[Megathread] BFV and Cheating Discussion

Comments

  • Carbonic
    1829 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    edited December 2019
    We want you to make hardware ban and ban list public.
    you dont have to warry about hackers privacy.
    You might think hackers don't deserve privacy or to have their data protected, I might not think so too, but I'm pretty sure international data protection and privacy laws like GDPR don't care what we or EA think about the issue.
  • QU4NT0R
    43 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Carbonic said:
    We want you to make hardware ban and ban list public.
    you dont have to warry about hackers privacy.
    You might think hackers don't deserve privacy or to have their data protected, I might not think so too, but I'm pretty sure international data protection and privacy laws like GDPR don't care what we or EA think about the issue.


    I know that EA (and also others) love to use this as an excuse. But this would only matter if those cheaters would use their real names and addresses as Gamer-Tags. As all Tags are anonymous and can be changed as often as we want to we're talking about "fictionary" characters… So naming and shaming would not be violating the GDPR or the Germaan DSGVO (which is the tightest in Europe)… In no way would this violation any privacies or data protection laws.  If we would talk about a famous Game-Tag, which is used by a famous YouTuber or Twitcher or Celebrity then it would also not be a violation as those are "People of Interest" which have chosen by themselves to become "well-known"...
  • Carbonic
    1829 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    edited December 2019
    QU4NT0R said:
    Carbonic said:
    We want you to make hardware ban and ban list public.
    you dont have to warry about hackers privacy.
    You might think hackers don't deserve privacy or to have their data protected, I might not think so too, but I'm pretty sure international data protection and privacy laws like GDPR don't care what we or EA think about the issue.


    I know that EA (and also others) love to use this as an excuse. But this would only matter if those cheaters would use their real names and addresses as Gamer-Tags. As all Tags are anonymous and can be changed as often as we want to we're talking about "fictionary" characters… So naming and shaming would not be violating the GDPR or the Germaan DSGVO (which is the tightest in Europe)… In no way would this violation any privacies or data protection laws.  If we would talk about a famous Game-Tag, which is used by a famous YouTuber or Twitcher or Celebrity then it would also not be a violation as those are "People of Interest" which have chosen by themselves to become "well-known"...
    Oh, I'm sure there's a way it could be done. I'm however also pretty sure that that the lawyers and IT people that implement GDPR compliance in big companies still have work to do and sharing user data about cheaters to other users is probably not very high on their priority list. This is just a guess ofc. but I would imagine that legal departments in many companies went crazy with not sharing raw user data publically and halted it until the impacts of GDPR and its general practices can be determined. I think a banlist is specifically problematic because you are sharing data to unknown third parties and thus you can't implement the user rights easily, like the right to be forgotten.

    In short, I don't know any internal EA information about this issue, I'm just guessing and I'm not saying a banlist can't be done. What I'm saying is that how it should be done is probably questionable to the legal departments and it's implementation will not be as easy as it used to be and would require more development time.

    Public banlists have many advantages like quick TTB (time to ban) but banlists also have many issues like the problem with high amounts of false positives which probably causes a bunch of support calls which also costs money. That's another discussion however but the issues with banlists + extra development time + GDPR iffyness are all points against spending time and money on them. I'm not in the anti-cheat business but I do wonder if resources at this point are not spent better on automatic detection and prevention measures. That's my guess from a business standpoint anyway - anything, any new community building features, even public banlists I would welcome at this point.
  • OftenShot
    93 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Think we are in for a rough ride with cheaters over Xmas. Near enough every game I've played today on Wake has had more than a few cheaters in them. The one's masquerading in planes & tanks are worst for unbalancing a game.

    If the future BF VI goes cross platform with the same attitude towards cheating the console players will make 5.2 condemnation look like a storm in tea cup!
  • KapitainKavern
    44 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    perhaps with cross platform and cheatin against console (from pc) then Dice will do something......

  • Rattoner
    330 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2019
    https://forums.battlefield.com/en-us/profile/Rattoner
    @Rattoner it's nothing wrong with your skills you are simply shooting on the wrong target
    Subject was cheating using Spectur mode with 2 account in the same time
    With Spectur modeThey are unusually strong extra Health is on of that 
    I was definitely shooting the wrong target, but what upset me is that my 981 RPM gun was firing off (not close to over heating) and the cheater ran SMACK DAB with his face into my line of fire at a distance of 3 feet. On my screen his face was being completely pummeled with my bullets. Should have been an instant death, but when he one shot me and walked away with 50% health I just logged. 

    I see no reason now to play this game whatsoever. 
  • ColesFlexili
    177 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    RRedux said:
    Still no replies from dice I see.

    So this megathread is just another attempt to placate players without actually doing anything. Much like the blog post in february. 
    Jup...same here. every day i come to this forum just to see if dace announces a change in the anti cheat so i can finally start playing again. but thats in vain i guess.
  • DigitalHype
    832 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    EA/DICEs no name and shame policy predates GDPR by years. It is a weak excuse. Other gaming compaines doing business in the UK don't have this same forum policy and aren't suffering financial loss from this regulation.

    The real reason that policy was created is to prevent EA from having to deal with backlash for those claiming to be falsely accused, and all the forum bickering.  As far as I understand, all the moderators are entirely volunteer and unpaid. There are only so many free cycles available to police forums. Probably also why this megathread returned, after the "close all the cheat threads" was becoming unsustainable.

    I do believe that EA/DICE are horribly negligent when it comes to anticheat efforts in Battlefield.  But, I don't believe they intentionally instituted this policy to protect cheaters. It just ended up being a convenient side-effect of their a bad policy. In that a measureable slice of sales is from PC players who cheat.

    Nothing in this thread will improve the situation. EA will never do more than a boilerplate repsonse. There will not be any discussion with anyone of consequence at EA. The only way to get them to change course is to not buy their games and make it clear why.
  • rubicscube78
    5 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Well, here is my quick rant. Played Wake Island yesterday and of course there is not 1 not 2 but 3 blatant cheaters. 2 on the opposite team and one on mine. Anyway recorded a bunch of gamplay and reported them to DICE,used the gameplay as evidence. BTW, visit my youtube channel if you can. What i cant believe is he was rank near 60. How could fairfight not catch him by now? I mean this guy(s) was ,well, rage hacking. 200+ kills to 5-10 deaths(deaths only from tanks and planes.
  • Carbonic
    1829 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    EA/DICEs no name and shame policy predates GDPR by years. It is a weak excuse. Other gaming compaines doing business in the UK don't have this same forum policy and aren't suffering financial loss from this regulation.

    The real reason that policy was created is to prevent EA from having to deal with backlash for those claiming to be falsely accused, and all the forum bickering.  As far as I understand, all the moderators are entirely volunteer and unpaid. There are only so many free cycles available to police forums. Probably also why this megathread returned, after the "close all the cheat threads" was becoming unsustainable.

    I do believe that EA/DICE are horribly negligent when it comes to anticheat efforts in Battlefield.  But, I don't believe they intentionally instituted this policy to protect cheaters. It just ended up being a convenient side-effect of their a bad policy. In that a measureable slice of sales is from PC players who cheat.

    Nothing in this thread will improve the situation. EA will never do more than a boilerplate repsonse. There will not be any discussion with anyone of consequence at EA. The only way to get them to change course is to not buy their games and make it clear why.
    I think you are getting things mixed up here. I personally believe the reasons that:
    A: Forum name and shame
    &
    B: Public Banlists 
    not being things that are there due to 2 different sets of reasons.

    (A) I don't see is a thing because it would fill up the forum with accusations - mob mentality causing the forum to be judge jury and executioner / guilty until proven innocent, there will be valid threads but also plenty of people who don't know how to spot cheaters will hang out to dry innocent people. It would make the forum harder to navigate and find proper discussions on and it would be a more negative experience overall. Lastly, there is little point in naming and shaming people on the forum, the Terms of Service people use the reports from Origin and whatever internal tools they might have to gather information about who to look into, they don't look at the forum and it kinda makes sense as the forum would be a horrible place to collect such information.
    I was not talking about the forum when I talked about GDPR and Banlists - something I hoped would be obvious since I didn't mention the forum.

    (B) I think would be hard to implement partly due to GDPR because of the reasons already listed.
  • 0ld_yell0w
    415 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Carbonic said:

    Wrong, this has been discussed before. A banlist with ingame name  would be legal.
    I asked a solicitor at the comp. I work for hence we often deal  with lot of  private and sometimes sensitive information.
    We want you to make hardware ban and ban list public.
    you dont have to warry about hackers privacy.
    You might think hackers don't deserve privacy or to have their data protected, I might not think so too, but I'm pretty sure international data protection and privacy laws like GDPR don't care what we or EA think about the issue.

  • KapitainKavern
    44 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Carbonic said:
    (B) I think would be hard to implement partly due to GDPR because of the reasons already listed.
    Carbonic, I think you need to read GDPR in detail in place of listening exclusively to Dice.

    First : GDPR applies to all companies but it is only applicable to EU residents. So if we are putting the real name of a non-eu residents in forum -> no gdpr issue.

    Second : GDPR is about PII. It means Personal Identifiable Information.
    Here is the legal definition :
    Personally identifiable information (PII) is information that, when used alone or with other relevant data, can identify an individual. PII may contain direct identifiers (e.g., passport information) that can identify a person uniquely, or quasi-identifiers (e.g., race) that can be combined with other quasi-identifiers (e.g., date of birth) to successfully recognize an individual.
    So putting a pseudo is not PII because we don't have the ability to see real name behind that pseudo. We can only see information provided freely by the person. And all forums have  sent reminder to enlisted persons to ask them to give they consent due to GDPR.
    If we put a gamertag in a sreenshot, forum viewer cannot identify the person, we don't know who is behing the GT.

    Third: EA has to sent to everybody more than one year ago a document asking explicitely to customer if they are ok that ea use their personal info. This was requested by GDPR and ea did it because they have to do it legally. They are in alignment with the law and has the right to use PII data to manage their platform. Tracking cheaters is part of the platform management.

    So really, in this case GDPR is an easy excuse to use so they can cover themselves under this law.


  • OftenShot
    93 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    perhaps with cross platform and cheatin against console (from pc) then Dice will do something...…

    One lives in hope but this is DICE we are talking about. They always try and shut the stable door after the horse has bolted!


  • Red_Label_Scotch
    1503 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Carbonic said:
    We want you to make hardware ban and ban list public.
    you dont have to warry about hackers privacy.
    You might think hackers don't deserve privacy or to have their data protected, I might not think so too, but I'm pretty sure international data protection and privacy laws like GDPR don't care what we or EA think about the issue.
    That certainly begs the question of why OTHER games will notify when the players are banned.  Do those laws somehow apply to keep EA from publishing names, but they somehow allow other companies to list the names of banned hackers?

    For example, why isn't PUBG getting in trouble for listing their banned players?
    https://www.timesnownews.com/technology-science/article/pubg-mobile-releases-a-new-list-of-banned-players-heres-why-pubg-has-given-a-10-year-ban-to-these-players/479962

    Is PUBG immune to this "International data protection" and "privacy laws" that somehow stifle EA from letting us know who is banned?


  • Red_Label_Scotch
    1503 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Jumpy-B-L said:
    I can see in the future, cheating/hacking might cause the decline of PC gaming as we know it. With the new and more powerful consoles Xbox X (better graphics, keyboard, and mouse) and others scheduled for 2020, why buy build a new $2000 PC for gaming now. It appears consoles have much less hacking going on than the PC. In the future, you can buy one of these for less than the price of the high end graphics card that does not improve the game one bit when the hackers are making the game miserable on the PC. I rather pay small subscription fee than have what we are getting now. 


    PC gaming is much, much more than multiplayer games.
    This much is true, but the cheats basically don't matter in single player games, unless I am missing something.
  • Carbonic
    1829 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    edited December 2019
    Carbonic said:
    (B) I think would be hard to implement partly due to GDPR because of the reasons already listed.
    Carbonic, I think you need to read GDPR in detail in place of listening exclusively to Dice.

    First : GDPR applies to all companies but it is only applicable to EU residents. So if we are putting the real name of a non-eu residents in forum -> no gdpr issue.

    Second : GDPR is about PII. It means Personal Identifiable Information.
    Here is the legal definition :
    Personally identifiable information (PII) is information that, when used alone or with other relevant data, can identify an individual. PII may contain direct identifiers (e.g., passport information) that can identify a person uniquely, or quasi-identifiers (e.g., race) that can be combined with other quasi-identifiers (e.g., date of birth) to successfully recognize an individual.
    So putting a pseudo is not PII because we don't have the ability to see real name behind that pseudo. We can only see information provided freely by the person. And all forums have  sent reminder to enlisted persons to ask them to give they consent due to GDPR.
    If we put a gamertag in a sreenshot, forum viewer cannot identify the person, we don't know who is behing the GT.

    Third: EA has to sent to everybody more than one year ago a document asking explicitely to customer if they are ok that ea use their personal info. This was requested by GDPR and ea did it because they have to do it legally. They are in alignment with the law and has the right to use PII data to manage their platform. Tracking cheaters is part of the platform management.

    So really, in this case GDPR is an easy excuse to use so they can cover themselves under this law.
    Just a few comments:
    • I already said that I believe public banlists could be implemented in a GDPR safe way - the whole point of mentioning GDPR was that it changes what way combatting cheaters might be the most effective when you think about how much anti-cheating measures you get for your money. I made some arguments that automatic detection and prevention might be more effective.
    • I have not been listening to DICE. Do you see them talking about GDPR in here or anywhere else? No. They also don't talk to me in private about it.
    • It doesn't matter that GDPR only applies to the users of EU residents. Similar laws in other countries are on their way and besides, it's too much work, time and money to treat data differently depending on user location - implementing changes for all users is what most international consumer companies like EA have done.
    • PII is the American term, in Europe we just call it personal information or personal data and it covers a broader range of information than PII. The US legal definition makes little sense in EU law. The EU definition includes online identifiers which would include ones EA username.

    Carbonic said:
    We want you to make hardware ban and ban list public.
    you dont have to warry about hackers privacy.
    You might think hackers don't deserve privacy or to have their data protected, I might not think so too, but I'm pretty sure international data protection and privacy laws like GDPR don't care what we or EA think about the issue.
    That certainly begs the question of why OTHER games will notify when the players are banned.  Do those laws somehow apply to keep EA from publishing names, but they somehow allow other companies to list the names of banned hackers?

    For example, why isn't PUBG getting in trouble for listing their banned players?
    https://www.timesnownews.com/technology-science/article/pubg-mobile-releases-a-new-list-of-banned-players-heres-why-pubg-has-given-a-10-year-ban-to-these-players/479962

    Is PUBG immune to this "International data protection" and "privacy laws" that somehow stifle EA from letting us know who is banned?
    You mean the list that is now removed "to better ensure our game follows rules regarding personal privacy around the world and maintains the integrity of our users' personal information" ?
    Source: http://www.pubgmobile.com/banlist/
    :D

    Post edited by Carbonic on
  • OskooI_007
    1258 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2019
    I like how PUBG breaks down the number of cheaters in each region.

    993181316880147-2.jpg
    Post edited by OskooI_007 on
  • Carbonic
    1829 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    I like how PUBG breaks down the number of cheaters in each region.

    largewhiteimage.filename
    Yeah that's pretty cool (although the giant image with huge white background and margins are a bit much :p)
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