Why is this taken so lightly by game publishers?

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5hadyBrady
445 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
edited May 5
I want to preface this saying, I specifically avoided posting this in the 300 page cheat thread, because this isn't necessarily about cheating in Battlefield 5. This post is intended to help people change the way they think about the subject overall. If an individual were to hack your private home network, they would be arrested, and prosecuted. If an individual were to walk into a private business, and attempt to destroy it, they would be arrested and prosecuted. However, if individuals sell software that is exclusively used to destroy a private business, and is used on privately owned servers, nothing seems to give. The publishers don't seem to realize how much authority they have here. Take EA for example. EA is a multi-billion dollar company with almost 10,000 employees. EA pays taxes, and so do the 10,000 employees. When an individual develops software that is used to target one of EA's private businesses , on their privately owned servers, you would think the incentive to not only stop it, but take action against the people doing it, would be much higher. I expect 12 year old kids to fail to understand the magnitude of what they're actually doing when they do something like this, however, the folks making and selling the software are criminals. They are developing software that is used to destroy a business, and they sell it for a mint. The publishers don't even send these websites a cease and desist. It's like criminals have taken over PC gaming, and the publishers have every legal incentive to stop it, and they don't. It blows my mind. It's almost as if the publishers don't even realize how serious this is. It is against the rules to say naughty words, but , if you want to destroy their private business, by all means. It's rather confusing.

Comments

  • Mhill2029
    124 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 7
    You make a valid point, I've always wondered myself why such a company wouldn't take an aggressive stance against such activities and the websites that distribute the tools in the first place. And your right again, that offensive language seems to be taken more seriously than something that's truly destroying their ecosystem. Sometimes, I do wonder how these massive cooperation's became so successful with the way they handle situations.

    I mean they take bad language and racism seriously (rightly so), but I've seen 100's of ppl ingame saying the same crap. (profanity removed by moderator). Oh but we're supposed to report it? Why can't this sort of crap be monitored round the god damn clock without the need for a player to report it themselves? Can't they write an algorithm that flags and bans a user of such obscenities?

    Quite frankly, if you have the means to develop a game of this sophistication. You can't do something simple like above?
    Post edited by Carbonic on
  • 5hadyBrady
    445 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 7
    Mhill2029 said:
    You make a valid point, I've always wondered myself why such a company wouldn't take an aggressive stance against such activities and the websites that distribute the tools in the first place. And your right again, that offensive language seems to be taken more seriously than something that's truly destroying their ecosystem. Sometimes, I do wonder how these massive cooperation's became so successful with the way they handle situations.

    I mean they take bad language and racism seriously (rightly so), but I've seen 100's of ppl ingame saying the same crap. (profanity removed by moderator). Oh but we're supposed to report it? Why can't this sort of crap be monitored round the god damn clock without the need for a player to report it themselves? Can't they write an algorithm that flags and bans a user of such obscenities?

    Quite frankly, if you have the means to develop a game of this sophistication. You can't do something simple like above?
    Yeah 100%. I don't fault EA for taking the language seriously. I think they are correct in censoring the forums, because the inappropriate language isn't productive. I just don't know why they're not taking the actual attacks on their business as seriously as something like that. I just wanted to walk people up to the same ledge I was looking over, because I think cheating is not taken as seriously as it should be. If people frame it properly, it's nothing more than destroying somebody's private business. We prosecute people for doing that in every other instance, except this one. It's not just "cheating in a game". You're quite literally ruining a business, and people can lose their jobs. We should value a productive company who pays taxes and employees people more than we value the right of a person to distribute software for no other purpose but to destroy or attack somebody's business.

    Post edited by Carbonic on
  • StarscreamUK
    7340 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    edited May 7
    "Can't they write an algorithm that flags and bans a user of such obscenities?"

    If they did, you would just have been banned.  Because you said it.  Even though you were asking a question, you said the very words.  As the filter in game has shown, no matter what algorithm is used, there are always ways around it.


  • SteveZee
    359 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 7
    Hacking is a criminal offense, but it may depend on what you do. 

    Selling software is not hacking. Its not illegal to hack software, or write cheats for it. That's contract law. You wont do jail time. Reshader is a good example of something that "Modifies the game" in much the same way cheats do.

    Breaking denovo DRM to get at the code itself is an offense for sure. However, watching memory, looking for functions, and modifying memory isn't.

    The reason they dont go after hackers is typically because they'd have to go overseas to do so. And that takes lots of time and money to do. Often its not even remotely worth doing because the people who produce hacks are very good at hiding their tracks. That or the country they live in have laws that prevent prosecution from other countries.
    Post edited by SteveZee on
  • crapjon
    160 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Cheaters pay for games just like us non-cheaters. EA, obviously, doesn't care about the quality of their products. As long as they get their money upfront then it doesn't matter to them what happens after that.

    They'll even shut down whole regions of servers only 6 months after the game releases.
  • Niick1402
    80 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    SteveZee said:
    Hacking is a criminal offense, but it may depend on what you do. 

    Selling software is not hacking. Its not illegal to hack software, or write cheats for it. That's contract law. You wont do jail time. Reshader is a good example of something that "Modifies the game" in much the same way cheats do.

    Breaking denovo DRM to get at the code itself is an offense for sure. However, watching memory, looking for functions, and modifying memory isn't.

    The reason they dont go after hackers is typically because they'd have to go overseas to do so. And that takes lots of time and money to do. Often its not even remotely worth doing because the people who produce hacks are very good at hiding their tracks. That or the country they live in have laws that prevent prosecution from other countries.
    I'm pretty sure Rockstar games/Take Two interactive have won a court battle against a US based cheat creator. PUBG took legal actions aswell i believe but i'm not sure what the outcome was.
  • StarscreamUK
    7340 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    The UK isnt a region, Europe is a region.  The UK is in Europe, that wont change.
  • SteveZee
    359 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    And you seriously think people are going to put someone in jail for writing a cheat for a video game? That's kind of silly and a waste of tax dollars. Its far better to just shut down the people doing it and attempt to go after the points of entry to other countries via pay/free VPNs.
  • Mhill2029
    124 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    "Can't they write an algorithm that flags and bans a user of such obscenities?"

    If they did, you would just have been banned.  Because you said it.  Even though you were asking a question, you said the very words.  As the filter in game has shown, no matter what algorithm is used, there are always ways around it.


    Well in the case of the things I said above (which you removed). Which is not a question, could quite easily be flagged and any iteration of it.  It's getting out of hand how obscene ppl are becoming in game. Sure I have thick skin and most of it is of no consequence to me, but when your talking about ppl's children/families in the way they do or wishing a terminal illness on ppl. You should be removed from the community. (3 strikes and your out)

  • Niick1402
    80 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    SteveZee said:
    And you seriously think people are going to put someone in jail for writing a cheat for a video game? That's kind of silly and a waste of tax dollars. Its far better to just shut down the people doing it and attempt to go after the points of entry to other countries via pay/free VPNs.
    There's other punishments then sending someone to jail. It's up to a judge to decide what a fair penalty is. I'm confused what you mean with: "go after points of entry to other countries via VPNs.".
  • StarscreamUK
    7340 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    "I'm pretty sure Rockstar games/Take Two interactive have won a court battle against a US based cheat creator. PUBG took legal actions as well i believe but i'm not sure what the outcome was."

    Rockstar hey won because it was a US based company pursuing a US citizen whose direct actions interfered in the sale of virtual currency.

    The p[ubg cheats were more than just giving shady players an unfair advantage, the software was mining users' computers for login information and personal data.

    Not just cheating, it's those further cause & effect actions.

    If it was such a simple thing as a cheat seller, there wouldnt be any as it would be so easy to close them.  The sad fact is, it isnt that easy to get them.
  • crapjon
    160 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    The UK isnt a region, Europe is a region.  The UK is in Europe, that wont change.

    Region is an arbitrary word. Your definition is one of many. The central region of the US does not have servers. The region of Europe with no servers anymore is the UK.
  • SteveZee
    359 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Niick1402 said:
    SteveZee said:
    And you seriously think people are going to put someone in jail for writing a cheat for a video game? That's kind of silly and a waste of tax dollars. Its far better to just shut down the people doing it and attempt to go after the points of entry to other countries via pay/free VPNs.
    There's other punishments then sending someone to jail. It's up to a judge to decide what a fair penalty is. I'm confused what you mean with: "go after points of entry to other countries via VPNs.".
    But it would have to be illegal to begin with. Its not illegal to write cheat software. Its not even copyright. No one has successfully defended that claim in court. Its up to the judge to decide the sentence according to the penalty written in law. But there is leeway. However, wasting time prosecuting software writers is silly to begin with. What if i use cheats in single player games? Then i have to defend writing a cheat for a game i play, on my own computer which i have every right to tinker around with.

    VPNS are how cheaters duck IP bans. Especially from other countries. Since IP is absolutely paramount to establish a connection, going after spoofed IPs is one way to solve the problem.
  • 5hadyBrady
    445 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    SteveZee said:
    Niick1402 said:
    SteveZee said:
    And you seriously think people are going to put someone in jail for writing a cheat for a video game? That's kind of silly and a waste of tax dollars. Its far better to just shut down the people doing it and attempt to go after the points of entry to other countries via pay/free VPNs.
    There's other punishments then sending someone to jail. It's up to a judge to decide what a fair penalty is. I'm confused what you mean with: "go after points of entry to other countries via VPNs.".
    But it would have to be illegal to begin with. Its not illegal to write cheat software. Its not even copyright. No one has successfully defended that claim in court. Its up to the judge to decide the sentence according to the penalty written in law. But there is leeway. However, wasting time prosecuting software writers is silly to begin with. What if i use cheats in single player games? Then i have to defend writing a cheat for a game i play, on my own computer which i have every right to tinker around with.

    VPNS are how cheaters duck IP bans. Especially from other countries. Since IP is absolutely paramount to establish a connection, going after spoofed IPs is one way to solve the problem.
    This is why I think we should talk about it. You are correct, it's not illegal. Maybe it should be? Even if it's not technically illegal,  it doesn't mean you can't start with a civil lawsuit. The people selling that software are making a mint off the destruction of your business. They are destroying your business for profit. The websites that are distributing this software are often times in North America (US). I'm not going to spread the URL for sites like that in a public setting. I looked into this because another user said these sites are most often in other countries. While that may be true, I was still able to find massive forums and websites in North America that are distributing cheats for this specific game, and hundreds of others. Some of this software has been downloaded tens of thousands of times. You can see a download count, and like number. Imagine if that single cheat wasn't downloaded by 16 thousand people, who were presumably in the servers with us? There are dozens of cheats on that same website. So, the excuse of "these people are out of the country" is just that, it's an excuse. At the very least they could have a website like that shut down. There isn't a judge in the country that would side with the web owners if presented properly.
  • SteveZee
    359 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    SteveZee said:
    Niick1402 said:
    SteveZee said:
    And you seriously think people are going to put someone in jail for writing a cheat for a video game? That's kind of silly and a waste of tax dollars. Its far better to just shut down the people doing it and attempt to go after the points of entry to other countries via pay/free VPNs.
    There's other punishments then sending someone to jail. It's up to a judge to decide what a fair penalty is. I'm confused what you mean with: "go after points of entry to other countries via VPNs.".
    But it would have to be illegal to begin with. Its not illegal to write cheat software. Its not even copyright. No one has successfully defended that claim in court. Its up to the judge to decide the sentence according to the penalty written in law. But there is leeway. However, wasting time prosecuting software writers is silly to begin with. What if i use cheats in single player games? Then i have to defend writing a cheat for a game i play, on my own computer which i have every right to tinker around with.

    VPNS are how cheaters duck IP bans. Especially from other countries. Since IP is absolutely paramount to establish a connection, going after spoofed IPs is one way to solve the problem.
    This is why I think we should talk about it. You are correct, it's not illegal. Maybe it should be? Even if it's not technically illegal,  it doesn't mean you can't start with a civil lawsuit. The people selling that software are making a mint off the destruction of your business. They are destroying your business for profit. The websites that are distributing this software are often times in North America (US). I'm not going to spread the URL for sites like that in a public setting. I looked into this because another user said these sites are most often in other countries. While that may be true, I was still able to find massive forums and websites in North America that are distributing cheats for this specific game, and hundreds of others. Some of this software has been downloaded tens of thousands of times. You can see a download count, and like number. Imagine if that single cheat wasn't downloaded by 16 thousand people, who were presumably in the servers with us? There are dozens of cheats on that same website. So, the excuse of "these people are out of the country" is just that, it's an excuse. At the very least they could have a website like that shut down. There isn't a judge in the country that would side with the web owners if presented properly.
    I will never defend the notion that it should be illegal to write software on ones own PC. I dont care what the reason is. Its too much of a slippery slope.

    Sure they can sue someone for breach of EULA, but they wont care to try to sue someone they'll never get any money out of. Tort suits are only meant to hurt someone in the pocketbook so they dont do it again. Which will never happen w/ cheat writers.

    Destruction of business? Not really. You might make a case for pirates, but cheat writers aren't destroying anyones business. One could easily blame EA for not implementing and putting money into R&D to produce better anti cheats and/or better banning abilities. EA is coming out on top w/ this game. They made far less profit from the lack of sales than the cheaters in game. Cheaters rarely destroy a games business potential as long as something is done to curb it.

    You could go after the websites spreading it for sure. That's far better, but does nothing.  Not when someone can easily goto any website anywhere else to get it. Shut one down, another pops up. Ill bet they have tried this, but it doesn't stick.
  • Niick1402
    80 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    SteveZee said:
    Niick1402 said:
    SteveZee said:
    And you seriously think people are going to put someone in jail for writing a cheat for a video game? That's kind of silly and a waste of tax dollars. Its far better to just shut down the people doing it and attempt to go after the points of entry to other countries via pay/free VPNs.
    There's other punishments then sending someone to jail. It's up to a judge to decide what a fair penalty is. I'm confused what you mean with: "go after points of entry to other countries via VPNs.".
    But it would have to be illegal to begin with. Its not illegal to write cheat software. Its not even copyright. No one has successfully defended that claim in court. Its up to the judge to decide the sentence according to the penalty written in law. But there is leeway. However, wasting time prosecuting software writers is silly to begin with. What if i use cheats in single player games? Then i have to defend writing a cheat for a game i play, on my own computer which i have every right to tinker around with.

    VPNS are how cheaters duck IP bans. Especially from other countries. Since IP is absolutely paramount to establish a connection, going after spoofed IPs is one way to solve the problem.

    I did a quick google search and creating cheating software is a copyright infringement (US+EU) as they modify the game. Even just using a cheat(s) seems to be illegal, atleast that's what the lawyers working for Epic Games believe as they have sued a (14 year old) player for doing so. There's a few reasons that make sense for it to be illegal. (reputation damage, potentially financial damages, violation of EULA, ...) Publishers/ Developers aren't going to take any action against you for using/creating cheats in singleplayer games but if they wanted to do so they could. You don't have the right to modify bought software on your computer in any way (in most cases bc of EULA)  because you don't own the software, you only have a license to use it. Also i'm not a lawyer so i may be wrong but this is what i found on credible sites.
    .
    There's other ways then using a VPN to hide your IP. Also there's usually more than 1 person using a vpn server ip so if you block it you may also target innocent people and my vpn has a protocol to connect with that's supposed to make the vpn undetectable to sites/services. (unless they know a certain ip is from a vpn server.)  I know it works 100% as i couldn't access Chinese sites without using it to connect to my vpn-server.

  • g0merpile
    692 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    SteveZee said:
    Hacking is a criminal offense, but it may depend on what you do. 

    Selling software is not hacking. Its not illegal to hack software, or write cheats for it. That's contract law. You wont do jail time. Reshader is a good example of something that "Modifies the game" in much the same way cheats do.

    Breaking denovo DRM to get at the code itself is an offense for sure. However, watching memory, looking for functions, and modifying memory isn't.

    The reason they dont go after hackers is typically because they'd have to go overseas to do so. And that takes lots of time and money to do. Often its not even remotely worth doing because the people who produce hacks are very good at hiding their tracks. That or the country they live in have laws that prevent prosecution from other countries.

    No debate about using cheats being lawful or not. Reverse engineering is against TOS. Using cheats is exactly that.
  • SteveZee
    359 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 10
    Niick1402 said:

    I did a quick google search and creating cheating software is a copyright infringement (US+EU) as they modify the game. Even just using a cheat(s) seems to be illegal, atleast that's what the lawyers working for Epic Games believe as they have sued a (14 year old) player for doing so. There's a few reasons that make sense for it to be illegal. (reputation damage, potentially financial damages, violation of EULA, ...) Publishers/ Developers aren't going to take any action against you for using/creating cheats in singleplayer games but if they wanted to do so they could. You don't have the right to modify bought software on your computer in any way (in most cases bc of EULA)  because you don't own the software, you only have a license to use it. Also i'm not a lawyer so i may be wrong but this is what i found on credible sites.
    .
    There's other ways then using a VPN to hide your IP. Also there's usually more than 1 person using a vpn server ip so if you block it you may also target innocent people and my vpn has a protocol to connect with that's supposed to make the vpn undetectable to sites/services. (unless they know a certain ip is from a vpn server.)  I know it works 100% as i couldn't access Chinese sites without using it to connect to my vpn-server.

    It isn't copyright infringement. Nowhere does copyright disallow you to write cheats that modify software. Copy right is when you reproduce software for sale. If anyone wrote a cheat that somehow copied code, and then sold it, that would be infringement. However, cheats that do not copy code, but merely modify it (ie cursor location), isn't copyright.

    Link the post you read about this. ILl bet its posted by some laymen who has no idea what copyright is.

    I suppose some people who are innocent could be using a VPN to connect, so i see your point. 
    Post edited by SteveZee on
  • TheDudeAbides333
    8 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Game developers have to go after the money, in other words go after the credit card company’s that do business with the websites that distribute the cheats. Cut off the hack developers money flow. It’s all about the Benjamins :)
  • SteveZee
    359 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    g0merpile said:
    SteveZee said:
    Hacking is a criminal offense, but it may depend on what you do. 

    Selling software is not hacking. Its not illegal to hack software, or write cheats for it. That's contract law. You wont do jail time. Reshader is a good example of something that "Modifies the game" in much the same way cheats do.

    Breaking denovo DRM to get at the code itself is an offense for sure. However, watching memory, looking for functions, and modifying memory isn't.

    The reason they dont go after hackers is typically because they'd have to go overseas to do so. And that takes lots of time and money to do. Often its not even remotely worth doing because the people who produce hacks are very good at hiding their tracks. That or the country they live in have laws that prevent prosecution from other countries.

    No debate about using cheats being lawful or not. Reverse engineering is against TOS. Using cheats is exactly that.
    Yes the debate is about writing cheats being lawful or not. REad the OP Post.
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