Valentine MAA needs love.

Comments

  • Shrediron
    205 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Same match. And they say planes are hurting due to the OP flakpanzers and broken AA in the game. SMH

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  • Shrediron
    205 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member

    Where on earth did I ask for planes to be uncontested? Your argument is a reductio ad absurdum logical fallacy, and even were it not, it is negated by the simple fact planes contest themselves.

    Its basic logic. You support the idea that MAA needs nerfing, but at the same time make no mention of the planes who do damage at the same rate as MAA. You suggested that the Valentine was fine and that all the issues I see in game with it being able to take down bombers is all left up to my skill that you think you know and understand from 30 seconds of video. So, no there are no logical fallacies here only your inability to comprehend basic logic and your lazy assumptions.

    negated by the simple fact planes contest themselves. A bomber cannot exist with a competent air superiority fighter in the sky all things remaining equal, neither can a fighter without ordinance compete with SPAA.

    And a Flakpanzer cannot exist with a competent ground assault player on the ground, or any other heavy armored tank, or land mines.

    These things you call trash aren't trash, the only thing that is trash is your skill set regarding them. When I am trash at something in game, I do not pontificate to others how it should be balanced, because I know I speak from complete inexperience and lack of practice.

    I am a designer by trade and yes I have worked directly with game devs (on 3 titles) one of which regarded balancing classes. My skill be it good or bad is completely irrelevant. I have observed match after match after match that planes are still in fact dominating the play field, even with the "broken" Flakpanzer. Many others have observed the exact same issues. That tells me that my observations have some merit and require further investigation (not by the devs, but for myself). If Flakpanzers are broken and indeed need to be changed and brought inline with other MAA, but at the same time planes in all forms are still dominating, what will happen to those planes if they are left unchecked after the patch to Flakpanzers? So I need to answer that question for you?
    To engage with your reductio ad absurdum logic, I explicitly mentioned the skill gap between killing the Wirbelwind as a plane vs killing a plane with the Wirbelwind; it isn't remotely close to even your own criteria for balance; who is the real hypocrite here therefore?
    And your point is 100% irrelevant. The Flakpanzer and a plane do not exist in a vacuum. Each one of them affect the overall balance of the game. My argument (which facts support) is that a broken Flakpanzer is not changing the overall balance of the play field, however bombers and fighters left unchecked are. Bringing down the strength of AA or MAA will only further exasperate the issue with the planes controlling the playfield.

    Right now a reasonable pilot has too much power over the outcome of the game. EVEN WITH THE STATE OF FLAKPANZERS. Easy logic.

    Furthermore when there is something that can kill you in one hit, be it a V-1 or a Stuka's 1000kg bomb, you have to anticipate and adapt your gameplay to them. Also, you are lazily inflating and exaggerating the Wirbelwind's TTK... 2-3 seconds you say? The video clearly showed one in around 1.3 or so seconds. That literally means you agree it is broken and does double blast damage as that is clearly about half the TTK you say it should be. Yet you talk about these planes magically all being able to one hit kill SPAA, as if every plane and everyone is doing it, despite people pointing out to you how poor your positioning was, which you were rightly punished for. Read Sun-Tzu, attack your enemy when he is weak and you are strong, let them make the mistake. Beyond your user error, others have demonstrated that the files are bugged, yet you have remain defiant, as if in your wisdom and experience you could know better.

    My previous remarks cover most of this statement.

    The real problem here is that you are more focused on attacking me as a person and a player vs attacking the topic of balance, because that is what I strive for...fair and balanced game play. The more people this game appeals to, the more money EA DICE make. The more they make the greater the likelihood that investors will invest in the company. This leads to more games, more Battlefield and hopefully more fun. That is my agenda, that is my goal. But at the same time, telling someone they are doing a good job when they are not does not help to create a good product. That is why on one hand, I appreciate your critique of video, but on the other I laugh to think that anyone can know someone based on 30 seconds of video footage which in and of itself was only being recorded to show the damage numbers....not even actual game play. LOL

    Af you honestly think I dont already know everything you said, if I dont already practice most if not all of what you said, then you are delusional. I have no doubts you are a better tanker than me, that is pretty much all you do in game. However your position that I have zero clue to what I am talking about when you dont even know who I am or what I do shows just how narcissistic and full of hubris you are. How about stop attacking me, take a step back and get to know me....but wait, you have no interest in that. You're only goal is to unbalance the playfield and allow for planes to continue with their domination.
    I am simply done arguing with you; it is a complete waste of my time. No dev is ever going to seriously balance SPAA around someone who is so inexperienced with one.

    I agree that most forums conflicts are a complete waste of time. I would much rather be in game now than rebutting your commentary. As far as devs listening to me..I dont expect them to listen to me, nor you, nor anyone on these forums. They have more data streaming in about the game than you and I can wrap our heads around.

    As I stated, my goal is balance on the playfield and right now its not flakpanzers that are killing infantry or tanks left and right, its planes and bombers are taking out entire squads all day long. The devs know this, the data shows it.



  • WinterWarhurst
    1319 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Shrediron wrote: »

    Where on earth did I ask for planes to be uncontested? Your argument is a reductio ad absurdum logical fallacy, and even were it not, it is negated by the simple fact planes contest themselves.

    Its basic logic. You support the idea that MAA needs nerfing, but at the same time make no mention of the planes who do damage at the same rate as MAA. You suggested that the Valentine was fine and that all the issues I see in game with it being able to take down bombers is all left up to my skill that you think you know and understand from 30 seconds of video. So, no there are no logical fallacies here only your inability to comprehend basic logic and your lazy assumptions.

    negated by the simple fact planes contest themselves. A bomber cannot exist with a competent air superiority fighter in the sky all things remaining equal, neither can a fighter without ordinance compete with SPAA.

    And a Flakpanzer cannot exist with a competent ground assault player on the ground, or any other heavy armored tank, or land mines.

    These things you call trash aren't trash, the only thing that is trash is your skill set regarding them. When I am trash at something in game, I do not pontificate to others how it should be balanced, because I know I speak from complete inexperience and lack of practice.

    I am a designer by trade and yes I have worked directly with game devs (on 3 titles) one of which regarded balancing classes. My skill be it good or bad is completely irrelevant. I have observed match after match after match that planes are still in fact dominating the play field, even with the "broken" Flakpanzer. Many others have observed the exact same issues. That tells me that my observations have some merit and require further investigation (not by the devs, but for myself). If Flakpanzers are broken and indeed need to be changed and brought inline with other MAA, but at the same time planes in all forms are still dominating, what will happen to those planes if they are left unchecked after the patch to Flakpanzers? So I need to answer that question for you?
    To engage with your reductio ad absurdum logic, I explicitly mentioned the skill gap between killing the Wirbelwind as a plane vs killing a plane with the Wirbelwind; it isn't remotely close to even your own criteria for balance; who is the real hypocrite here therefore?
    And your point is 100% irrelevant. The Flakpanzer and a plane do not exist in a vacuum. Each one of them affect the overall balance of the game. My argument (which facts support) is that a broken Flakpanzer is not changing the overall balance of the play field, however bombers and fighters left unchecked are. Bringing down the strength of AA or MAA will only further exasperate the issue with the planes controlling the playfield.

    Right now a reasonable pilot has too much power over the outcome of the game. EVEN WITH THE STATE OF FLAKPANZERS. Easy logic.

    Furthermore when there is something that can kill you in one hit, be it a V-1 or a Stuka's 1000kg bomb, you have to anticipate and adapt your gameplay to them. Also, you are lazily inflating and exaggerating the Wirbelwind's TTK... 2-3 seconds you say? The video clearly showed one in around 1.3 or so seconds. That literally means you agree it is broken and does double blast damage as that is clearly about half the TTK you say it should be. Yet you talk about these planes magically all being able to one hit kill SPAA, as if every plane and everyone is doing it, despite people pointing out to you how poor your positioning was, which you were rightly punished for. Read Sun-Tzu, attack your enemy when he is weak and you are strong, let them make the mistake. Beyond your user error, others have demonstrated that the files are bugged, yet you have remain defiant, as if in your wisdom and experience you could know better.

    My previous remarks cover most of this statement.

    The real problem here is that you are more focused on attacking me as a person and a player vs attacking the topic of balance, because that is what I strive for...fair and balanced game play. The more people this game appeals to, the more money EA DICE make. The more they make the greater the likelihood that investors will invest in the company. This leads to more games, more Battlefield and hopefully more fun. That is my agenda, that is my goal. But at the same time, telling someone they are doing a good job when they are not does not help to create a good product. That is why on one hand, I appreciate your critique of video, but on the other I laugh to think that anyone can know someone based on 30 seconds of video footage which in and of itself was only being recorded to show the damage numbers....not even actual game play. LOL

    Af you honestly think I dont already know everything you said, if I dont already practice most if not all of what you said, then you are delusional. I have no doubts you are a better tanker than me, that is pretty much all you do in game. However your position that I have zero clue to what I am talking about when you dont even know who I am or what I do shows just how narcissistic and full of hubris you are. How about stop attacking me, take a step back and get to know me....but wait, you have no interest in that. You're only goal is to unbalance the playfield and allow for planes to continue with their domination.
    I am simply done arguing with you; it is a complete waste of my time. No dev is ever going to seriously balance SPAA around someone who is so inexperienced with one.

    I agree that most forums conflicts are a complete waste of time. I would much rather be in game now than rebutting your commentary. As far as devs listening to me..I dont expect them to listen to me, nor you, nor anyone on these forums. They have more data streaming in about the game than you and I can wrap our heads around.

    As I stated, my goal is balance on the playfield and right now its not flakpanzers that are killing infantry or tanks left and right, its planes and bombers are taking out entire squads all day long. The devs know this, the data shows it.



    As a tanker main I hate getting one shot by bombers as much, if not more, than anyone. I actually think you are being far more reasonable in your response to me here, and inevitably data will be what devs look at to inform their opinion.

    That said even by your own 2-3 second estimation the Wirbelwind is bugged with double blast damage as its TTK is around half this.

    I want AA and SPAA to be effective against bombers and fighters alike, however I, and many others, will simply not back down from our belief that it should require a high degree of skill to kill a highly skilled pilot or tanker, whether they are in a bomber, a fighter, an SPAA or a tank.

    Very often I load in to servers where the balance is not there, where only low level players man the AAs and can be defeated easily, but I also load into servers where top class players are say on Twisted Steel in Wirbelwinds, Ju-88s & Stukas and it’s simply miserable to play vehicles on the other team. In fact I often set myself the challenge to dismantle their air superiority, but also I often squad up because coordinated opposition requires a coordinated response. This game is complex, as you well know.

    Should there be V-1s or 1000kg bombs that one hit kill tanks? Personally I would be better off without them, I can at least agree with you here to some degree, yet they exist, and as such you must adapt your gameplay style or die. If you are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes you can beat a bomber or Stuka. If they are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes they will beat you.

    Is the Valentine SPAA as useless on Hamada Breakthrough as you claim in your screenshot? I’ve gotten 111 kills in the first two sectors alone in one, and killed all their air, and that’s before it was buffed. I have at least 5 people on my friends list who do better than I do in the Valentine SPAA, and they all agree it’s OP, particularly against infantry. Against planes you have a low ROF but a high damage output. You have to be very accurate, and have great leading and tracking abilities, as well as placement with the terrain to escape to cover when the bombers with their 1000KG come looking to troll you. Again, I would rather they didn’t have these bomb, but they do, so adapt or die.

    As for planes, or tanks, dominating... Well Breakthrough is notorious for this because you have such a high player density. Combine this with spotting, etc. And it’s going to be intense. Sometimes you load into a server where nobody is interested in taking a fighter up to maintain air superiority and keep bombers grounded. I love playing this role for my fellow squad mates and team. I, much like you, hate bombers, unless they’re in my squad and I’m protecting them.

    Anyway, nice to be more civil, I hope you can at the very least appreciate my perspective.
  • Shrediron
    205 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    As a tanker main I hate getting one shot by bombers as much, if not more, than anyone. I actually think you are being far more reasonable in your response to me here, and inevitably data will be what devs look at to inform their opinion.

    I never felt I was being unreasonable. I have not changed my stance on anything. The difference is that I had to spell it out, but frankly I should not have had to...because to me its just basic 101.

    That said even by your own 2-3 second estimation the Wirbelwind is bugged with double blast damage as its TTK is around half this.

    But as I stated, even IF it is bugged and the damage output is not intended, which based on how weak the valentine is to me (regardless of what gun) would seem to be the case. My fear is seeing the FlakP damage being lowered to pre 2nd patch when ALL AA was useless. I personally think pre jan patch was perfect...but pilots complained.
    I want AA and SPAA to be effective against bombers and fighters alike, however I, and many others, will simply not back down from our belief that it should require a high degree of skill to kill a highly skilled pilot or tanker, whether they are in a bomber, a fighter, an SPAA or a tank.

    I disagree. Frankly its your bias/pride speaking (imo), not balance speaking. You must understand, I give ZERO cares about K/D ratio, and frankly all K/D does is hurt game play and create a toxic environment where one bro has to brag about how amazing he is to the other bro. It also pushes people to kill more than do the objective. Same thing in happens in any score kept game where the score is based on kills. The fundamental issue is that most of the AA in game is stationary. The only skill threshold in SAA is the players ability to track the plane and throttle the fire. In order to balance SAA around the "skill capped" in planes means you need "skill capped" SAA players, which pretty much means perfect accuracy. The issue is that netcode/latency/ping ALONE will not allow for this to happen, so there has to be a buffer. You can't not take all reward from the non-elite player base (the majority) because when people lose more often than they win, they will find something else to do. If an AA player can not kill the plane regardless of how much they try and the pilot is brazen and nose diving directly at the AA, its broken. Period.

    And yes I understand that this goes both ways where the pilots need to win as well, but that is why I am arguing these points because the pilots are not the ones losing right now. I can go into most gamed with planes and find reasonable pilots owning the entire map, EVEN with flakpanzers around.

    Have you ever been frustrated in game because you could not get something done, or something like that happens to me where I get 5 instant deaths in a row simply when spawning REGARDLESS of where I spawn? I get fed up and look for something else to do. The last thing a business wants is their customer being frustrated with their product which will make the customer look for something else. In this case its entertainment. EA DICE right now CAN NOT AFFORD to lose players from BFV because of bad design/decisions that drive the customer to another form of entertainment. Simply put, the game design should not drive customers away to the competition.
    Very often I load in to servers where the balance is not there, where only low level players man the AAs and can be defeated easily, but I also load into servers where top class players are say on Twisted Steel in Wirbelwinds, Ju-88s & Stukas and it’s simply miserable to play vehicles on the other team. In fact I often set myself the challenge to dismantle their air superiority, but also I often squad up because coordinated opposition requires a coordinated response. This game is complex, as you well know.

    Server balance in this game is non-existent, at least by my observation. When I make a funny or a gripe on forums (like this thread) its not based on one or two or three or even 10 experiences. Its based on something I have observed that happens time and time and time and time and time and time again. I then check to see if others observe the same issues. This helps weed out skill, computer, internet, etc if the sample size is large (which admittedly is not as large as I would like).
    Should there be V-1s or 1000kg bombs that one hit kill tanks? Personally I would be better off without them, I can at least agree with you here to some degree, yet they exist, and as such you must adapt your gameplay style or die. If you are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes you can beat a bomber or Stuka. If they are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes they will beat you.

    I am fine with V-1's, they are usually end game clutch tools with limited use. My issue is the exploitation of those mechanics by squads who artificially inflate their score to get the V-1 early, its cheating and circumvents the design goals.

    I disagree with the comment about being smart and beating stuka/bomber. Their ability to navigate around the AA is much more easily done than the AA's inability to navigate or the MAA's slower ability to navigate. For example. That short clip I posted earlier happened becasue I was on high ground, the plane flew low behind our base, pulled up and 1 shot me. I heard him for about 1.7 seconds before he killed me. He must have flown WIDE around the map to ensure I did not see him. There is no escaping that. I could go hide in a gully, but we know that does not work, but neither does being high up. The issue is that not only could I not escape that, I could also not shoot him down before he was out of range/LOS of my guns...the valentine overheats FAST and even the slow gun was useless. Against a good pilot like him with his 75/85 kills I have no options. That is why I made the video. That was not a one off occurrence and not just happening to me. I watch others try to take out planes and some of the AA in game simply wont do it.

    As I stated earlier, no player should have that much consistent control over the playfield, and even Flakpanzers in their allegedly broken state, do not have the power to control the entire playfield like the planes can.
    Is the Valentine SPAA as useless on Hamada Breakthrough as you claim in your screenshot? I’ve gotten 111 kills in the first two sectors alone in one, and killed all their air, and that’s before it was buffed. I have at least 5 people on my friends list who do better than I do in the Valentine SPAA, and they all agree it’s OP, particularly against infantry. Against planes you have a low ROF but a high damage output. You have to be very accurate, and have great leading and tracking abilities, as well as placement with the terrain to escape to cover when the bombers with their 1000KG come looking to troll you. Again, I would rather they didn’t have these bomb, but they do, so adapt or die.
    Please post videos because I have an extremely hard time being convinced that they are as strong right now as you or your friends claim. Regardless of how I spec mine out, I simply do junk damage to bombers. Even fighters escape before I can kill them due to their speed. I fully admit I am the worst player of any game any genre of all time, the literal last place player in the world. THAT being said, your observations do not line up with the numbers (the ones I have collected at least). I see planes dominating left and right wiht extremely high kill counts. MAA, LUCKY to get 10 kills in a match (unless its the flakpanzer), and AA....LOL only if you are finishing off what someone else already started.
    As for planes, or tanks, dominating... Well Breakthrough is notorious for this because you have such a high player density. Combine this with spotting, etc. And it’s going to be intense. Sometimes you load into a server where nobody is interested in taking a fighter up to maintain air superiority and keep bombers grounded. I love playing this role for my fellow squad mates and team. I, much like you, hate bombers, unless they’re in my squad and I’m protecting them.

    True. I see the same issues on Conquest as well. I dont see it on Panzerstorm, but I dont see anyone dominating Panzerstorm. The map size alone helps with balance.
    Anyway, nice to be more civil, I hope you can at the very least appreciate my perspective.

    I totally get your perspective. I just feel the discussion is not over until all questions have been asked and are answered and everyone is on the same playing field. I find it extremely infuriating to see design decisions being done by trial and error( costing time and money) when a strong group brainstorming session can weed out most issues beforehand saving time and money.





  • TheSacar
    1005 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Shrediron wrote: »
    My fear is seeing the FlakP damage being lowered to pre 2nd patch when ALL AA was useless. I personally think pre jan patch was perfect...but pilots complained.

    No one in their right mind wants that to happen. DICE might still do it, because they're DICE, but decent pilots certainly do not want that.
    .
    Yes, AA was almost perfect before the first January patch broke it. Still I was one of the pilots who complained a little. Not about the damage, but about the range. What got me and still gets me is that on some maps mobile AA can be so effective without leaving the spawn and that there are some stationary AA positions that have a much too large area of effect. The one on E on Narvik being a prime example, as that thing reaches the A flag and can thus defend all flags but B against air targets.
    I don't want to be uncontested from the ground. But when one guy on a stationary AA can simultaneously defend 5 out of six flags (or 4 out of six if you discount A) that is a bit much in my opinion.
  • EA_Rtas
    337 postsMember, EA Staff, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, EA Moderator, Battlefield V
    Alright folks lets keep things civil in here or I'm going to have to think about closing the thread. If you disagree with the OP thats fine just be constructive about it.
  • naitch44
    666 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    If you aren't speccing canister shot and farming infantry you're doing it wrong.
  • Cerben1
    217 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    well it wold be just asum if the AA tanks where even good in killing planes and not a farming tool for killing infantry and every thing ells but planes and one is currently bugged so it have insane damage to planes and about any thing =)
  • WinterWarhurst
    1319 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Shrediron wrote: »
    As a tanker main I hate getting one shot by bombers as much, if not more, than anyone. I actually think you are being far more reasonable in your response to me here, and inevitably data will be what devs look at to inform their opinion.

    I never felt I was being unreasonable. I have not changed my stance on anything. The difference is that I had to spell it out, but frankly I should not have had to...because to me its just basic 101.

    That said even by your own 2-3 second estimation the Wirbelwind is bugged with double blast damage as its TTK is around half this.

    But as I stated, even IF it is bugged and the damage output is not intended, which based on how weak the valentine is to me (regardless of what gun) would seem to be the case. My fear is seeing the FlakP damage being lowered to pre 2nd patch when ALL AA was useless. I personally think pre jan patch was perfect...but pilots complained.
    I want AA and SPAA to be effective against bombers and fighters alike, however I, and many others, will simply not back down from our belief that it should require a high degree of skill to kill a highly skilled pilot or tanker, whether they are in a bomber, a fighter, an SPAA or a tank.

    I disagree. Frankly its your bias/pride speaking (imo), not balance speaking. You must understand, I give ZERO cares about K/D ratio, and frankly all K/D does is hurt game play and create a toxic environment where one bro has to brag about how amazing he is to the other bro. It also pushes people to kill more than do the objective. Same thing in happens in any score kept game where the score is based on kills. The fundamental issue is that most of the AA in game is stationary. The only skill threshold in SAA is the players ability to track the plane and throttle the fire. In order to balance SAA around the "skill capped" in planes means you need "skill capped" SAA players, which pretty much means perfect accuracy. The issue is that netcode/latency/ping ALONE will not allow for this to happen, so there has to be a buffer. You can't not take all reward from the non-elite player base (the majority) because when people lose more often than they win, they will find something else to do. If an AA player can not kill the plane regardless of how much they try and the pilot is brazen and nose diving directly at the AA, its broken. Period.

    And yes I understand that this goes both ways where the pilots need to win as well, but that is why I am arguing these points because the pilots are not the ones losing right now. I can go into most gamed with planes and find reasonable pilots owning the entire map, EVEN with flakpanzers around.

    Have you ever been frustrated in game because you could not get something done, or something like that happens to me where I get 5 instant deaths in a row simply when spawning REGARDLESS of where I spawn? I get fed up and look for something else to do. The last thing a business wants is their customer being frustrated with their product which will make the customer look for something else. In this case its entertainment. EA DICE right now CAN NOT AFFORD to lose players from BFV because of bad design/decisions that drive the customer to another form of entertainment. Simply put, the game design should not drive customers away to the competition.
    Very often I load in to servers where the balance is not there, where only low level players man the AAs and can be defeated easily, but I also load into servers where top class players are say on Twisted Steel in Wirbelwinds, Ju-88s & Stukas and it’s simply miserable to play vehicles on the other team. In fact I often set myself the challenge to dismantle their air superiority, but also I often squad up because coordinated opposition requires a coordinated response. This game is complex, as you well know.

    Server balance in this game is non-existent, at least by my observation. When I make a funny or a gripe on forums (like this thread) its not based on one or two or three or even 10 experiences. Its based on something I have observed that happens time and time and time and time and time and time again. I then check to see if others observe the same issues. This helps weed out skill, computer, internet, etc if the sample size is large (which admittedly is not as large as I would like).
    Should there be V-1s or 1000kg bombs that one hit kill tanks? Personally I would be better off without them, I can at least agree with you here to some degree, yet they exist, and as such you must adapt your gameplay style or die. If you are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes you can beat a bomber or Stuka. If they are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes they will beat you.

    I am fine with V-1's, they are usually end game clutch tools with limited use. My issue is the exploitation of those mechanics by squads who artificially inflate their score to get the V-1 early, its cheating and circumvents the design goals.

    I disagree with the comment about being smart and beating stuka/bomber. Their ability to navigate around the AA is much more easily done than the AA's inability to navigate or the MAA's slower ability to navigate. For example. That short clip I posted earlier happened becasue I was on high ground, the plane flew low behind our base, pulled up and 1 shot me. I heard him for about 1.7 seconds before he killed me. He must have flown WIDE around the map to ensure I did not see him. There is no escaping that. I could go hide in a gully, but we know that does not work, but neither does being high up. The issue is that not only could I not escape that, I could also not shoot him down before he was out of range/LOS of my guns...the valentine overheats FAST and even the slow gun was useless. Against a good pilot like him with his 75/85 kills I have no options. That is why I made the video. That was not a one off occurrence and not just happening to me. I watch others try to take out planes and some of the AA in game simply wont do it.

    As I stated earlier, no player should have that much consistent control over the playfield, and even Flakpanzers in their allegedly broken state, do not have the power to control the entire playfield like the planes can.
    Is the Valentine SPAA as useless on Hamada Breakthrough as you claim in your screenshot? I’ve gotten 111 kills in the first two sectors alone in one, and killed all their air, and that’s before it was buffed. I have at least 5 people on my friends list who do better than I do in the Valentine SPAA, and they all agree it’s OP, particularly against infantry. Against planes you have a low ROF but a high damage output. You have to be very accurate, and have great leading and tracking abilities, as well as placement with the terrain to escape to cover when the bombers with their 1000KG come looking to troll you. Again, I would rather they didn’t have these bomb, but they do, so adapt or die.
    Please post videos because I have an extremely hard time being convinced that they are as strong right now as you or your friends claim. Regardless of how I spec mine out, I simply do junk damage to bombers. Even fighters escape before I can kill them due to their speed. I fully admit I am the worst player of any game any genre of all time, the literal last place player in the world. THAT being said, your observations do not line up with the numbers (the ones I have collected at least). I see planes dominating left and right wiht extremely high kill counts. MAA, LUCKY to get 10 kills in a match (unless its the flakpanzer), and AA....LOL only if you are finishing off what someone else already started.
    As for planes, or tanks, dominating... Well Breakthrough is notorious for this because you have such a high player density. Combine this with spotting, etc. And it’s going to be intense. Sometimes you load into a server where nobody is interested in taking a fighter up to maintain air superiority and keep bombers grounded. I love playing this role for my fellow squad mates and team. I, much like you, hate bombers, unless they’re in my squad and I’m protecting them.

    True. I see the same issues on Conquest as well. I dont see it on Panzerstorm, but I dont see anyone dominating Panzerstorm. The map size alone helps with balance.
    Anyway, nice to be more civil, I hope you can at the very least appreciate my perspective.

    I totally get your perspective. I just feel the discussion is not over until all questions have been asked and are answered and everyone is on the same playing field. I find it extremely infuriating to see design decisions being done by trial and error( costing time and money) when a strong group brainstorming session can weed out most issues beforehand saving time and money.





    Flakpanzer confirmed bugged by devs, and will be patched in next update:



    As for the rest, I don't know what to say other than what I have said before. To beat top pilots you need to practice, you need to outsmart them, you need to use the proper counters and tactics available to you. I have friends that go on 100+ Valentine SPAA streaks every day. It is possible, but you simply, respectfully, need to adapt your gameplay style or you will be rightly punished. Currently AA is powerful and capable in the right hands, in the right circumstances.

    Do I think bombers are perfectly balanced? Nope. It's one of the hardest things to balance in the game. And as a tanker it is perhaps one of my top 3 threats, yet I rarely get bombed, yet alone one hit kill bombed, and when I do, I get mad, but mad at myself because I should have been more aware, I should have reacted accordingly, and that ultimately falls on me.
  • TheSacar
    1005 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    @WinterWarhurst Good news, thanks for sharing!
  • DingoKillr
    3420 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Shrediron wrote: »
    As a tanker main I hate getting one shot by bombers as much, if not more, than anyone. I actually think you are being far more reasonable in your response to me here, and inevitably data will be what devs look at to inform their opinion.

    I never felt I was being unreasonable. I have not changed my stance on anything. The difference is that I had to spell it out, but frankly I should not have had to...because to me its just basic 101.

    That said even by your own 2-3 second estimation the Wirbelwind is bugged with double blast damage as its TTK is around half this.

    But as I stated, even IF it is bugged and the damage output is not intended, which based on how weak the valentine is to me (regardless of what gun) would seem to be the case. My fear is seeing the FlakP damage being lowered to pre 2nd patch when ALL AA was useless. I personally think pre jan patch was perfect...but pilots complained.
    I want AA and SPAA to be effective against bombers and fighters alike, however I, and many others, will simply not back down from our belief that it should require a high degree of skill to kill a highly skilled pilot or tanker, whether they are in a bomber, a fighter, an SPAA or a tank.

    I disagree. Frankly its your bias/pride speaking (imo), not balance speaking. You must understand, I give ZERO cares about K/D ratio, and frankly all K/D does is hurt game play and create a toxic environment where one bro has to brag about how amazing he is to the other bro. It also pushes people to kill more than do the objective. Same thing in happens in any score kept game where the score is based on kills. The fundamental issue is that most of the AA in game is stationary. The only skill threshold in SAA is the players ability to track the plane and throttle the fire. In order to balance SAA around the "skill capped" in planes means you need "skill capped" SAA players, which pretty much means perfect accuracy. The issue is that netcode/latency/ping ALONE will not allow for this to happen, so there has to be a buffer. You can't not take all reward from the non-elite player base (the majority) because when people lose more often than they win, they will find something else to do. If an AA player can not kill the plane regardless of how much they try and the pilot is brazen and nose diving directly at the AA, its broken. Period.

    And yes I understand that this goes both ways where the pilots need to win as well, but that is why I am arguing these points because the pilots are not the ones losing right now. I can go into most gamed with planes and find reasonable pilots owning the entire map, EVEN with flakpanzers around.

    Have you ever been frustrated in game because you could not get something done, or something like that happens to me where I get 5 instant deaths in a row simply when spawning REGARDLESS of where I spawn? I get fed up and look for something else to do. The last thing a business wants is their customer being frustrated with their product which will make the customer look for something else. In this case its entertainment. EA DICE right now CAN NOT AFFORD to lose players from BFV because of bad design/decisions that drive the customer to another form of entertainment. Simply put, the game design should not drive customers away to the competition.
    Very often I load in to servers where the balance is not there, where only low level players man the AAs and can be defeated easily, but I also load into servers where top class players are say on Twisted Steel in Wirbelwinds, Ju-88s & Stukas and it’s simply miserable to play vehicles on the other team. In fact I often set myself the challenge to dismantle their air superiority, but also I often squad up because coordinated opposition requires a coordinated response. This game is complex, as you well know.

    Server balance in this game is non-existent, at least by my observation. When I make a funny or a gripe on forums (like this thread) its not based on one or two or three or even 10 experiences. Its based on something I have observed that happens time and time and time and time and time and time again. I then check to see if others observe the same issues. This helps weed out skill, computer, internet, etc if the sample size is large (which admittedly is not as large as I would like).
    Should there be V-1s or 1000kg bombs that one hit kill tanks? Personally I would be better off without them, I can at least agree with you here to some degree, yet they exist, and as such you must adapt your gameplay style or die. If you are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes you can beat a bomber or Stuka. If they are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes they will beat you.

    I am fine with V-1's, they are usually end game clutch tools with limited use. My issue is the exploitation of those mechanics by squads who artificially inflate their score to get the V-1 early, its cheating and circumvents the design goals.

    I disagree with the comment about being smart and beating stuka/bomber. Their ability to navigate around the AA is much more easily done than the AA's inability to navigate or the MAA's slower ability to navigate. For example. That short clip I posted earlier happened becasue I was on high ground, the plane flew low behind our base, pulled up and 1 shot me. I heard him for about 1.7 seconds before he killed me. He must have flown WIDE around the map to ensure I did not see him. There is no escaping that. I could go hide in a gully, but we know that does not work, but neither does being high up. The issue is that not only could I not escape that, I could also not shoot him down before he was out of range/LOS of my guns...the valentine overheats FAST and even the slow gun was useless. Against a good pilot like him with his 75/85 kills I have no options. That is why I made the video. That was not a one off occurrence and not just happening to me. I watch others try to take out planes and some of the AA in game simply wont do it.

    As I stated earlier, no player should have that much consistent control over the playfield, and even Flakpanzers in their allegedly broken state, do not have the power to control the entire playfield like the planes can.
    Is the Valentine SPAA as useless on Hamada Breakthrough as you claim in your screenshot? I’ve gotten 111 kills in the first two sectors alone in one, and killed all their air, and that’s before it was buffed. I have at least 5 people on my friends list who do better than I do in the Valentine SPAA, and they all agree it’s OP, particularly against infantry. Against planes you have a low ROF but a high damage output. You have to be very accurate, and have great leading and tracking abilities, as well as placement with the terrain to escape to cover when the bombers with their 1000KG come looking to troll you. Again, I would rather they didn’t have these bomb, but they do, so adapt or die.
    Please post videos because I have an extremely hard time being convinced that they are as strong right now as you or your friends claim. Regardless of how I spec mine out, I simply do junk damage to bombers. Even fighters escape before I can kill them due to their speed. I fully admit I am the worst player of any game any genre of all time, the literal last place player in the world. THAT being said, your observations do not line up with the numbers (the ones I have collected at least). I see planes dominating left and right wiht extremely high kill counts. MAA, LUCKY to get 10 kills in a match (unless its the flakpanzer), and AA....LOL only if you are finishing off what someone else already started.
    As for planes, or tanks, dominating... Well Breakthrough is notorious for this because you have such a high player density. Combine this with spotting, etc. And it’s going to be intense. Sometimes you load into a server where nobody is interested in taking a fighter up to maintain air superiority and keep bombers grounded. I love playing this role for my fellow squad mates and team. I, much like you, hate bombers, unless they’re in my squad and I’m protecting them.

    True. I see the same issues on Conquest as well. I dont see it on Panzerstorm, but I dont see anyone dominating Panzerstorm. The map size alone helps with balance.
    Anyway, nice to be more civil, I hope you can at the very least appreciate my perspective.

    I totally get your perspective. I just feel the discussion is not over until all questions have been asked and are answered and everyone is on the same playing field. I find it extremely infuriating to see design decisions being done by trial and error( costing time and money) when a strong group brainstorming session can weed out most issues beforehand saving time and money.





    Flakpanzer confirmed bugged by devs, and will be patched in next update:



    As for the rest, I don't know what to say other than what I have said before. To beat top pilots you need to practice, you need to outsmart them, you need to use the proper counters and tactics available to you. I have friends that go on 100+ Valentine SPAA streaks every day. It is possible, but you simply, respectfully, need to adapt your gameplay style or you will be rightly punished. Currently AA is powerful and capable in the right hands, in the right circumstances.

    Do I think bombers are perfectly balanced? Nope. It's one of the hardest things to balance in the game. And as a tanker it is perhaps one of my top 3 threats, yet I rarely get bombed, yet alone one hit kill bombed, and when I do, I get mad, but mad at myself because I should have been more aware, I should have reacted accordingly, and that ultimately falls on me.

    I have friends that go 200+ in Fighters everyday if they can do any one can right, I think that is a good reason AA should be more powerful.

    No, instead we are going back to rounds where pilots destroy every ground unit, never die and ground have no counter. Yet you have the gall to tell others to get good, while pilots now only need to worry about other pilots.
  • Shrediron
    205 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Shrediron wrote: »
    As a tanker main I hate getting one shot by bombers as much, if not more, than anyone. I actually think you are being far more reasonable in your response to me here, and inevitably data will be what devs look at to inform their opinion.

    I never felt I was being unreasonable. I have not changed my stance on anything. The difference is that I had to spell it out, but frankly I should not have had to...because to me its just basic 101.

    That said even by your own 2-3 second estimation the Wirbelwind is bugged with double blast damage as its TTK is around half this.

    But as I stated, even IF it is bugged and the damage output is not intended, which based on how weak the valentine is to me (regardless of what gun) would seem to be the case. My fear is seeing the FlakP damage being lowered to pre 2nd patch when ALL AA was useless. I personally think pre jan patch was perfect...but pilots complained.
    I want AA and SPAA to be effective against bombers and fighters alike, however I, and many others, will simply not back down from our belief that it should require a high degree of skill to kill a highly skilled pilot or tanker, whether they are in a bomber, a fighter, an SPAA or a tank.

    I disagree. Frankly its your bias/pride speaking (imo), not balance speaking. You must understand, I give ZERO cares about K/D ratio, and frankly all K/D does is hurt game play and create a toxic environment where one bro has to brag about how amazing he is to the other bro. It also pushes people to kill more than do the objective. Same thing in happens in any score kept game where the score is based on kills. The fundamental issue is that most of the AA in game is stationary. The only skill threshold in SAA is the players ability to track the plane and throttle the fire. In order to balance SAA around the "skill capped" in planes means you need "skill capped" SAA players, which pretty much means perfect accuracy. The issue is that netcode/latency/ping ALONE will not allow for this to happen, so there has to be a buffer. You can't not take all reward from the non-elite player base (the majority) because when people lose more often than they win, they will find something else to do. If an AA player can not kill the plane regardless of how much they try and the pilot is brazen and nose diving directly at the AA, its broken. Period.

    And yes I understand that this goes both ways where the pilots need to win as well, but that is why I am arguing these points because the pilots are not the ones losing right now. I can go into most gamed with planes and find reasonable pilots owning the entire map, EVEN with flakpanzers around.

    Have you ever been frustrated in game because you could not get something done, or something like that happens to me where I get 5 instant deaths in a row simply when spawning REGARDLESS of where I spawn? I get fed up and look for something else to do. The last thing a business wants is their customer being frustrated with their product which will make the customer look for something else. In this case its entertainment. EA DICE right now CAN NOT AFFORD to lose players from BFV because of bad design/decisions that drive the customer to another form of entertainment. Simply put, the game design should not drive customers away to the competition.
    Very often I load in to servers where the balance is not there, where only low level players man the AAs and can be defeated easily, but I also load into servers where top class players are say on Twisted Steel in Wirbelwinds, Ju-88s & Stukas and it’s simply miserable to play vehicles on the other team. In fact I often set myself the challenge to dismantle their air superiority, but also I often squad up because coordinated opposition requires a coordinated response. This game is complex, as you well know.

    Server balance in this game is non-existent, at least by my observation. When I make a funny or a gripe on forums (like this thread) its not based on one or two or three or even 10 experiences. Its based on something I have observed that happens time and time and time and time and time and time again. I then check to see if others observe the same issues. This helps weed out skill, computer, internet, etc if the sample size is large (which admittedly is not as large as I would like).
    Should there be V-1s or 1000kg bombs that one hit kill tanks? Personally I would be better off without them, I can at least agree with you here to some degree, yet they exist, and as such you must adapt your gameplay style or die. If you are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes you can beat a bomber or Stuka. If they are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes they will beat you.

    I am fine with V-1's, they are usually end game clutch tools with limited use. My issue is the exploitation of those mechanics by squads who artificially inflate their score to get the V-1 early, its cheating and circumvents the design goals.

    I disagree with the comment about being smart and beating stuka/bomber. Their ability to navigate around the AA is much more easily done than the AA's inability to navigate or the MAA's slower ability to navigate. For example. That short clip I posted earlier happened becasue I was on high ground, the plane flew low behind our base, pulled up and 1 shot me. I heard him for about 1.7 seconds before he killed me. He must have flown WIDE around the map to ensure I did not see him. There is no escaping that. I could go hide in a gully, but we know that does not work, but neither does being high up. The issue is that not only could I not escape that, I could also not shoot him down before he was out of range/LOS of my guns...the valentine overheats FAST and even the slow gun was useless. Against a good pilot like him with his 75/85 kills I have no options. That is why I made the video. That was not a one off occurrence and not just happening to me. I watch others try to take out planes and some of the AA in game simply wont do it.

    As I stated earlier, no player should have that much consistent control over the playfield, and even Flakpanzers in their allegedly broken state, do not have the power to control the entire playfield like the planes can.
    Is the Valentine SPAA as useless on Hamada Breakthrough as you claim in your screenshot? I’ve gotten 111 kills in the first two sectors alone in one, and killed all their air, and that’s before it was buffed. I have at least 5 people on my friends list who do better than I do in the Valentine SPAA, and they all agree it’s OP, particularly against infantry. Against planes you have a low ROF but a high damage output. You have to be very accurate, and have great leading and tracking abilities, as well as placement with the terrain to escape to cover when the bombers with their 1000KG come looking to troll you. Again, I would rather they didn’t have these bomb, but they do, so adapt or die.
    Please post videos because I have an extremely hard time being convinced that they are as strong right now as you or your friends claim. Regardless of how I spec mine out, I simply do junk damage to bombers. Even fighters escape before I can kill them due to their speed. I fully admit I am the worst player of any game any genre of all time, the literal last place player in the world. THAT being said, your observations do not line up with the numbers (the ones I have collected at least). I see planes dominating left and right wiht extremely high kill counts. MAA, LUCKY to get 10 kills in a match (unless its the flakpanzer), and AA....LOL only if you are finishing off what someone else already started.
    As for planes, or tanks, dominating... Well Breakthrough is notorious for this because you have such a high player density. Combine this with spotting, etc. And it’s going to be intense. Sometimes you load into a server where nobody is interested in taking a fighter up to maintain air superiority and keep bombers grounded. I love playing this role for my fellow squad mates and team. I, much like you, hate bombers, unless they’re in my squad and I’m protecting them.

    True. I see the same issues on Conquest as well. I dont see it on Panzerstorm, but I dont see anyone dominating Panzerstorm. The map size alone helps with balance.
    Anyway, nice to be more civil, I hope you can at the very least appreciate my perspective.

    I totally get your perspective. I just feel the discussion is not over until all questions have been asked and are answered and everyone is on the same playing field. I find it extremely infuriating to see design decisions being done by trial and error( costing time and money) when a strong group brainstorming session can weed out most issues beforehand saving time and money.





    Flakpanzer confirmed bugged by devs, and will be patched in next update:



    As for the rest, I don't know what to say other than what I have said before. To beat top pilots you need to practice, you need to outsmart them, you need to use the proper counters and tactics available to you. I have friends that go on 100+ Valentine SPAA streaks every day. It is possible, but you simply, respectfully, need to adapt your gameplay style or you will be rightly punished. Currently AA is powerful and capable in the right hands, in the right circumstances.

    Do I think bombers are perfectly balanced? Nope. It's one of the hardest things to balance in the game. And as a tanker it is perhaps one of my top 3 threats, yet I rarely get bombed, yet alone one hit kill bombed, and when I do, I get mad, but mad at myself because I should have been more aware, I should have reacted accordingly, and that ultimately falls on me.

    I already explained to you why your ideology is incorrect.
    1. This has nothing to do with me or my skill and I already explained why.
    2. Please provide proof of your claims about your friends, I highly doubt your friends are doing 100+ every day on the valentine. Hyperbole at its finest.
  • WinterWarhurst
    1319 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Shrediron wrote: »
    Shrediron wrote: »
    As a tanker main I hate getting one shot by bombers as much, if not more, than anyone. I actually think you are being far more reasonable in your response to me here, and inevitably data will be what devs look at to inform their opinion.

    I never felt I was being unreasonable. I have not changed my stance on anything. The difference is that I had to spell it out, but frankly I should not have had to...because to me its just basic 101.

    That said even by your own 2-3 second estimation the Wirbelwind is bugged with double blast damage as its TTK is around half this.

    But as I stated, even IF it is bugged and the damage output is not intended, which based on how weak the valentine is to me (regardless of what gun) would seem to be the case. My fear is seeing the FlakP damage being lowered to pre 2nd patch when ALL AA was useless. I personally think pre jan patch was perfect...but pilots complained.
    I want AA and SPAA to be effective against bombers and fighters alike, however I, and many others, will simply not back down from our belief that it should require a high degree of skill to kill a highly skilled pilot or tanker, whether they are in a bomber, a fighter, an SPAA or a tank.

    I disagree. Frankly its your bias/pride speaking (imo), not balance speaking. You must understand, I give ZERO cares about K/D ratio, and frankly all K/D does is hurt game play and create a toxic environment where one bro has to brag about how amazing he is to the other bro. It also pushes people to kill more than do the objective. Same thing in happens in any score kept game where the score is based on kills. The fundamental issue is that most of the AA in game is stationary. The only skill threshold in SAA is the players ability to track the plane and throttle the fire. In order to balance SAA around the "skill capped" in planes means you need "skill capped" SAA players, which pretty much means perfect accuracy. The issue is that netcode/latency/ping ALONE will not allow for this to happen, so there has to be a buffer. You can't not take all reward from the non-elite player base (the majority) because when people lose more often than they win, they will find something else to do. If an AA player can not kill the plane regardless of how much they try and the pilot is brazen and nose diving directly at the AA, its broken. Period.

    And yes I understand that this goes both ways where the pilots need to win as well, but that is why I am arguing these points because the pilots are not the ones losing right now. I can go into most gamed with planes and find reasonable pilots owning the entire map, EVEN with flakpanzers around.

    Have you ever been frustrated in game because you could not get something done, or something like that happens to me where I get 5 instant deaths in a row simply when spawning REGARDLESS of where I spawn? I get fed up and look for something else to do. The last thing a business wants is their customer being frustrated with their product which will make the customer look for something else. In this case its entertainment. EA DICE right now CAN NOT AFFORD to lose players from BFV because of bad design/decisions that drive the customer to another form of entertainment. Simply put, the game design should not drive customers away to the competition.
    Very often I load in to servers where the balance is not there, where only low level players man the AAs and can be defeated easily, but I also load into servers where top class players are say on Twisted Steel in Wirbelwinds, Ju-88s & Stukas and it’s simply miserable to play vehicles on the other team. In fact I often set myself the challenge to dismantle their air superiority, but also I often squad up because coordinated opposition requires a coordinated response. This game is complex, as you well know.

    Server balance in this game is non-existent, at least by my observation. When I make a funny or a gripe on forums (like this thread) its not based on one or two or three or even 10 experiences. Its based on something I have observed that happens time and time and time and time and time and time again. I then check to see if others observe the same issues. This helps weed out skill, computer, internet, etc if the sample size is large (which admittedly is not as large as I would like).
    Should there be V-1s or 1000kg bombs that one hit kill tanks? Personally I would be better off without them, I can at least agree with you here to some degree, yet they exist, and as such you must adapt your gameplay style or die. If you are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes you can beat a bomber or Stuka. If they are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes they will beat you.

    I am fine with V-1's, they are usually end game clutch tools with limited use. My issue is the exploitation of those mechanics by squads who artificially inflate their score to get the V-1 early, its cheating and circumvents the design goals.

    I disagree with the comment about being smart and beating stuka/bomber. Their ability to navigate around the AA is much more easily done than the AA's inability to navigate or the MAA's slower ability to navigate. For example. That short clip I posted earlier happened becasue I was on high ground, the plane flew low behind our base, pulled up and 1 shot me. I heard him for about 1.7 seconds before he killed me. He must have flown WIDE around the map to ensure I did not see him. There is no escaping that. I could go hide in a gully, but we know that does not work, but neither does being high up. The issue is that not only could I not escape that, I could also not shoot him down before he was out of range/LOS of my guns...the valentine overheats FAST and even the slow gun was useless. Against a good pilot like him with his 75/85 kills I have no options. That is why I made the video. That was not a one off occurrence and not just happening to me. I watch others try to take out planes and some of the AA in game simply wont do it.

    As I stated earlier, no player should have that much consistent control over the playfield, and even Flakpanzers in their allegedly broken state, do not have the power to control the entire playfield like the planes can.
    Is the Valentine SPAA as useless on Hamada Breakthrough as you claim in your screenshot? I’ve gotten 111 kills in the first two sectors alone in one, and killed all their air, and that’s before it was buffed. I have at least 5 people on my friends list who do better than I do in the Valentine SPAA, and they all agree it’s OP, particularly against infantry. Against planes you have a low ROF but a high damage output. You have to be very accurate, and have great leading and tracking abilities, as well as placement with the terrain to escape to cover when the bombers with their 1000KG come looking to troll you. Again, I would rather they didn’t have these bomb, but they do, so adapt or die.
    Please post videos because I have an extremely hard time being convinced that they are as strong right now as you or your friends claim. Regardless of how I spec mine out, I simply do junk damage to bombers. Even fighters escape before I can kill them due to their speed. I fully admit I am the worst player of any game any genre of all time, the literal last place player in the world. THAT being said, your observations do not line up with the numbers (the ones I have collected at least). I see planes dominating left and right wiht extremely high kill counts. MAA, LUCKY to get 10 kills in a match (unless its the flakpanzer), and AA....LOL only if you are finishing off what someone else already started.
    As for planes, or tanks, dominating... Well Breakthrough is notorious for this because you have such a high player density. Combine this with spotting, etc. And it’s going to be intense. Sometimes you load into a server where nobody is interested in taking a fighter up to maintain air superiority and keep bombers grounded. I love playing this role for my fellow squad mates and team. I, much like you, hate bombers, unless they’re in my squad and I’m protecting them.

    True. I see the same issues on Conquest as well. I dont see it on Panzerstorm, but I dont see anyone dominating Panzerstorm. The map size alone helps with balance.
    Anyway, nice to be more civil, I hope you can at the very least appreciate my perspective.

    I totally get your perspective. I just feel the discussion is not over until all questions have been asked and are answered and everyone is on the same playing field. I find it extremely infuriating to see design decisions being done by trial and error( costing time and money) when a strong group brainstorming session can weed out most issues beforehand saving time and money.





    Flakpanzer confirmed bugged by devs, and will be patched in next update:



    As for the rest, I don't know what to say other than what I have said before. To beat top pilots you need to practice, you need to outsmart them, you need to use the proper counters and tactics available to you. I have friends that go on 100+ Valentine SPAA streaks every day. It is possible, but you simply, respectfully, need to adapt your gameplay style or you will be rightly punished. Currently AA is powerful and capable in the right hands, in the right circumstances.

    Do I think bombers are perfectly balanced? Nope. It's one of the hardest things to balance in the game. And as a tanker it is perhaps one of my top 3 threats, yet I rarely get bombed, yet alone one hit kill bombed, and when I do, I get mad, but mad at myself because I should have been more aware, I should have reacted accordingly, and that ultimately falls on me.

    I already explained to you why your ideology is incorrect.
    1. This has nothing to do with me or my skill and I already explained why.
    2. Please provide proof of your claims about your friends, I highly doubt your friends are doing 100+ every day on the valentine. Hyperbole at its finest.

    1. Your video and hypothesis does not exist independently of your skill, it is directly proportional to it. Your opinion is a product of your playstyle.
    2. I have many of the top competitive tankers on the leaderboards on my friends list (PS4). If you search for score by tanks you will find many of them have thousands of kills in the Valentine SPAA. It is a very popular choice, especially for farming infantry with the case rounds. Breakthrough Hamada is the best map for them followed by breakthrough or conquest Aerodrome. A friend of mine can even break 100 kills in conquest, yet alone Breakthrough where you can achieve 100 kills in a single sector. My best in the first sector was around 85 but I don’t play Breakthrough much, I’m sure if I played the Valentine SPAA every day loading in on the same maps as many people on the leaderboards do it’d be quite simple, and yes achievable every day unless you get really unlucky with server balance, game duration, etc. Either way it’s not the main point to this thread, considering you were discussing damage output against planes, of which you argued the Wirbelwind is the perfect example of balance, despite it having now been confirmed broken.

  • WinterWarhurst
    1319 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    Shrediron wrote: »
    As a tanker main I hate getting one shot by bombers as much, if not more, than anyone. I actually think you are being far more reasonable in your response to me here, and inevitably data will be what devs look at to inform their opinion.

    I never felt I was being unreasonable. I have not changed my stance on anything. The difference is that I had to spell it out, but frankly I should not have had to...because to me its just basic 101.

    That said even by your own 2-3 second estimation the Wirbelwind is bugged with double blast damage as its TTK is around half this.

    But as I stated, even IF it is bugged and the damage output is not intended, which based on how weak the valentine is to me (regardless of what gun) would seem to be the case. My fear is seeing the FlakP damage being lowered to pre 2nd patch when ALL AA was useless. I personally think pre jan patch was perfect...but pilots complained.
    I want AA and SPAA to be effective against bombers and fighters alike, however I, and many others, will simply not back down from our belief that it should require a high degree of skill to kill a highly skilled pilot or tanker, whether they are in a bomber, a fighter, an SPAA or a tank.

    I disagree. Frankly its your bias/pride speaking (imo), not balance speaking. You must understand, I give ZERO cares about K/D ratio, and frankly all K/D does is hurt game play and create a toxic environment where one bro has to brag about how amazing he is to the other bro. It also pushes people to kill more than do the objective. Same thing in happens in any score kept game where the score is based on kills. The fundamental issue is that most of the AA in game is stationary. The only skill threshold in SAA is the players ability to track the plane and throttle the fire. In order to balance SAA around the "skill capped" in planes means you need "skill capped" SAA players, which pretty much means perfect accuracy. The issue is that netcode/latency/ping ALONE will not allow for this to happen, so there has to be a buffer. You can't not take all reward from the non-elite player base (the majority) because when people lose more often than they win, they will find something else to do. If an AA player can not kill the plane regardless of how much they try and the pilot is brazen and nose diving directly at the AA, its broken. Period.

    And yes I understand that this goes both ways where the pilots need to win as well, but that is why I am arguing these points because the pilots are not the ones losing right now. I can go into most gamed with planes and find reasonable pilots owning the entire map, EVEN with flakpanzers around.

    Have you ever been frustrated in game because you could not get something done, or something like that happens to me where I get 5 instant deaths in a row simply when spawning REGARDLESS of where I spawn? I get fed up and look for something else to do. The last thing a business wants is their customer being frustrated with their product which will make the customer look for something else. In this case its entertainment. EA DICE right now CAN NOT AFFORD to lose players from BFV because of bad design/decisions that drive the customer to another form of entertainment. Simply put, the game design should not drive customers away to the competition.
    Very often I load in to servers where the balance is not there, where only low level players man the AAs and can be defeated easily, but I also load into servers where top class players are say on Twisted Steel in Wirbelwinds, Ju-88s & Stukas and it’s simply miserable to play vehicles on the other team. In fact I often set myself the challenge to dismantle their air superiority, but also I often squad up because coordinated opposition requires a coordinated response. This game is complex, as you well know.

    Server balance in this game is non-existent, at least by my observation. When I make a funny or a gripe on forums (like this thread) its not based on one or two or three or even 10 experiences. Its based on something I have observed that happens time and time and time and time and time and time again. I then check to see if others observe the same issues. This helps weed out skill, computer, internet, etc if the sample size is large (which admittedly is not as large as I would like).
    Should there be V-1s or 1000kg bombs that one hit kill tanks? Personally I would be better off without them, I can at least agree with you here to some degree, yet they exist, and as such you must adapt your gameplay style or die. If you are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes you can beat a bomber or Stuka. If they are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes they will beat you.

    I am fine with V-1's, they are usually end game clutch tools with limited use. My issue is the exploitation of those mechanics by squads who artificially inflate their score to get the V-1 early, its cheating and circumvents the design goals.

    I disagree with the comment about being smart and beating stuka/bomber. Their ability to navigate around the AA is much more easily done than the AA's inability to navigate or the MAA's slower ability to navigate. For example. That short clip I posted earlier happened becasue I was on high ground, the plane flew low behind our base, pulled up and 1 shot me. I heard him for about 1.7 seconds before he killed me. He must have flown WIDE around the map to ensure I did not see him. There is no escaping that. I could go hide in a gully, but we know that does not work, but neither does being high up. The issue is that not only could I not escape that, I could also not shoot him down before he was out of range/LOS of my guns...the valentine overheats FAST and even the slow gun was useless. Against a good pilot like him with his 75/85 kills I have no options. That is why I made the video. That was not a one off occurrence and not just happening to me. I watch others try to take out planes and some of the AA in game simply wont do it.

    As I stated earlier, no player should have that much consistent control over the playfield, and even Flakpanzers in their allegedly broken state, do not have the power to control the entire playfield like the planes can.
    Is the Valentine SPAA as useless on Hamada Breakthrough as you claim in your screenshot? I’ve gotten 111 kills in the first two sectors alone in one, and killed all their air, and that’s before it was buffed. I have at least 5 people on my friends list who do better than I do in the Valentine SPAA, and they all agree it’s OP, particularly against infantry. Against planes you have a low ROF but a high damage output. You have to be very accurate, and have great leading and tracking abilities, as well as placement with the terrain to escape to cover when the bombers with their 1000KG come looking to troll you. Again, I would rather they didn’t have these bomb, but they do, so adapt or die.
    Please post videos because I have an extremely hard time being convinced that they are as strong right now as you or your friends claim. Regardless of how I spec mine out, I simply do junk damage to bombers. Even fighters escape before I can kill them due to their speed. I fully admit I am the worst player of any game any genre of all time, the literal last place player in the world. THAT being said, your observations do not line up with the numbers (the ones I have collected at least). I see planes dominating left and right wiht extremely high kill counts. MAA, LUCKY to get 10 kills in a match (unless its the flakpanzer), and AA....LOL only if you are finishing off what someone else already started.
    As for planes, or tanks, dominating... Well Breakthrough is notorious for this because you have such a high player density. Combine this with spotting, etc. And it’s going to be intense. Sometimes you load into a server where nobody is interested in taking a fighter up to maintain air superiority and keep bombers grounded. I love playing this role for my fellow squad mates and team. I, much like you, hate bombers, unless they’re in my squad and I’m protecting them.

    True. I see the same issues on Conquest as well. I dont see it on Panzerstorm, but I dont see anyone dominating Panzerstorm. The map size alone helps with balance.
    Anyway, nice to be more civil, I hope you can at the very least appreciate my perspective.

    I totally get your perspective. I just feel the discussion is not over until all questions have been asked and are answered and everyone is on the same playing field. I find it extremely infuriating to see design decisions being done by trial and error( costing time and money) when a strong group brainstorming session can weed out most issues beforehand saving time and money.





    Flakpanzer confirmed bugged by devs, and will be patched in next update:



    As for the rest, I don't know what to say other than what I have said before. To beat top pilots you need to practice, you need to outsmart them, you need to use the proper counters and tactics available to you. I have friends that go on 100+ Valentine SPAA streaks every day. It is possible, but you simply, respectfully, need to adapt your gameplay style or you will be rightly punished. Currently AA is powerful and capable in the right hands, in the right circumstances.

    Do I think bombers are perfectly balanced? Nope. It's one of the hardest things to balance in the game. And as a tanker it is perhaps one of my top 3 threats, yet I rarely get bombed, yet alone one hit kill bombed, and when I do, I get mad, but mad at myself because I should have been more aware, I should have reacted accordingly, and that ultimately falls on me.

    I have friends that go 200+ in Fighters everyday if they can do any one can right, I think that is a good reason AA should be more powerful.

    No, instead we are going back to rounds where pilots destroy every ground unit, never die and ground have no counter. Yet you have the gall to tell others to get good, while pilots now only need to worry about other pilots.


    Ok I appreciate your sarcasm, but seriously consider what you’re actually arguing here, because if your friends were really going 200+ in fighters every day I don’t think you’d suggest that they need some love, as this thread does suggest of the Valentine SPAA.

    If you play breakthrough Hamada there is a high possibility you run into stat padding bomber or fighter nerds, who literally spend their entire game sessions loading in to Devestation, waiting for Hamada to start, then spend the entire game in a bomber, then rinse-repeat. I know many of the top pilots on the leaderboards, including the No. 1 who I squad up with frequently. They all load in on certain maps and play one part of the rotation, therefore you have a high likelihood of running in to such players on these maps. I can tell you that in these discords (I am in the pilot platoon that the No.1 guy is), they all feel AA is a serious threat, in fact so much so that they’ve changed the planes they fly in to counter AA. In fact many of them have stopped straffing even stationary AA altogether with their MGs because it’s too risky in case the user has decent aim. As a result they have resorted to rockets as a counter, foregoing other upgrades. As I said before, to beat a highly skilled player, regardless of what class they play, it typically requires a high degree of skill. This is surely fair? I know that I can kill these pilots in an SPAA, but I also know that they are masters at taking out AA. I can not expect to beat them every time, nor can I expect it to be easy. You need to play smart to beat smart pilots. You need to pick your counters carefully, and know when to engage, and when not to. Do they have air superiority? Are you 1 v 3 against multiple bombers & close air support, etc. These factors are so complicated.
  • Shrediron
    205 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Shrediron wrote: »
    Shrediron wrote: »
    As a tanker main I hate getting one shot by bombers as much, if not more, than anyone. I actually think you are being far more reasonable in your response to me here, and inevitably data will be what devs look at to inform their opinion.

    I never felt I was being unreasonable. I have not changed my stance on anything. The difference is that I had to spell it out, but frankly I should not have had to...because to me its just basic 101.

    That said even by your own 2-3 second estimation the Wirbelwind is bugged with double blast damage as its TTK is around half this.

    But as I stated, even IF it is bugged and the damage output is not intended, which based on how weak the valentine is to me (regardless of what gun) would seem to be the case. My fear is seeing the FlakP damage being lowered to pre 2nd patch when ALL AA was useless. I personally think pre jan patch was perfect...but pilots complained.
    I want AA and SPAA to be effective against bombers and fighters alike, however I, and many others, will simply not back down from our belief that it should require a high degree of skill to kill a highly skilled pilot or tanker, whether they are in a bomber, a fighter, an SPAA or a tank.

    I disagree. Frankly its your bias/pride speaking (imo), not balance speaking. You must understand, I give ZERO cares about K/D ratio, and frankly all K/D does is hurt game play and create a toxic environment where one bro has to brag about how amazing he is to the other bro. It also pushes people to kill more than do the objective. Same thing in happens in any score kept game where the score is based on kills. The fundamental issue is that most of the AA in game is stationary. The only skill threshold in SAA is the players ability to track the plane and throttle the fire. In order to balance SAA around the "skill capped" in planes means you need "skill capped" SAA players, which pretty much means perfect accuracy. The issue is that netcode/latency/ping ALONE will not allow for this to happen, so there has to be a buffer. You can't not take all reward from the non-elite player base (the majority) because when people lose more often than they win, they will find something else to do. If an AA player can not kill the plane regardless of how much they try and the pilot is brazen and nose diving directly at the AA, its broken. Period.

    And yes I understand that this goes both ways where the pilots need to win as well, but that is why I am arguing these points because the pilots are not the ones losing right now. I can go into most gamed with planes and find reasonable pilots owning the entire map, EVEN with flakpanzers around.

    Have you ever been frustrated in game because you could not get something done, or something like that happens to me where I get 5 instant deaths in a row simply when spawning REGARDLESS of where I spawn? I get fed up and look for something else to do. The last thing a business wants is their customer being frustrated with their product which will make the customer look for something else. In this case its entertainment. EA DICE right now CAN NOT AFFORD to lose players from BFV because of bad design/decisions that drive the customer to another form of entertainment. Simply put, the game design should not drive customers away to the competition.
    Very often I load in to servers where the balance is not there, where only low level players man the AAs and can be defeated easily, but I also load into servers where top class players are say on Twisted Steel in Wirbelwinds, Ju-88s & Stukas and it’s simply miserable to play vehicles on the other team. In fact I often set myself the challenge to dismantle their air superiority, but also I often squad up because coordinated opposition requires a coordinated response. This game is complex, as you well know.

    Server balance in this game is non-existent, at least by my observation. When I make a funny or a gripe on forums (like this thread) its not based on one or two or three or even 10 experiences. Its based on something I have observed that happens time and time and time and time and time and time again. I then check to see if others observe the same issues. This helps weed out skill, computer, internet, etc if the sample size is large (which admittedly is not as large as I would like).
    Should there be V-1s or 1000kg bombs that one hit kill tanks? Personally I would be better off without them, I can at least agree with you here to some degree, yet they exist, and as such you must adapt your gameplay style or die. If you are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes you can beat a bomber or Stuka. If they are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes they will beat you.

    I am fine with V-1's, they are usually end game clutch tools with limited use. My issue is the exploitation of those mechanics by squads who artificially inflate their score to get the V-1 early, its cheating and circumvents the design goals.

    I disagree with the comment about being smart and beating stuka/bomber. Their ability to navigate around the AA is much more easily done than the AA's inability to navigate or the MAA's slower ability to navigate. For example. That short clip I posted earlier happened becasue I was on high ground, the plane flew low behind our base, pulled up and 1 shot me. I heard him for about 1.7 seconds before he killed me. He must have flown WIDE around the map to ensure I did not see him. There is no escaping that. I could go hide in a gully, but we know that does not work, but neither does being high up. The issue is that not only could I not escape that, I could also not shoot him down before he was out of range/LOS of my guns...the valentine overheats FAST and even the slow gun was useless. Against a good pilot like him with his 75/85 kills I have no options. That is why I made the video. That was not a one off occurrence and not just happening to me. I watch others try to take out planes and some of the AA in game simply wont do it.

    As I stated earlier, no player should have that much consistent control over the playfield, and even Flakpanzers in their allegedly broken state, do not have the power to control the entire playfield like the planes can.
    Is the Valentine SPAA as useless on Hamada Breakthrough as you claim in your screenshot? I’ve gotten 111 kills in the first two sectors alone in one, and killed all their air, and that’s before it was buffed. I have at least 5 people on my friends list who do better than I do in the Valentine SPAA, and they all agree it’s OP, particularly against infantry. Against planes you have a low ROF but a high damage output. You have to be very accurate, and have great leading and tracking abilities, as well as placement with the terrain to escape to cover when the bombers with their 1000KG come looking to troll you. Again, I would rather they didn’t have these bomb, but they do, so adapt or die.
    Please post videos because I have an extremely hard time being convinced that they are as strong right now as you or your friends claim. Regardless of how I spec mine out, I simply do junk damage to bombers. Even fighters escape before I can kill them due to their speed. I fully admit I am the worst player of any game any genre of all time, the literal last place player in the world. THAT being said, your observations do not line up with the numbers (the ones I have collected at least). I see planes dominating left and right wiht extremely high kill counts. MAA, LUCKY to get 10 kills in a match (unless its the flakpanzer), and AA....LOL only if you are finishing off what someone else already started.
    As for planes, or tanks, dominating... Well Breakthrough is notorious for this because you have such a high player density. Combine this with spotting, etc. And it’s going to be intense. Sometimes you load into a server where nobody is interested in taking a fighter up to maintain air superiority and keep bombers grounded. I love playing this role for my fellow squad mates and team. I, much like you, hate bombers, unless they’re in my squad and I’m protecting them.

    True. I see the same issues on Conquest as well. I dont see it on Panzerstorm, but I dont see anyone dominating Panzerstorm. The map size alone helps with balance.
    Anyway, nice to be more civil, I hope you can at the very least appreciate my perspective.

    I totally get your perspective. I just feel the discussion is not over until all questions have been asked and are answered and everyone is on the same playing field. I find it extremely infuriating to see design decisions being done by trial and error( costing time and money) when a strong group brainstorming session can weed out most issues beforehand saving time and money.





    Flakpanzer confirmed bugged by devs, and will be patched in next update:



    As for the rest, I don't know what to say other than what I have said before. To beat top pilots you need to practice, you need to outsmart them, you need to use the proper counters and tactics available to you. I have friends that go on 100+ Valentine SPAA streaks every day. It is possible, but you simply, respectfully, need to adapt your gameplay style or you will be rightly punished. Currently AA is powerful and capable in the right hands, in the right circumstances.

    Do I think bombers are perfectly balanced? Nope. It's one of the hardest things to balance in the game. And as a tanker it is perhaps one of my top 3 threats, yet I rarely get bombed, yet alone one hit kill bombed, and when I do, I get mad, but mad at myself because I should have been more aware, I should have reacted accordingly, and that ultimately falls on me.

    I already explained to you why your ideology is incorrect.
    1. This has nothing to do with me or my skill and I already explained why.
    2. Please provide proof of your claims about your friends, I highly doubt your friends are doing 100+ every day on the valentine. Hyperbole at its finest.

    1. Your video and hypothesis does not exist independently of your skill, it is directly proportional to it. Your opinion is a product of your playstyle.
    2. I have many of the top competitive tankers on the leaderboards on my friends list (PS4). If you search for score by tanks you will find many of them have thousands of kills in the Valentine SPAA. It is a very popular choice, especially for farming infantry with the case rounds. Breakthrough Hamada is the best map for them followed by breakthrough or conquest Aerodrome. A friend of mine can even break 100 kills in conquest, yet alone Breakthrough where you can achieve 100 kills in a single sector. My best in the first sector was around 85 but I don’t play Breakthrough much, I’m sure if I played the Valentine SPAA every day loading in on the same maps as many people on the leaderboards do it’d be quite simple, and yes achievable every day unless you get really unlucky with server balance, game duration, etc. Either way it’s not the main point to this thread, considering you were discussing damage output against planes, of which you argued the Wirbelwind is the perfect example of balance, despite it having now been confirmed broken.

    Incorrect.

    My hypothesis comes from study of others in game along with my own experiences. Along with the fact that EVERY SINGLE GAME I enter into that has planes, the planes end up dominating with outrageous scores. This has zero to do with me or my skill. You keep deflecting back to me playing because you cant win the argument, so you keep resorting to your tired attacks.

    Its simple jr, when planes are dominating more than tanks or even infantry. When a single pilot has so much control that they turn the outcome of the game, the game is blatantly unbalanced and will turn people off.

    Lets do some simple math. ZERO customers = ZERO dollars. No game can be balanced to your desire of elite only game play.

    You keep missing the point. Your little clique of friends are the LAST people the devs should be listening to and balancing for. Your little clique cant pay the bills, the masses can.

    I already told you, the video was made to by fun/funny. And regardless of whether the flakpanzer is broken or not does not change the fact that EVEN in its broken state, planes STILL dominate maps.

    Which means the devs have some serious nerfing to do for planes. If the game stays in its current assault/pilot meta, you can bet your bottom dollar people will leave, heck they already are. This game is a sinking ship because people like you push the devs for balance and you have ZERO clue what it means to balance a game.
  • Shrediron
    205 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    Shrediron wrote: »
    As a tanker main I hate getting one shot by bombers as much, if not more, than anyone. I actually think you are being far more reasonable in your response to me here, and inevitably data will be what devs look at to inform their opinion.

    I never felt I was being unreasonable. I have not changed my stance on anything. The difference is that I had to spell it out, but frankly I should not have had to...because to me its just basic 101.

    That said even by your own 2-3 second estimation the Wirbelwind is bugged with double blast damage as its TTK is around half this.

    But as I stated, even IF it is bugged and the damage output is not intended, which based on how weak the valentine is to me (regardless of what gun) would seem to be the case. My fear is seeing the FlakP damage being lowered to pre 2nd patch when ALL AA was useless. I personally think pre jan patch was perfect...but pilots complained.
    I want AA and SPAA to be effective against bombers and fighters alike, however I, and many others, will simply not back down from our belief that it should require a high degree of skill to kill a highly skilled pilot or tanker, whether they are in a bomber, a fighter, an SPAA or a tank.

    I disagree. Frankly its your bias/pride speaking (imo), not balance speaking. You must understand, I give ZERO cares about K/D ratio, and frankly all K/D does is hurt game play and create a toxic environment where one bro has to brag about how amazing he is to the other bro. It also pushes people to kill more than do the objective. Same thing in happens in any score kept game where the score is based on kills. The fundamental issue is that most of the AA in game is stationary. The only skill threshold in SAA is the players ability to track the plane and throttle the fire. In order to balance SAA around the "skill capped" in planes means you need "skill capped" SAA players, which pretty much means perfect accuracy. The issue is that netcode/latency/ping ALONE will not allow for this to happen, so there has to be a buffer. You can't not take all reward from the non-elite player base (the majority) because when people lose more often than they win, they will find something else to do. If an AA player can not kill the plane regardless of how much they try and the pilot is brazen and nose diving directly at the AA, its broken. Period.

    And yes I understand that this goes both ways where the pilots need to win as well, but that is why I am arguing these points because the pilots are not the ones losing right now. I can go into most gamed with planes and find reasonable pilots owning the entire map, EVEN with flakpanzers around.

    Have you ever been frustrated in game because you could not get something done, or something like that happens to me where I get 5 instant deaths in a row simply when spawning REGARDLESS of where I spawn? I get fed up and look for something else to do. The last thing a business wants is their customer being frustrated with their product which will make the customer look for something else. In this case its entertainment. EA DICE right now CAN NOT AFFORD to lose players from BFV because of bad design/decisions that drive the customer to another form of entertainment. Simply put, the game design should not drive customers away to the competition.
    Very often I load in to servers where the balance is not there, where only low level players man the AAs and can be defeated easily, but I also load into servers where top class players are say on Twisted Steel in Wirbelwinds, Ju-88s & Stukas and it’s simply miserable to play vehicles on the other team. In fact I often set myself the challenge to dismantle their air superiority, but also I often squad up because coordinated opposition requires a coordinated response. This game is complex, as you well know.

    Server balance in this game is non-existent, at least by my observation. When I make a funny or a gripe on forums (like this thread) its not based on one or two or three or even 10 experiences. Its based on something I have observed that happens time and time and time and time and time and time again. I then check to see if others observe the same issues. This helps weed out skill, computer, internet, etc if the sample size is large (which admittedly is not as large as I would like).
    Should there be V-1s or 1000kg bombs that one hit kill tanks? Personally I would be better off without them, I can at least agree with you here to some degree, yet they exist, and as such you must adapt your gameplay style or die. If you are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes you can beat a bomber or Stuka. If they are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes they will beat you.

    I am fine with V-1's, they are usually end game clutch tools with limited use. My issue is the exploitation of those mechanics by squads who artificially inflate their score to get the V-1 early, its cheating and circumvents the design goals.

    I disagree with the comment about being smart and beating stuka/bomber. Their ability to navigate around the AA is much more easily done than the AA's inability to navigate or the MAA's slower ability to navigate. For example. That short clip I posted earlier happened becasue I was on high ground, the plane flew low behind our base, pulled up and 1 shot me. I heard him for about 1.7 seconds before he killed me. He must have flown WIDE around the map to ensure I did not see him. There is no escaping that. I could go hide in a gully, but we know that does not work, but neither does being high up. The issue is that not only could I not escape that, I could also not shoot him down before he was out of range/LOS of my guns...the valentine overheats FAST and even the slow gun was useless. Against a good pilot like him with his 75/85 kills I have no options. That is why I made the video. That was not a one off occurrence and not just happening to me. I watch others try to take out planes and some of the AA in game simply wont do it.

    As I stated earlier, no player should have that much consistent control over the playfield, and even Flakpanzers in their allegedly broken state, do not have the power to control the entire playfield like the planes can.
    Is the Valentine SPAA as useless on Hamada Breakthrough as you claim in your screenshot? I’ve gotten 111 kills in the first two sectors alone in one, and killed all their air, and that’s before it was buffed. I have at least 5 people on my friends list who do better than I do in the Valentine SPAA, and they all agree it’s OP, particularly against infantry. Against planes you have a low ROF but a high damage output. You have to be very accurate, and have great leading and tracking abilities, as well as placement with the terrain to escape to cover when the bombers with their 1000KG come looking to troll you. Again, I would rather they didn’t have these bomb, but they do, so adapt or die.
    Please post videos because I have an extremely hard time being convinced that they are as strong right now as you or your friends claim. Regardless of how I spec mine out, I simply do junk damage to bombers. Even fighters escape before I can kill them due to their speed. I fully admit I am the worst player of any game any genre of all time, the literal last place player in the world. THAT being said, your observations do not line up with the numbers (the ones I have collected at least). I see planes dominating left and right wiht extremely high kill counts. MAA, LUCKY to get 10 kills in a match (unless its the flakpanzer), and AA....LOL only if you are finishing off what someone else already started.
    As for planes, or tanks, dominating... Well Breakthrough is notorious for this because you have such a high player density. Combine this with spotting, etc. And it’s going to be intense. Sometimes you load into a server where nobody is interested in taking a fighter up to maintain air superiority and keep bombers grounded. I love playing this role for my fellow squad mates and team. I, much like you, hate bombers, unless they’re in my squad and I’m protecting them.

    True. I see the same issues on Conquest as well. I dont see it on Panzerstorm, but I dont see anyone dominating Panzerstorm. The map size alone helps with balance.
    Anyway, nice to be more civil, I hope you can at the very least appreciate my perspective.

    I totally get your perspective. I just feel the discussion is not over until all questions have been asked and are answered and everyone is on the same playing field. I find it extremely infuriating to see design decisions being done by trial and error( costing time and money) when a strong group brainstorming session can weed out most issues beforehand saving time and money.





    Flakpanzer confirmed bugged by devs, and will be patched in next update:



    As for the rest, I don't know what to say other than what I have said before. To beat top pilots you need to practice, you need to outsmart them, you need to use the proper counters and tactics available to you. I have friends that go on 100+ Valentine SPAA streaks every day. It is possible, but you simply, respectfully, need to adapt your gameplay style or you will be rightly punished. Currently AA is powerful and capable in the right hands, in the right circumstances.

    Do I think bombers are perfectly balanced? Nope. It's one of the hardest things to balance in the game. And as a tanker it is perhaps one of my top 3 threats, yet I rarely get bombed, yet alone one hit kill bombed, and when I do, I get mad, but mad at myself because I should have been more aware, I should have reacted accordingly, and that ultimately falls on me.

    I have friends that go 200+ in Fighters everyday if they can do any one can right, I think that is a good reason AA should be more powerful.

    No, instead we are going back to rounds where pilots destroy every ground unit, never die and ground have no counter. Yet you have the gall to tell others to get good, while pilots now only need to worry about other pilots.


    Ok I appreciate your sarcasm, but seriously consider what you’re actually arguing here, because if your friends were really going 200+ in fighters every day I don’t think you’d suggest that they need some love, as this thread does suggest of the Valentine SPAA.

    If you play breakthrough Hamada there is a high possibility you run into stat padding bomber or fighter nerds, who literally spend their entire game sessions loading in to Devestation, waiting for Hamada to start, then spend the entire game in a bomber, then rinse-repeat. I know many of the top pilots on the leaderboards, including the No. 1 who I squad up with frequently. They all load in on certain maps and play one part of the rotation, therefore you have a high likelihood of running in to such players on these maps. I can tell you that in these discords (I am in the pilot platoon that the No.1 guy is), they all feel AA is a serious threat, in fact so much so that they’ve changed the planes they fly in to counter AA. In fact many of them have stopped straffing even stationary AA altogether with their MGs because it’s too risky in case the user has decent aim. As a result they have resorted to rockets as a counter, foregoing other upgrades. As I said before, to beat a highly skilled player, regardless of what class they play, it typically requires a high degree of skill. This is surely fair? I know that I can kill these pilots in an SPAA, but I also know that they are masters at taking out AA. I can not expect to beat them every time, nor can I expect it to be easy. You need to play smart to beat smart pilots. You need to pick your counters carefully, and know when to engage, and when not to. Do they have air superiority? Are you 1 v 3 against multiple bombers & close air support, etc. These factors are so complicated.

    His point went right over your head...why? Because your POV is all about "WHAT IS GOOD FOR ME", not "WHAT IS GOOD FOR THE GAME".

    If my friends were bragging about going 200+ in fighters, I would call for the planes to be tuned down to bring them inline with the rest of the game. Its not balanced, its not fun being on the receiving end.

    This is simple math.
    Who do the devs upset more. The small % of whiny pilots who EXPECT to rule the skies with 85+ kills in any given round? Or the mass # of people who are sick of dying out of nowhere and sick of plane dominance?

    I'll clue you in. Unless you are selling niche boutique items like Panerai, Pass Labs, or Spyker, then you have no business catering to the elite only. Games run and thrive by catering to the masses. More people are sick of plane dominance than anything else in game.

  • TheSacar
    1005 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    How has this turned into such an exaggeration game?
    - Every round is dominated by pilots?
    - People going 200+ kills with fighters in one round?
    - People going 100+ kills with AA every round?
    - Planes by them selves always turn matches around?
    .
    All else aside, a game in which a very few can dominate based on skill and practice is a much better game than a game in which everybody kills everybody with equal ease completely independent from skill and practice....
    What's the point of doing anything, if you cannot improve yourself through practice?
  • DingoKillr
    3420 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    TheSacar wrote: »
    How has this turned into such an exaggeration game?
    - Every round is dominated by pilots?
    - People going 200+ kills with fighters in one round?
    - People going 100+ kills with AA every round?
    - Planes by them selves always turn matches around?
    .
    All else aside, a game in which a very few can dominate based on skill and practice is a much better game than a game in which everybody kills everybody with equal ease completely independent from skill and practice....
    What's the point of doing anything, if you cannot improve yourself through practice?
    Skill in planes would require very little to no splash damage on any weapon. That is not what we have in the game. Take the TTK a 3 HK takes less skill than 4HK, yet parts of this community wants the quicker TTK.

    Calling for skilled players to dominate is hilarious when we have plane weapons that only require 1 run to destroy tanks or kill whole squads yet so many pilots ask that AA take far longer to destroy planes how is that balanced or letting the most skill win. That simply letting the biggest gun win.

    Then there are threads asking for quicker reload of bombers and more splash for fighter MG just in the last week, how are QoL for pilots going to improve the game for the other 55 players.
  • TheSacar
    1005 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Can we start distinguishing between planes perhaps? Because there is quite a gap in the skill and practice required to do really good in a fighter vs a bomber. I was never a fan of bombers in Battlefield games and I rarely fly them. And bombers have much better survivability against AA than fighters do, while fighters cannot destroy a tank in one attack run.
    .
    The Spitfire VA MG and the G-2 MG both have no splash damage. And, if you see a pilot doing really well, it is much more likely he is flying a bomber. Very few people can actually do really good in fighter planes and in all the rounds I have played I have only seen one other pilot who managed to get 40+ kills in a conquest round using a fighter. I manage to do that, but it seems to me that not many people do. So there is obviously a skill gap between the average fighter pilot and the effective fighter pilot. The learning curve and skill gap for AA gunners is much smaller.
    .
    Yet even for bombers there is a little more skill required than it currently is for AA. Planes are very visible in the sky, ground targets are much harder to see. AA has a much easier time identifying targets. And despite the stupid aiming reticle in bombers perfect bomb placement isn't automatic.
    .
    Also I am not calling for skilled player to dominate. I am just calling for a decent learning curve that lets one improve his effectiveness and kdr through practice. It should be possible to be better than the average gamer, by putting in the effort. It shouldn't be possible for a rank 0 player who has just bought the game to jump into an AA and just easily and without practice kill a pilot who has spent several days of practice to become a good pilot.
  • WinterWarhurst
    1319 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Shrediron wrote: »
    Shrediron wrote: »
    Shrediron wrote: »
    As a tanker main I hate getting one shot by bombers as much, if not more, than anyone. I actually think you are being far more reasonable in your response to me here, and inevitably data will be what devs look at to inform their opinion.

    I never felt I was being unreasonable. I have not changed my stance on anything. The difference is that I had to spell it out, but frankly I should not have had to...because to me its just basic 101.

    That said even by your own 2-3 second estimation the Wirbelwind is bugged with double blast damage as its TTK is around half this.

    But as I stated, even IF it is bugged and the damage output is not intended, which based on how weak the valentine is to me (regardless of what gun) would seem to be the case. My fear is seeing the FlakP damage being lowered to pre 2nd patch when ALL AA was useless. I personally think pre jan patch was perfect...but pilots complained.
    I want AA and SPAA to be effective against bombers and fighters alike, however I, and many others, will simply not back down from our belief that it should require a high degree of skill to kill a highly skilled pilot or tanker, whether they are in a bomber, a fighter, an SPAA or a tank.

    I disagree. Frankly its your bias/pride speaking (imo), not balance speaking. You must understand, I give ZERO cares about K/D ratio, and frankly all K/D does is hurt game play and create a toxic environment where one bro has to brag about how amazing he is to the other bro. It also pushes people to kill more than do the objective. Same thing in happens in any score kept game where the score is based on kills. The fundamental issue is that most of the AA in game is stationary. The only skill threshold in SAA is the players ability to track the plane and throttle the fire. In order to balance SAA around the "skill capped" in planes means you need "skill capped" SAA players, which pretty much means perfect accuracy. The issue is that netcode/latency/ping ALONE will not allow for this to happen, so there has to be a buffer. You can't not take all reward from the non-elite player base (the majority) because when people lose more often than they win, they will find something else to do. If an AA player can not kill the plane regardless of how much they try and the pilot is brazen and nose diving directly at the AA, its broken. Period.

    And yes I understand that this goes both ways where the pilots need to win as well, but that is why I am arguing these points because the pilots are not the ones losing right now. I can go into most gamed with planes and find reasonable pilots owning the entire map, EVEN with flakpanzers around.

    Have you ever been frustrated in game because you could not get something done, or something like that happens to me where I get 5 instant deaths in a row simply when spawning REGARDLESS of where I spawn? I get fed up and look for something else to do. The last thing a business wants is their customer being frustrated with their product which will make the customer look for something else. In this case its entertainment. EA DICE right now CAN NOT AFFORD to lose players from BFV because of bad design/decisions that drive the customer to another form of entertainment. Simply put, the game design should not drive customers away to the competition.
    Very often I load in to servers where the balance is not there, where only low level players man the AAs and can be defeated easily, but I also load into servers where top class players are say on Twisted Steel in Wirbelwinds, Ju-88s & Stukas and it’s simply miserable to play vehicles on the other team. In fact I often set myself the challenge to dismantle their air superiority, but also I often squad up because coordinated opposition requires a coordinated response. This game is complex, as you well know.

    Server balance in this game is non-existent, at least by my observation. When I make a funny or a gripe on forums (like this thread) its not based on one or two or three or even 10 experiences. Its based on something I have observed that happens time and time and time and time and time and time again. I then check to see if others observe the same issues. This helps weed out skill, computer, internet, etc if the sample size is large (which admittedly is not as large as I would like).
    Should there be V-1s or 1000kg bombs that one hit kill tanks? Personally I would be better off without them, I can at least agree with you here to some degree, yet they exist, and as such you must adapt your gameplay style or die. If you are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes you can beat a bomber or Stuka. If they are smart, play well, and don’t make mistakes they will beat you.

    I am fine with V-1's, they are usually end game clutch tools with limited use. My issue is the exploitation of those mechanics by squads who artificially inflate their score to get the V-1 early, its cheating and circumvents the design goals.

    I disagree with the comment about being smart and beating stuka/bomber. Their ability to navigate around the AA is much more easily done than the AA's inability to navigate or the MAA's slower ability to navigate. For example. That short clip I posted earlier happened becasue I was on high ground, the plane flew low behind our base, pulled up and 1 shot me. I heard him for about 1.7 seconds before he killed me. He must have flown WIDE around the map to ensure I did not see him. There is no escaping that. I could go hide in a gully, but we know that does not work, but neither does being high up. The issue is that not only could I not escape that, I could also not shoot him down before he was out of range/LOS of my guns...the valentine overheats FAST and even the slow gun was useless. Against a good pilot like him with his 75/85 kills I have no options. That is why I made the video. That was not a one off occurrence and not just happening to me. I watch others try to take out planes and some of the AA in game simply wont do it.

    As I stated earlier, no player should have that much consistent control over the playfield, and even Flakpanzers in their allegedly broken state, do not have the power to control the entire playfield like the planes can.
    Is the Valentine SPAA as useless on Hamada Breakthrough as you claim in your screenshot? I’ve gotten 111 kills in the first two sectors alone in one, and killed all their air, and that’s before it was buffed. I have at least 5 people on my friends list who do better than I do in the Valentine SPAA, and they all agree it’s OP, particularly against infantry. Against planes you have a low ROF but a high damage output. You have to be very accurate, and have great leading and tracking abilities, as well as placement with the terrain to escape to cover when the bombers with their 1000KG come looking to troll you. Again, I would rather they didn’t have these bomb, but they do, so adapt or die.
    Please post videos because I have an extremely hard time being convinced that they are as strong right now as you or your friends claim. Regardless of how I spec mine out, I simply do junk damage to bombers. Even fighters escape before I can kill them due to their speed. I fully admit I am the worst player of any game any genre of all time, the literal last place player in the world. THAT being said, your observations do not line up with the numbers (the ones I have collected at least). I see planes dominating left and right wiht extremely high kill counts. MAA, LUCKY to get 10 kills in a match (unless its the flakpanzer), and AA....LOL only if you are finishing off what someone else already started.
    As for planes, or tanks, dominating... Well Breakthrough is notorious for this because you have such a high player density. Combine this with spotting, etc. And it’s going to be intense. Sometimes you load into a server where nobody is interested in taking a fighter up to maintain air superiority and keep bombers grounded. I love playing this role for my fellow squad mates and team. I, much like you, hate bombers, unless they’re in my squad and I’m protecting them.

    True. I see the same issues on Conquest as well. I dont see it on Panzerstorm, but I dont see anyone dominating Panzerstorm. The map size alone helps with balance.
    Anyway, nice to be more civil, I hope you can at the very least appreciate my perspective.

    I totally get your perspective. I just feel the discussion is not over until all questions have been asked and are answered and everyone is on the same playing field. I find it extremely infuriating to see design decisions being done by trial and error( costing time and money) when a strong group brainstorming session can weed out most issues beforehand saving time and money.





    Flakpanzer confirmed bugged by devs, and will be patched in next update:



    As for the rest, I don't know what to say other than what I have said before. To beat top pilots you need to practice, you need to outsmart them, you need to use the proper counters and tactics available to you. I have friends that go on 100+ Valentine SPAA streaks every day. It is possible, but you simply, respectfully, need to adapt your gameplay style or you will be rightly punished. Currently AA is powerful and capable in the right hands, in the right circumstances.

    Do I think bombers are perfectly balanced? Nope. It's one of the hardest things to balance in the game. And as a tanker it is perhaps one of my top 3 threats, yet I rarely get bombed, yet alone one hit kill bombed, and when I do, I get mad, but mad at myself because I should have been more aware, I should have reacted accordingly, and that ultimately falls on me.

    I already explained to you why your ideology is incorrect.
    1. This has nothing to do with me or my skill and I already explained why.
    2. Please provide proof of your claims about your friends, I highly doubt your friends are doing 100+ every day on the valentine. Hyperbole at its finest.

    1. Your video and hypothesis does not exist independently of your skill, it is directly proportional to it. Your opinion is a product of your playstyle.
    2. I have many of the top competitive tankers on the leaderboards on my friends list (PS4). If you search for score by tanks you will find many of them have thousands of kills in the Valentine SPAA. It is a very popular choice, especially for farming infantry with the case rounds. Breakthrough Hamada is the best map for them followed by breakthrough or conquest Aerodrome. A friend of mine can even break 100 kills in conquest, yet alone Breakthrough where you can achieve 100 kills in a single sector. My best in the first sector was around 85 but I don’t play Breakthrough much, I’m sure if I played the Valentine SPAA every day loading in on the same maps as many people on the leaderboards do it’d be quite simple, and yes achievable every day unless you get really unlucky with server balance, game duration, etc. Either way it’s not the main point to this thread, considering you were discussing damage output against planes, of which you argued the Wirbelwind is the perfect example of balance, despite it having now been confirmed broken.

    Incorrect.

    My hypothesis comes from study of others in game along with my own experiences. Along with the fact that EVERY SINGLE GAME I enter into that has planes, the planes end up dominating with outrageous scores. This has zero to do with me or my skill. You keep deflecting back to me playing because you cant win the argument, so you keep resorting to your tired attacks.

    Its simple jr, when planes are dominating more than tanks or even infantry. When a single pilot has so much control that they turn the outcome of the game, the game is blatantly unbalanced and will turn people off.

    Lets do some simple math. ZERO customers = ZERO dollars. No game can be balanced to your desire of elite only game play.

    You keep missing the point. Your little clique of friends are the LAST people the devs should be listening to and balancing for. Your little clique cant pay the bills, the masses can.

    I already told you, the video was made to by fun/funny. And regardless of whether the flakpanzer is broken or not does not change the fact that EVEN in its broken state, planes STILL dominate maps.

    Which means the devs have some serious nerfing to do for planes. If the game stays in its current assault/pilot meta, you can bet your bottom dollar people will leave, heck they already are. This game is a sinking ship because people like you push the devs for balance and you have ZERO clue what it means to balance a game.

    How could I possibly be losing the argument when I even proved that your prime example for balance (the Wirbelwind) was confirmed bugged by the developers despite your insistence otherwise.

    As for pilots dominating constantly, it’s not only pilots getting 80+ kills in Breakthrough servers (and again Breakthrough is notoriously spammy for bombers due to high player density on objectives). As I also explained there are many top pilots that spend their entire playing sessions loading in to specific maps, and yes Breakthrough Hamada is at the top of that list. It is for me too, because if I am on the British side I can get hundreds of kills, permitting that the game goes on long enough (it rarely does).

    Your basic argument then is that we should start balancing things in game to the lowest common denominator, basically the basic scrub. This is no way to balance SPAAs, or AA. This is as stupid an argument as balancing something in game to the no.1 player in the world for that given class, an argument I have NOT explicitly made, so I dispute the accusation.

    You started off by denying that your inability to kill the Stuka could possibly be partly dependent on your skill level, positioning, etc. And now you have evolved your position into some democratic crusade seeking balance for the masses and therefore dollars for EA. Yeah duh the the development team’s top priority is player retention, but there are simply so few players that want to play SPAA or sit in spawn all game long on an AA that your own argument is relatively redundant by its own mass criteria. As I said before many features in this game rely on other skilled players to counter skilled players.

    I personally hate bombers, honestly I would be happy if they weren’t in the game, but I would say that as they often counter me, therefore I take it upon myself to often counter them. If nobody in your server is bothering to do so, either do so yourself, or find another server.

    The SPAA IS capable, it’s you that’s seemingly incapable of killing planes with it, nor do you seem interested in actually learning how to improve sufficiently in order to combat pilots that have inevitably practiced and died many times learning what not to do if they want to stay alive.

    You don’t simply get an easy mode because pilots hurt your feelings and make you rage to the point you record your gameplay and have to come and broadcast to public forums simply how poor a player you are, rather than how underpowered they are. For someone that calls themselves a designer, you aren’t very forensic, or willing to accept constructive criticism considering how many different people have pointed out flaws in your gameplay/ positioning, etc. Still you prefer to deflect to EA share value, as if people out there really want an unbalanced game, and as if there aren’t plenty casuals that want to play planes every now and then without getting instashredded by a sweaty nerd sat in spawn on an AA all game long.
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