

What’s your main class?
How often do you play as a medic?

According to battlefieldtracker, my most used class is assault with 56h, support 47h, recon 45h and medic 27h.
But this is not really representative, as I've been playing mostly medic lately and it's my highest SPM class with 501.5 (assault 488.73, support 432.36, recon 397.25).
I'm not going to go into K/D since mine only shows that I play like a suicidal lemming.
I mostly play domination, but I did play a lot of breakthrough for certain weapon assingments as some are just impossible to do in domination.

y_j_es_i wrote: »

Players are finding that even now most assault and support weapons have lower TTKs than most of the SMGs in the game and win one on ones in CQC.
The ones that excel in CQC most find unusable at mid-range.

I'd say that this is not really true.
For ranges up to 50m, SMGs are really good.
Reason being: Some might have what feels like lots of recoil, but they do have very little spread, making it very easy to track your target.

y_j_es_i wrote: »

I’m not calling for big buffs here, just tweaking

After playing around 7-8 hours of medic over the weekend, I can assure you that SMGs are fine.

Lol 7-8 hour with medic, may want to invest more time into the class before speaking on whether it does or doesn't need a small buff for close range. medic is my main class and I don't think the smgs are trash but there's so many times when I get +95-+99 damage and the other guy using his typical assault or support class just turns around and melts me with 3-4 shots in the chest.

You should read the full post and not just the last paragraph:

Jesus4000 wrote: »

According to battlefieldtracker, my most used class is assault with 56h, support 47h, recon 45h and medic 27h.

Jesus4000 wrote: »

After playing around 7-8 hours of medic over the weekend, I can assure you that SMGs are fine.

Those 7-8 hours were just the last weekend.
I have 180+ hours in the game, I think I have a pretty good understanding of how it's balanced.

Radious1987

Smgs are perfectly fine.

Maybe small fine tuning to emp, mp28 and mp34, all others are more then well balanced and effective now.

GuangFuZhongGuo

It WAS bad, but not anymore.

The new ZK-383 is actually better than most assault rifles and LMGs.

joachimeberhard

Honestly, secondarys are still better in CQC than SMGs.

Also, some Snipers suck compared to Assault Rifles.

There is definitely same balancing to be done still.

VindictiV_V

To everybody saying SMGs are fine, compare SMGs with ARs or LMGs of equal/similar RoF (to compare weapons of the same niche, apples vs apples so to speak) and you will see that SMGs are worse in about every single way. That it be damage (up to 30m it's equal then SMGs' damage take a nose dive, why shouldn't they have an actual DPS advantage in their intended niche?!?), accuracy (while hipfire accuracy is a bit better, their recoil is EXTREMELY worse) and bullet velocity (significantly worse in every way), they are all sad compared to ARs and LMGs of the same niche.

http://bfdata.juhala.io/pages/comparison.html

bran1986

AsokoSakechauuuu wrote: »

It WAS bad, but not anymore.

The new ZK-383 is actually better than most assault rifles and LMGs.

lol. Put down the crack pipe.

SirTerrible

VindictiVagabond wrote: »

To everybody saying SMGs are fine, compare SMGs with ARs or LMGs of equal/similar RoF (to compare weapons of the same niche, apples vs apples so to speak) and you will see that SMGs are worse in about every single way. That it be damage (up to 30m it's equal then SMGs' damage take a nose dive, why shouldn't they have an actual DPS advantage in their intended niche?!?), accuracy (while hipfire accuracy is a bit better, their recoil is EXTREMELY worse) and bullet velocity (significantly worse in every way), they are all sad compared to ARs and LMGs of the same niche.

http://bfdata.juhala.io/pages/comparison.html

but self heals + some anecdote about getting 60 kills with an smg
-incoming counter argument

hawkseye17

To make SMGs worth anything in this game you need to give them to Assault. DICE would immediately make them the most OP weapons in the game like in BF1

bran1986

hawkseye17 wrote: »

To make SMGs worth anything in this game you need to give them to Assault. DICE would immediately make them the most OP weapons in the game like in BF1

Just look at what they did to the dmrs and frag rifle grenades after they were taken from the medics and given to the assault.

mf_shro0m

bran1986 wrote: »

hawkseye17 wrote: »

To make SMGs worth anything in this game you need to give them to Assault. DICE would immediately make them the most OP weapons in the game like in BF1

Just look at what they did to the dmrs and frag rifle grenades after they were taken from the medics and given to the assault.

I don’t know how frag rifle grenades have changed since BFI but the assault DMRs are amongst the best guns in BFV

bran1986

y_j_es_i wrote: »

bran1986 wrote: »

hawkseye17 wrote: »

To make SMGs worth anything in this game you need to give them to Assault. DICE would immediately make them the most OP weapons in the game like in BF1

Just look at what they did to the dmrs and frag rifle grenades after they were taken from the medics and given to the assault.

I don’t know how frag rifle grenades have changed since BFI but the assault DMRs are amongst the best guns in BFV

That is my point. When the medics had the dmrs they had more recoil and were nerfed once in the alpha to get more recoil and less damage. Once moved to the assault class they buffed them like crazy. Same with rifle grenades. In the alpha and beta they did a max damage of 35 or 40. Dice said they were intended to flush out enemies and destroy fortifications. Once moved to the assault class they become one hit kill mini nukes.

N2h2

y_j_es_i wrote: »

So it’s broadly accepted that the SMGs in this game are underpowered

LOL.

Now Medics guns are in a really good spot. medic can heal himself every seconds, can super fast revive allies, this is one of the most usefull class in the game.

The new SMG is super acurate, MP40 is decent at mid range, Suomi shred anything at close range, stein is decent, acurate and still usefull at midrange.

Well this class is my favorite, and TBH, It's fine like it is. Give it more fire power and there will be no point playing anything else.


SMG damage falloff at long range? well this is the downside of that class. Deal with it. There are no jack of all trade and it's better like that.