Master Discussion Thread For BF3 Punkbuster Bans.

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  • ApathyOverdose
    36 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
    By the way, if anyone is interested, from a technical point of view, PunkBuster works like this:
    1. Receive a file with signatures from its server
    2. Scans the computer’s RAM belonging to other processes during BF3(/BF4) operation and searches for signatures from its file.
    3. If it finds at least one match with signatures — you will be banned, but maybe not immediately.

    The last, 3rd, ban I received on June 23. And it was June 23 that was the last update of Avast Anti-Virus.

    Coincidence? Well, I don’t think so. But I'm not sure, of course.

    Alex
  • StarscreamUK
    7269 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    StarscreamUK said:
    But you Are evenbalance users, did you read the agreement before clicking OK?  You agreed to them doing this.



    Are you really actually saying this? xD I hope youre being sarcastic right now man.
    Anyways,
    its not like we have a choice if we want to play battlefield, its
    either accept it or dont play. Like I said before starscream, if you
    have nothing positive or constructive to add, why say something at all?
    This just pours more fuel to the fire and makes you look bad.
    Edit to fix the quote



    Simply stating the fact, you can't say you are not a user of evenbalance because you are by the fact you agree to it.

    Hey its fine if you don't want me to be part of this thread, the fact is I fought to get this thread allowed and I'm the one that sits here and makes sure it stays live. So I'm staying put thanks.
  • ApathyOverdose
    36 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
    Are you really actually saying this? xD I hope youre being sarcastic right now man.
    From a formal point of view, StarscreamUK is right. But it is necessary to find out what the term "user" means exactly. We also are users of Microsoft DirectX and Microsoft Redistributable C++ 2005, which also installed along with BF3. So what?

    Alex
  • aRareMonster
    20 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    But you Are evenbalance users, did you read the agreement before clicking OK?  You agreed to them doing this. 

    You, Sir, are a dying breed. I for one do not know, or have not heard anyone say they actually read the EULA from ANY company. I tip my hat to you, Sir!
    So, pending the release of the Cliff Notes on the Windows OS series EULA ? How was that read of all that legalese mumbo jumbo? Do you share your insights on the differences and intricacies of each and every EULA by companies at social gatherings? Care to elaborate on the subtleties between say, Microsoft, Google, Adobe, and EA?
    I was not expecting EA to wave their responsibilities in an issue, where software provided by a third party, would cripple a product without them being accountable to EA or the customer.
    That is a brilliant way  to dodge that hot potato. It pays to hire all those lawyers and draft those lengthy pieces that nobody but unicorns like you care to read.
    I'll grant you that somewhere, there is a clause that says they would suspend your account, and would promise some sort of appeal. But  I am sure the legalese would let them do it 'at their discretion." Even if it takes 3 years! Yay!
    Oh, I didn't read same said terms for every single release of Windows OS  I  ever purchased either, nor did I for Corel, Adobe, and every single title on Steam I own. I can still use them though. I wonder what they are doing right? But I tell you what.... I played the hell out of a lot of those games. Including BF2, that still would be playing if there were enough servers where I could play.
    Thankfully, I have it on another Id. So those weasels wouldn't block me out of them too. And guess what? I don't cheat there either.


  • StarscreamUK
    7269 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    Well the Microsoft EULA is more complicated than most, allowing them to use your system for p2p transfer of updates and plenty of control over what they can allow you to run on your system.  Did I read all of it? No, I did read the sections I found applicable for my situation.  Considering I use Linux more than windows I'm not overly concerned.

    Just because you didn't read it, doesn't mean it isn't applicable.

    Keep the insults out of this, I haven't insulted you. so I'd appreciate the same respect.
  • ApathyOverdose
    36 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
  • HannoLO22
    35 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield Member
    By the way, if anyone is interested, from a technical point of view, PunkBuster works like this:
    1. Receive a file with signatures from its server
    2. Scans the computer’s RAM belonging to other processes during BF3(/BF4) operation and searches for signatures from its file.
    3. If it finds at least one match with signatures — you will be banned, but maybe not immediately.

    The last, 3rd, ban I received on June 23. And it was June 23 that was the last update of Avast Anti-Virus.

    Coincidence? Well, I don’t think so. But I'm not sure, of course.

    Alex

    Me2
    23. June too.

    I got Avast Free Antivirus.
    I noticed the ban only one day later because my router was reconectiong over and over again at the 23.6. So i quite gameing for this day. at the 24. i was banned(FALSE of course!).
    I also got many mesages from this antivir programm that the connection to "www.2sol.de" is blocked because its phishing.
    I didnt visite that side.

    Now an Admin from BF4 banned me because I am banned at BF3.
    Cancer spreads! :D

  • ApathyOverdose
    36 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
     Hannibal11223

    Oops! Too many coincidences, as for me.

    Actually, I'm not so surprised. The signature search method, by definition, MUST give false positives from time to time. And those of us who are involved in IT often hear such stories when antiviruses themselves give false positives and find "viruses" on computers.

    The difference is that anti-virus software vendors are much more adequate than Even Balance.

    P.S. While I was writing these lines, an idea occurred to me. Theoretically, the same signature can be found in both the antivirus database and the PunkBuster database. In this case, if the antivirus loads it into memory when the OS starts, then later, when BF3/4 and PunkBuster are launched, the latter will detect this signature in the memory of the antivirus process. Bingo! Cheater discovered! (and banned)
  • HannoLO22
    35 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield Member
    Yeah. A hacker is planting the BF cheat inside a well know trojan and send it to the antivier company. The take the signiture into their database and BOOM people get banned. X_X
    And they got banned because of a well know signiture, not an unknow one.

  • HiyaHiyaCthulhu
    22 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
    I actually use avast anti-virus aswell... Its a longshot but since Im not not really satisfied with avast as it is I might aswell try another AV and give BF3 another go and if I dont get insta-banned Ill spread the news.
  • aRareMonster
    20 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Well the Microsoft EULA is more complicated than most, allowing them to use your system for p2p transfer of updates and plenty of control over what they can allow you to run on your system.  Did I read all of it? No, I did read the sections I found applicable for my situation.  Considering I use Linux more than windows I'm not overly concerned.

    Just because you didn't read it, doesn't mean it isn't applicable.

    Keep the insults out of this, I haven't insulted you. so I'd appreciate the same respect.

    Am I bitter about this situation? Yes I am.
    Is my bitterness aimed at you? Absolutely not.
    Did I mean to insult you? No, Sir. You have not insulted me, and I have no beef with you. Even though I find your willingness  to defend  EA for not being more protective of their customers' interest, laudable, but in the long run you will find that loyalty will not run both ways. Should I remind you it's been going on for years now?
    But I apologize if I did offend you, there was no intention. I referred to you as a unicorn - a unique creature - something rare, because who reads these things?

    It's interesting you read the EULA - I tried and stopped soon after - but most people don't. 

    There is a difference, though, between an issue that is plaguing legitimate customers and is simply dismissed as 'you accepted their terms of service', and same issue addressed by the purveyor of a service/product when they realize something needs to be done to serve honest gamers.
    Hackers and cheaters deserve to never even have the chance to purchase any license or any game even, as far as I'm concerned. But I am willing to wager a lot of these people have honest grievances. I have used PB since the earlier days of America's Army, BF2, BF4 and some others which I can't remember. And for years I have never had an issue. But recently I found out there are a lot of cheaters around... and apparently I am one of them. That's news to me.
  • aRareMonster
    20 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member

    Huh... whaddaya know?

    "IN THE EVENT THAT THE GAME DETECTS AN UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM, THE GAME MAY (A) COMMUNICATE INFORMATION BACK TO EA, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION YOUR ACCOUNT NAME, DETAILS ABOUT THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM DETECTED, AND THE TIME AND DATE THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM WAS DETECTED; AND /OR (B) EA MAY EXERCISE ANY OR ALL OF ITS RIGHTS UNDER THIS AGREEMENT, WITH OR WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE TO THE USER."

      So while EA has no "authority" to revoke bans, they do get the information regarding the nature of the ban/kick.
    Heck, I want know. I need to know what legitimately purchased software I am using that would cause such an scenario that it would have a pseudo security company prevent me to use another legitimately acquired game as intended by the license.

    Interesting! In this case EA is not complying to their own terms and agreements.
  • StarscreamUK
    7269 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    Whart part of their own terms do you think they are not complying with?  Bear in mind it says "MAY" not that it "WILL"
  • ApathyOverdose
    36 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
    Whart part of their own terms do you think they are not complying with?  Bear in mind it says "MAY" not that it "WILL"
    You interpret the agreements very freely, biting them only that confirms your point of view. Try to consider them in a complex. I tried (https://forums.battlefield.com/en-us/discussion/comment/1581794/#Comment_1581794).
  • StarscreamUK
    7269 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    Something is obviously being lost in translation here.

    You still dont say what part of their toc you think they are breaking.  You listed the eula, you obviously think they are breaking it, but where?
  • ApathyOverdose
    36 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
    Something is obviously being lost in translation here.

    You still dont say what part of their toc you think they are breaking.  You listed the eula, you obviously think they are breaking it, but where?
    EA EULA tells us that:

    - PunkBuster sends information to EA, not to Even Balance.

    - In the event that the game detects an unauthorized third party program, the game (!) may communicate information back to EA (!); and /or EA (!) may exercise any or all of its rights under this agreement, with or without prior notice to the user.

    Thus, it's declared that EA, and not Even Balance, is responsible for any actions (and inaction) in relation to cheaters, real or false. EA does not preserve room for itself to say "this is not our business." They write in the EULA that this is definitely their business, not the 3rd side.
  • StarscreamUK
    7269 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    Except it doesnt say "- PunkBuster sends information to EA, not to Even Balance."

    it says it MAY send information to EA not that it does.  Thats the EULA from EA.

    The punkbuster one which you agree to if you install it, specifically states

    Licensee understands that PunkBuster software inspects and reports information about the computer on which it is installed to other connected computers and Licensee agrees to allow PunkBuster software to inspect and report such information about the computer on which Licensee installs PunkBuster software. Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be inspected and reported by PunkBuster software includes, but is not limited to, Licensee's Internet Protocol Address, devices and any files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer on which PunkBuster software is installed.

    This is the part you agreed to to allow punkbuster to report back to evenbalance, not EA.  So as I stated, EA haven't broken their own terms and conditions.
  • ApathyOverdose
    36 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member
    edited August 6
    Well, I'm not a lawyer. But, as far as I see, you are not a lawyer even more than me. Let me remind you that the practice of legal agreements is that they list all possible or potential actions or ways to carry out these actions. These documents cover all, even unlikely, areas. And, as a result, if something is not indicated in them, then this is not provided for.

    The Even Balance agreement says reports can be sent, but it doesn't say where exactly.

    At the same time, the EA agreement says that reports may be sent to EA, but may not be sent. EA may also take action, or may not. But it does not say that EA delegates its authority to anyone, including but not limited to Even Balance.

    None of these agreements say that Even Balance has the right to carry out any actions in relation to users. From the point of view of these agreements, Even Balance does not exist as an independent actor, EA is fully responsible for the complex product sold to the user, and this is clearly declared.

    I suppose you are familiar with the concept of white and black lists?

    So, any EULA is a whitelist. What is explicitly stated is permitted. Everything else is forbidden.
  • HannoLO22
    35 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield Member
    edited August 6
    I got banned from a BF4 server yesterday because I got this global ban in BF3. It looks like the admins just add the banned people on their lists from time to time. The ban reason was something like "permament ban, because of a global ban in Bf3"....
    Sooner or later every server bans me. Would I buy BF1 or 5 I would get the same problem.
    Even it has no PB.

    That´s even worse than this BF3 ban!
    The only thing you can do is deinstalling origin, forever of course.
  • ApathyOverdose
    36 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Member

    Would I buy BF1 or 5 I would get the same problem. 

    Just FYI: BF1 and BF5 doesn't use PunkBuster.
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