This is why fog mechanics in bf1 are bad

Comments

  • MarxistDictator
    5234 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2019
    (Quote)
    Lol, the moment you start resorting to personal insults and low jabs you know you've lost.

    And for the record, I have spent a total of 1 hour, 16 minutes and 48 seconds out of my entire playtime in the Muromets bomber. There is literally no reason why I'd intentionally pick a flying coffin bomber when the Attack Plane and Fighter Plane exists. 

    Enjoy getting sent back to the spawn screen by a literal flying coffin.

    Right and I've had this discussion before dozens of times with CQ only players who are much better than you. Not liking something for having an extremely bad effect on the gameplay is not the same as getting killed by it, just so you're aware. It's totally possible to actually be decent enough at something to appreciate that certain things have absolutely no balance or fairness to them.

    For the record I literally just listed heavy bombers as a bullet point as to why fog is trash and doesn't change the gameplay how Disposalist claims. You coming in hot and bothered on that angry to defend the heavy bomber is infinitely more telling tbh
  • WetFishDB
    2326 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    (Quote)
    Lol, the moment you start resorting to personal insults and low jabs you know you've lost.

    And for the record, I have spent a total of 1 hour, 16 minutes and 48 seconds out of my entire playtime in the Muromets bomber. There is literally no reason why I'd intentionally pick a flying coffin bomber when the Attack Plane and Fighter Plane exists. 

    Enjoy getting sent back to the spawn screen by a literal flying coffin.

    Right and I've had this discussion before dozens of times with CQ only players who are much better than you. Not liking something for having an extremely bad effect on the gameplay is not the same as getting killed by it, just so you're aware. It's totally possible to actually be decent enough at something to appreciate that certain things have absolutely no balance or fairness to them.

    For the record I literally just listed heavy bombers as a bullet point as to why fog is trash and doesn't change the gameplay how Disposalist claims. You coming in hot and bothered on that angry to defend the heavy bomber is infinitely more telling tbh
    I agree that the heavy bomber is less affected by fog by virtue of it not needing any real accuracy due to the massive blast radius.  It just needs to head towards a flag being captured/contested by the enemy and drop its load.  Not that it’s the point of this thread as there already is one on how naff the heavy bomber is for gameplay.

    But other planes that do rely more on line-of-sight  are affected by fog/sandstorm.  I really don’t see how anyone can argue that something that reduces player visibility doesn’t introduce variety into the gameplay.  Sure, it doesn’t force anyone to play any differently - but it does mean that the effectiveness of certain tactics is changed, and that in turn does change things.  I’m not saying it is significantly different, as it really isn’t.  For example, it becomes much easier to flank a tank (or most things for that matter).  Faster planes struggle more against infantry unless they are spotted.  Arty trucks spamming from a vantage point have to speculate a little more (and are also easier to flank).
  • trip1ex
    5220 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    WetFishDB said:
    (Quote)
    Lol, the moment you start resorting to personal insults and low jabs you know you've lost.

    And for the record, I have spent a total of 1 hour, 16 minutes and 48 seconds out of my entire playtime in the Muromets bomber. There is literally no reason why I'd intentionally pick a flying coffin bomber when the Attack Plane and Fighter Plane exists. 

    Enjoy getting sent back to the spawn screen by a literal flying coffin.

    Right and I've had this discussion before dozens of times with CQ only players who are much better than you. Not liking something for having an extremely bad effect on the gameplay is not the same as getting killed by it, just so you're aware. It's totally possible to actually be decent enough at something to appreciate that certain things have absolutely no balance or fairness to them.

    For the record I literally just listed heavy bombers as a bullet point as to why fog is trash and doesn't change the gameplay how Disposalist claims. You coming in hot and bothered on that angry to defend the heavy bomber is infinitely more telling tbh
    I agree that the heavy bomber is less affected by fog by virtue of it not needing any real accuracy due to the massive blast radius.  It just needs to head towards a flag being captured/contested by the enemy and drop its load.  Not that it’s the point of this thread as there already is one on how naff the heavy bomber is for gameplay.

    But other planes that do rely more on line-of-sight  are affected by fog/sandstorm.  I really don’t see how anyone can argue that something that reduces player visibility doesn’t introduce variety into the gameplay.  Sure, it doesn’t force anyone to play any differently - but it does mean that the effectiveness of certain tactics is changed, and that in turn does change things.  I’m not saying it is significantly different, as it really isn’t.  For example, it becomes much easier to flank a tank (or most things for that matter).  Faster planes struggle more against infantry unless they are spotted.  Arty trucks spamming from a vantage point have to speculate a little more (and are also easier to flank).

     13 of the 30 maps in the game already have no planes.    So fogging over maps and making planes much less effective is not additional variety.   

    Also one fogged over map is another fogged over map.   When all you can see is ~20m in front of you and your screen is white then the experience barely changes as the name of the map changes.  The differences in terrain and cover matter much less.  The effect of fog thus is to turn every map into the same map.   This creates a huge sameness to fogged over maps.  

    So when they fog over 10 maps in a row it doesn't introduce variety to the gameplay.  It makes it a lot more monotonous.  It takes out the variety.  It takes (out) the unique differences in the terrain and layout.  It takes away certain tactics to a great degree.  YOu're left feeling like you're playing the same map over and over with even fewer tactics available.  

    The only way fog introduces variety is if it appears at a much lower frequency.  

    That's because any variety introduced by fog diminishes very quickly the greater the rate at which maps are fogged over.  

    It's no different really then say taking out medic class from a map.  That would add some variety.  Right?  But then if you do it 10 maps in a row?  Does is still add variety?  No. The variety disappears.  Now you've effectively reduced variety.     And then what if 13 of the 30 maps already had no medics on them to begin with.  And what if other maps made it very difficult for medics to operate in certain areas as it was.    Then you really see how it wouldn't add any variety at all even.  




  • trip1ex
    5220 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    @WetFishDB
     
    Remember thirteen of the thirty maps in the game already have 0 airplanes.    So fogging over map and after map and making planes much less effective is not additional variety as far as not dealing with planes  goes.  

    Also one fogged over map is another fogged over map.   When all you can see is ~20m in front of you and your screen is white then the experience barely changes as the name of the map changes.  The differences in terrain and cover matter much less.  The effect of fog thus is to turn every map into the same map.   This creates a huge sameness to fogged over maps.  

    So when BF1 fogs over 10 maps in a row it doesn't introduce variety to the gameplay.  It makes it a lot more monotonous.  It stamps out the variety.  It stamps  (out) the unique differences in the terrain and layout.  It stamps away certain tactics to a great degree.  You're left feeling like you're playing the same map over and over with even fewer tactics available.  

    The only way fog introduces variety is if it appears at a much lower frequency.  

    That's because any variety introduced by fog diminishes very quickly the greater the rate at which maps are fogged over.  

    It's no different really then say removing the medic class from a map.  That would add some variety.  Right?  But then if you do it 10 maps in a row?  Does is still add variety?  No. The variety disappears.  Now you've effectively reduced variety.     And then what if 13 of the 30 maps already had no medics on them to begin with.  And what if other maps already made it very difficult for medics to operate in certain areas as it was.    Then you really see how it doesn't add any variety at all even to take out medics.  
  • WetFishDB
    2326 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    trip1ex wrote: »
    @WetFishDB
     
    Remember thirteen of the thirty maps in the game already have 0 airplanes.    So fogging over map and after map and making planes much less effective is not additional variety as far as not dealing with planes  goes.  

    Also one fogged over map is another fogged over map.   When all you can see is ~20m in front of you and your screen is white then the experience barely changes as the name of the map changes.  The differences in terrain and cover matter much less.  The effect of fog thus is to turn every map into the same map.   This creates a huge sameness to fogged over maps.  

    So when BF1 fogs over 10 maps in a row it doesn't introduce variety to the gameplay.  It makes it a lot more monotonous.  It stamps out the variety.  It stamps  (out) the unique differences in the terrain and layout.  It stamps away certain tactics to a great degree.  You're left feeling like you're playing the same map over and over with even fewer tactics available.  

    The only way fog introduces variety is if it appears at a much lower frequency.  

    That's because any variety introduced by fog diminishes very quickly the greater the rate at which maps are fogged over.  

    It's no different really then say removing the medic class from a map.  That would add some variety.  Right?  But then if you do it 10 maps in a row?  Does is still add variety?  No. The variety disappears.  Now you've effectively reduced variety.     And then what if 13 of the 30 maps already had no medics on them to begin with.  And what if other maps already made it very difficult for medics to operate in certain areas as it was.    Then you really see how it doesn't add any variety at all even to take out medics.  

    I agree that fog on every map over and over again would mean less diversity for planes. But I’ve never had that happen. Ever. If that’s your only argument then it really doesn’t hold much water. Something like that would be a freak occurrence, not a frequent scenario (unless there’s some bug). And if someone only ever plays in planes, well, diversity isn’t really what they are after. Maybe a repeat fog bug would encourage them to try something else ;)

    And anyway, as you said - not every map has planes. And fog (or sand storm) doesn’t happen all that often in my experience - maybe something like 1 in 10 games or so. And therefore when it does come it is a break from the standard play patterns on that map. People start taking different routes that become less prone to campers etc, campy tanks/arty trucks/scouts are less of a nuisance (shame the heavy bomber isn’t).
  • trip1ex
    5220 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2019
    WetFishDB said:
    trip1ex wrote: »
    @WetFishDB
     
    Remember thirteen of the thirty maps in the game already have 0 airplanes.    So fogging over map and after map and making planes much less effective is not additional variety as far as not dealing with planes  goes.  

    Also one fogged over map is another fogged over map.   When all you can see is ~20m in front of you and your screen is white then the experience barely changes as the name of the map changes.  The differences in terrain and cover matter much less.  The effect of fog thus is to turn every map into the same map.   This creates a huge sameness to fogged over maps.  

    So when BF1 fogs over 10 maps in a row it doesn't introduce variety to the gameplay.  It makes it a lot more monotonous.  It stamps out the variety.  It stamps  (out) the unique differences in the terrain and layout.  It stamps away certain tactics to a great degree.  You're left feeling like you're playing the same map over and over with even fewer tactics available.  

    The only way fog introduces variety is if it appears at a much lower frequency.  

    That's because any variety introduced by fog diminishes very quickly the greater the rate at which maps are fogged over.  

    It's no different really then say removing the medic class from a map.  That would add some variety.  Right?  But then if you do it 10 maps in a row?  Does is still add variety?  No. The variety disappears.  Now you've effectively reduced variety.     And then what if 13 of the 30 maps already had no medics on them to begin with.  And what if other maps already made it very difficult for medics to operate in certain areas as it was.    Then you really see how it doesn't add any variety at all even to take out medics.  

    I agree that fog on every map over and over again would mean less diversity for planes. But I’ve never had that happen. Ever. If that’s your only argument then it really doesn’t hold much water. Something like that would be a freak occurrence, not a frequent scenario (unless there’s some bug). And if someone only ever plays in planes, well, diversity isn’t really what they are after. Maybe a repeat fog bug would encourage them to try something else ;)

    And anyway, as you said - not every map has planes. And fog (or sand storm) doesn’t happen all that often in my experience - maybe something like 1 in 10 games or so. And therefore when it does come it is a break from the standard play patterns on that map. People start taking different routes that become less prone to campers etc, campy tanks/arty trucks/scouts are less of a nuisance (shame the heavy bomber isn’t).
    I don't know what you're saying in the first paragraph.  Never had what happen?  You never had a ton of maps in a row fogged over that rendered  the plane action a moot pt?  You must be playing a different game if that's what you're saying.   So you make no sense to me there.  


    Fog happens way more often than 1 out of 10 rounds.  I mean I literally could have 10 rounds in a row fogged over.  It's also super annoying in the context of say playing 4 mostly infantry maps in a row and then you finally get a Rupture or something and it's fogged over.  :)  YOu've just reduced variety.  And increased monotony.   I like flying part of the time.  1/4 of the time.    I also like rear gunning once in awhile.  I like shooting at planes from the ground and keeping them down. That's variety.  Fog gets rid of that.   It gets rid of  what makes BF BF.  

    And your comment about being able to move different on maps  because of fog is moot given every fogged over map is like every other fogged over map.   They could literally just call a map Fog and have it just be all fog and that would be a map in the rotation and it would be like fogging over any other map.  (That's where my 1 out of 30 rounds of fog is ok number comes from. :)  )

    Also the game  already has maps without vehicles at all.   You have your ARgonne.  You have Ft De vaux.  You have Verdun Heights.  You have Achi Baba.   We already have those experiences where we can avoid campy vehicles.   And you can really add a few more maps to that list which have 1 tank per side and many areas where tanks can't go nevermind that when a tank is blown up, it doesn't respawn for a minute or two.   So fog isn't providing any variety that the game doesn't already provide.  

  • WetFishDB
    2326 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    trip1ex wrote: »
    (Quote)
    I don't know what you're saying in the first paragraph.  Never had what happen?  You never had a ton of maps in a row fogged over that rendered  the plane action a moot pt?  You must be playing a different game if that's what you're saying.   So you make no sense to me there.  


    Fog happens way more often than 1 out of 10 rounds.  I mean I literally could have 10 rounds in a row fogged over.  It's also super annoying in the context of say playing 4 mostly infantry maps in a row and then you finally get a Rupture or something and it's fogged over.  :)  YOu've just reduced variety.  And increased monotony.   I like flying part of the time.  1/4 of the time.    I also like rear gunning once in awhile.  I like shooting at planes from the ground and keeping them down. That's variety.  Fog gets rid of that.   It gets rid of  what makes BF BF.  

    And your comment about being able to move different on maps  because of fog is moot given every fogged over map is like every other fogged over map.   They could literally just call a map Fog and have it just be all fog and that would be a map in the rotation and it would be like fogging over any other map.  (That's where my 1 out of 30 rounds of fog is ok number comes from. :)  )

    Also the game  already has maps without vehicles at all.   You have your ARgonne.  You have Ft De vaux.  You have Verdun Heights.  You have Achi Baba.   We already have those experiences where we can avoid campy vehicles.   And you can really add a few more maps to that list which have 1 tank per side and many areas where tanks can't go nevermind that when a tank is blown up, it doesn't respawn for a minute or two.   So fog isn't providing any variety that the game doesn't already provide.  

    Yeah. I’m saying I’ve never, EVER had 10 games in a row with fog. And I’ve played thousands of Conquest rounds. I haven’t had fog in the last 3 Conquest rounds tonight, nor the last time I played either. I actually can’t remember the last time I had fog. If it was as common as you suggest I’d agree it was an issue, but it just isn’t. In my experience Fog IS rare, or at least it is on EU Conquest. What region and mode are you playing out of interest?

    What it does change is how each map plays. Giant Shadow with fog is different to Giant Shadow without fog. And because fog is rare, it introduces some welcome additional variety when playing any given map. Your logic that Fog reduces variety is just full of holes for me. Yes, it means some tactics are not as viable on a given map as they would otherwise be without fog (and others become more viable). As a result, sensible players adapt to the new conditions. The change of tactics alters how that map plays out... thus introducing variety from how a given map normally plays out. Just because the way you want to play a given map is no longer as viable doesn’t inherently mean there is less variety.

    It sounds like you are a pilot (or at least heavily invested with piloting) so I understand why you won’t like fog. It gives infantry some respite from planes and means you have to play on more level footing. But that is part of the variety that fog adds, and I for one really enjoy it.
  • MarxistDictator
    5234 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2019
    Eh the same tanks that are used to camp and farm are like the bomber way less affected by fog. Chammond searchlight spots through fog, mortar shells are just clicking dots a lot of which are from spot flares and the artillery truck with the cannon has a scope which like other scopes peers through the fog farther. Heavy bomber dropping nonsense throughout. Meanwhile the fog gameplay doesn't really change much from map to map, unless we are talking about how much the fog ruins the gameplay experience. Some maps get a light mist compared to the soupy mush on others like St. Quentin where you literally can't even be sure if your shots are heading towards the ground in an aircraft. Sure is exciting playing Argonne, Amiens, Suez and then have St. Quentin in fog. It really is exciting when the planes appear for a map and are useless unless you want to drop 60 bombs on a flag at once which is extremely balanced and skill based.

    And in operations there is definitely fog bias, like 1/3 battalions plays in fog most of the time and having it occur twice in one operation without even switching maps is not rare.
  • trip1ex
    5220 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    WetFishDB said:
    trip1ex wrote: »
    (Quote)
    I don't know what you're saying in the first paragraph.  Never had what happen?  You never had a ton of maps in a row fogged over that rendered  the plane action a moot pt?  You must be playing a different game if that's what you're saying.   So you make no sense to me there.  


    Fog happens way more often than 1 out of 10 rounds.  I mean I literally could have 10 rounds in a row fogged over.  It's also super annoying in the context of say playing 4 mostly infantry maps in a row and then you finally get a Rupture or something and it's fogged over.  :)  YOu've just reduced variety.  And increased monotony.   I like flying part of the time.  1/4 of the time.    I also like rear gunning once in awhile.  I like shooting at planes from the ground and keeping them down. That's variety.  Fog gets rid of that.   It gets rid of  what makes BF BF.  

    And your comment about being able to move different on maps  because of fog is moot given every fogged over map is like every other fogged over map.   They could literally just call a map Fog and have it just be all fog and that would be a map in the rotation and it would be like fogging over any other map.  (That's where my 1 out of 30 rounds of fog is ok number comes from. :)  )

    Also the game  already has maps without vehicles at all.   You have your ARgonne.  You have Ft De vaux.  You have Verdun Heights.  You have Achi Baba.   We already have those experiences where we can avoid campy vehicles.   And you can really add a few more maps to that list which have 1 tank per side and many areas where tanks can't go nevermind that when a tank is blown up, it doesn't respawn for a minute or two.   So fog isn't providing any variety that the game doesn't already provide.  

    Yeah. I’m saying I’ve never, EVER had 10 games in a row with fog. And I’ve played thousands of Conquest rounds. I haven’t had fog in the last 3 Conquest rounds tonight, nor the last time I played either. I actually can’t remember the last time I had fog. If it was as common as you suggest I’d agree it was an issue, but it just isn’t. In my experience Fog IS rare, or at least it is on EU Conquest. What region and mode are you playing out of interest?

    What it does change is how each map plays. Giant Shadow with fog is different to Giant Shadow without fog. And because fog is rare, it introduces some welcome additional variety when playing any given map. Your logic that Fog reduces variety is just full of holes for me. Yes, it means some tactics are not as viable on a given map as they would otherwise be without fog (and others become more viable). As a result, sensible players adapt to the new conditions. The change of tactics alters how that map plays out... thus introducing variety from how a given map normally plays out. Just because the way you want to play a given map is no longer as viable doesn’t inherently mean there is less variety.

    It sounds like you are a pilot (or at least heavily invested with piloting) so I understand why you won’t like fog. It gives infantry some respite from planes and means you have to play on more level footing. But that is part of the variety that fog adds, and I for one really enjoy it.
    Fog isn't rare like you claim though.   

    And yes it does change how any 1 map plays.

    But we're not playing any 1 map in a vacuum.  

    We have 29 other  maps that are already deliberately designed to provide different experiences from map #1.    

    Giant's Shadow in fog might be different from Giant's not in fog, but it's not different from any other fogged over map and  it doesn't provide a different experience from many of the other 29 maps without fog.  

    Thus fog introduces no variety to the game.  And it only serves to make the game experience more monotonous by killing the variety that the 30 maps already provided.











     
  • Titan_Awaken
    1231 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    trip1ex said:
    @WetFishDB
     
    Remember thirteen of the thirty maps in the game already have 0 airplanes.    So fogging over map and after map and making planes much less effective is not additional variety as far as not dealing with planes  goes.  

    Also one fogged over map is another fogged over map.   When all you can see is ~20m in front of you and your screen is white then the experience barely changes as the name of the map changes.  The differences in terrain and cover matter much less.  The effect of fog thus is to turn every map into the same map.   This creates a huge sameness to fogged over maps.  

    So when BF1 fogs over 10 maps in a row it doesn't introduce variety to the gameplay.  It makes it a lot more monotonous.  It stamps out the variety.  It stamps  (out) the unique differences in the terrain and layout.  It stamps away certain tactics to a great degree.  You're left feeling like you're playing the same map over and over with even fewer tactics available.  

    The only way fog introduces variety is if it appears at a much lower frequency.  

    That's because any variety introduced by fog diminishes very quickly the greater the rate at which maps are fogged over.  

    It's no different really then say removing the medic class from a map.  That would add some variety.  Right?  But then if you do it 10 maps in a row?  Does is still add variety?  No. The variety disappears.  Now you've effectively reduced variety.     And then what if 13 of the 30 maps already had no medics on them to begin with.  And what if other maps already made it very difficult for medics to operate in certain areas as it was.    Then you really see how it doesn't add any variety at all even to take out medics.  
    trip1ex said:
    @WetFishDB
     
    Remember thirteen of the thirty maps in the game already have 0 airplanes.    So fogging over map and after map and making planes much less effective is not additional variety as far as not dealing with planes  goes.  

    Also one fogged over map is another fogged over map.   When all you can see is ~20m in front of you and your screen is white then the experience barely changes as the name of the map changes.  The differences in terrain and cover matter much less.  The effect of fog thus is to turn every map into the same map.   This creates a huge sameness to fogged over maps.  

    So when BF1 fogs over 10 maps in a row it doesn't introduce variety to the gameplay.  It makes it a lot more monotonous.  It stamps out the variety.  It stamps  (out) the unique differences in the terrain and layout.  It stamps away certain tactics to a great degree.  You're left feeling like you're playing the same map over and over with even fewer tactics available.  

    The only way fog introduces variety is if it appears at a much lower frequency.  

    That's because any variety introduced by fog diminishes very quickly the greater the rate at which maps are fogged over.  

    It's no different really then say removing the medic class from a map.  That would add some variety.  Right?  But then if you do it 10 maps in a row?  Does is still add variety?  No. The variety disappears.  Now you've effectively reduced variety.     And then what if 13 of the 30 maps already had no medics on them to begin with.  And what if other maps already made it very difficult for medics to operate in certain areas as it was.    Then you really see how it doesn't add any variety at all even to take out medics.  
    Eh, not really. One map with fog plays fundamentally different to another map with fog because Battlefield maps don't use the linear (3) lane system that CoD maps are known for. 

    To say each map plays the same with fog is just plain wrong. Even if you restrict the game to only one single map with or without fog with the same 64 players, I can still guarantee that each match will be played differently.

    No two matches will the play out exactly the same way; it isn't possible to come up with a mathematical model predicting where all 64 players will be doing what and where at any given moment in time. It's utter chaos at any and every moment and the introduction of fog into a game adds yet another layer of chaos and unpredictability into an already chaotic and unpredictable game. 

    You probably don't like fog because it drastically reduces visibility and visual feedback, much like many others. But what if I told you that that's why fog is so brilliant? Because you see, without fog you feel like you're in control of the game - that is to say that you know where everything is, how it looks like, what it is and in what direction - but as soon as the fog rolls in you lose that sense of control and knowledge of who, what, when and how and it makes you improvise whether you like it or not.

    Without being in control, there is a sense of tension and suspense because you never know what is front of you, whether it be a tank, a squad of infantry or nothing at all. Fog keeps you constantly on edge because it strips away predictability in games and hence adds variation to the game. Where's the fun knowing where everything is all the time? Not much variety in constantly knowing where everything is if you ask me...

    But don't just take my word for it. The Silent Hill franchise famously uses fog to deliberately obscure the player's view distance and there's a constant looming shadow of suspense and anticipation as a result. If you removed the fog in Silent Hill, the atmosphere and the game as a whole wouldn't be half as effective. 

    As the cliche goes: "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome". If you're insistent on doing none of those when the fog rolls in, don't be surprised if you get picked off a player who can.
  • trip1ex
    5220 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2019
    trip1ex said:
    @WetFishDB
     
    Remember thirteen of the thirty maps in the game already have 0 airplanes.    So fogging over map and after map and making planes much less effective is not additional variety as far as not dealing with planes  goes.  

    Also one fogged over map is another fogged over map.   When all you can see is ~20m in front of you and your screen is white then the experience barely changes as the name of the map changes.  The differences in terrain and cover matter much less.  The effect of fog thus is to turn every map into the same map.   This creates a huge sameness to fogged over maps.  

    So when BF1 fogs over 10 maps in a row it doesn't introduce variety to the gameplay.  It makes it a lot more monotonous.  It stamps out the variety.  It stamps  (out) the unique differences in the terrain and layout.  It stamps away certain tactics to a great degree.  You're left feeling like you're playing the same map over and over with even fewer tactics available.  

    The only way fog introduces variety is if it appears at a much lower frequency.  

    That's because any variety introduced by fog diminishes very quickly the greater the rate at which maps are fogged over.  

    It's no different really then say removing the medic class from a map.  That would add some variety.  Right?  But then if you do it 10 maps in a row?  Does is still add variety?  No. The variety disappears.  Now you've effectively reduced variety.     And then what if 13 of the 30 maps already had no medics on them to begin with.  And what if other maps already made it very difficult for medics to operate in certain areas as it was.    Then you really see how it doesn't add any variety at all even to take out medics.  
    trip1ex said:
    @WetFishDB
     
    Remember thirteen of the thirty maps in the game already have 0 airplanes.    So fogging over map and after map and making planes much less effective is not additional variety as far as not dealing with planes  goes.  

    Also one fogged over map is another fogged over map.   When all you can see is ~20m in front of you and your screen is white then the experience barely changes as the name of the map changes.  The differences in terrain and cover matter much less.  The effect of fog thus is to turn every map into the same map.   This creates a huge sameness to fogged over maps.  

    So when BF1 fogs over 10 maps in a row it doesn't introduce variety to the gameplay.  It makes it a lot more monotonous.  It stamps out the variety.  It stamps  (out) the unique differences in the terrain and layout.  It stamps away certain tactics to a great degree.  You're left feeling like you're playing the same map over and over with even fewer tactics available.  

    The only way fog introduces variety is if it appears at a much lower frequency.  

    That's because any variety introduced by fog diminishes very quickly the greater the rate at which maps are fogged over.  

    It's no different really then say removing the medic class from a map.  That would add some variety.  Right?  But then if you do it 10 maps in a row?  Does is still add variety?  No. The variety disappears.  Now you've effectively reduced variety.     And then what if 13 of the 30 maps already had no medics on them to begin with.  And what if other maps already made it very difficult for medics to operate in certain areas as it was.    Then you really see how it doesn't add any variety at all even to take out medics.  
    Eh, not really. One map with fog plays fundamentally different to another map with fog because Battlefield maps don't use the linear (3) lane system that CoD maps are known for. 

    To say each map plays the same with fog is just plain wrong. Even if you restrict the game to only one single map with or without fog with the same 64 players, I can still guarantee that each match will be played differently.

    No two matches will the play out exactly the same way; it isn't possible to come up with a mathematical model predicting where all 64 players will be doing what and where at any given moment in time. It's utter chaos at any and every moment and the introduction of fog into a game adds yet another layer of chaos and unpredictability into an already chaotic and unpredictable game. 

    You probably don't like fog because it drastically reduces visibility and visual feedback, much like many others. But what if I told you that that's why fog is so brilliant? Because you see, without fog you feel like you're in control of the game - that is to say that you know where everything is, how it looks like, what it is and in what direction - but as soon as the fog rolls in you lose that sense of control and knowledge of who, what, when and how and it makes you improvise whether you like it or not.

    Without being in control, there is a sense of tension and suspense because you never know what is front of you, whether it be a tank, a squad of infantry or nothing at all. Fog keeps you constantly on edge because it strips away predictability in games and hence adds variation to the game. Where's the fun knowing where everything is all the time? Not much variety in constantly knowing where everything is if you ask me...

    But don't just take my word for it. The Silent Hill franchise famously uses fog to deliberately obscure the player's view distance and there's a constant looming shadow of suspense and anticipation as a result. If you removed the fog in Silent Hill, the atmosphere and the game as a whole wouldn't be half as effective. 

    As the cliche goes: "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome". If you're insistent on doing none of those when the fog rolls in, don't be surprised if you get picked off a player who can.


    The fact that the maps are more open in BF is even more of a reason why fogged over maps play the same way as each other.

    The discussion isn't about what second by second or minute by minute decisions players make on a map.   So that's neither here nor there.  

    I don't like fog because of exactly what I stated.  It takes away variety and introduces monotony.  

    The reason some of you don't get the point is because you can't see the forest for the trees.  :)  AT least that's one reason.    The other reason is some of you like that it kills the variety.   :)  YOu like that you don't have to deal with planes or tanks or snipers as much.  :)  You want all the maps to be infantry-only.  :)

    Like I said in the post above yours:  Yes fog on Giant's plays different than Giant's.  But that's not the issue.  The issue is not only does a fogged over Giant's play just like every other fogged over map but it also plays a lot like many of the other 29 maps without fog.  This introduces a monotony to the map lineup.    Remember we aren't playing Giant's in a vacuum.  WE aren't playing a sp game of Silent Hill where suddenly they can throw fog on you and change things up.  WE aren't playing a Silent HIll where the experience is ~10 hours or whatever it is and they can control the entire thing all the way through.

    No we're playing a multiplayer game over 30 maps that are already deliberately designed to provide different experiences.  As it is, if just play the maps, you're being thrown into different situations all the time.  13 of the 30 maps have no planes.  So when you switch maps, you already have to adapt to having planes or not having planes.   at least 4 of the 30 maps have no vehicles at all.  At least a few of the 30 aren't sniper friendly.  And on any given map, you are already constantly adapting to different flag zones and situations.    For example, if you are inside trying to take  on the B flag on Tsaritsyn, you probably aren't sniping.     There's lots of maps with close quarters where you probably won't be sniping.   There's maps with close quarters where tanks can't get it at very easily and are much less effective.  Nevermind that vehicles already come and go on maps, not only as they move, but as they get destroyed.  For example, on Suez, when an enemy tank gets destroyed, it's gone for a good 2 minutes at least.    Now you're playing a tank-less map.  So the need to adapt is already built into the game.  Whether it's from map to map, flag to flag or situations to situation.  

    So fog isn't doing anything more than introducing monotony to the map lineup.   




  • WetFishDB
    2326 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    trip1ex wrote: »
    (Quote)
    The fact that the maps are more open in BF is even more of a reason why fogged over maps play the same way as each other.

    The discussion isn't about what second by second or minute by minute decisions players make on a map.   So that's neither here nor there.  

    I don't like fog because of exactly what I stated.  It takes away variety and introduces monotony.  

    The reason some of you don't get the point is because you can't see the forest for the trees.  :)  AT least that's one reason.    The other reason is some of you like that it kills the variety.   :)  YOu like that you don't have to deal with planes or tanks or snipers as much.  :)  You want all the maps to be infantry-only.  :)

    Like I said in the post above yours:  Yes fog on Giant's plays different than Giant's.  But that's not the issue.  The issue is not only does a fogged over Giant's play just like every other fogged over map but it also plays a lot like many of the other 29 maps without fog.  This introduces a monotony to the map lineup.    Remember we aren't playing Giant's in a vacuum.  WE aren't playing a sp game of Silent Hill where suddenly they can throw fog on you and change things up.  WE aren't playing a Silent HIll where the experience is ~10 hours or whatever it is and they can control the entire thing all the way through.

    No we're playing a multiplayer game over 30 maps that are already deliberately designed to provide different experiences.  As it is, if just play the maps, you're being thrown into different situations all the time.  13 of the 30 maps have no planes.  So when you switch maps, you already have to adapt to having planes or not having planes.   at least 4 of the 30 maps have no vehicles at all.  At least a few of the 30 aren't sniper friendly.  And on any given map, you are already constantly adapting to different flag zones and situations.    For example, if you are inside trying to take  on the B flag on Tsaritsyn, you probably aren't sniping.     There's lots of maps with close quarters where you probably won't be sniping.   There's maps with close quarters where tanks can't get it at very easily and are much less effective.  Nevermind that vehicles already come and go on maps, not only as they move, but as they get destroyed.  For example, on Suez, when an enemy tank gets destroyed, it's gone for a good 2 minutes at least.    Now you're playing a tank-less map.  So the need to adapt is already built into the game.  Whether it's from map to map, flag to flag or situations to situation.  

    So fog isn't doing anything more than introducing monotony to the map lineup.   

    Glad you agreed that Giant with fog is different to Giants without fog. Therefore you acknowledge that it is a variation on gameplay for that map, especially as fog is rare. You’ve confirmed my argument. You have 30 maps that all play differently (by your own admission), and each could have weather conditions that further varies the game play on each of them. Ergo, more variety.

    The argument that one fog map plays the same as others is weak. The only people it really plays similarly for is pilots, as they don’t often care about the flow of the game below them anyway, and that’s what... 4/64 players on that match. And it only plays the same if they choose to just do the same thing on foggy maps. Personally I’d hope it would encourage them to maybe put some boots on the ground once in a while etc.

    Just because you like planes, doesn’t mean everyone else does. I for one, love it when fog rolls in on Albion and pilots don’t have as much free reign as they otherwise do. Makes that map much more enjoyable for almost everyone else (so long as there isn’t a muromettes scrub carpet in the server) - and therefore a different to experience to every other map/weather condition.
  • WetFishDB
    2326 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Your entire argument is I want to do X, and because I can’t do X on fog maps then it’s less variety. That’s observer bias. It’s you that’s not seeing it from the wider perspective of the match as a whole.

    It does vary the way those maps play. Yes it means players can’t continue doing what they would otherwise do on that map, at least not necessarily to the same effectiveness - which IS variety in the overall experience. It means there is an adjustment to what’s viable.

    For example, it might make closer combat on an open map more viable and ranged combat less viable. It’s a trade off. It might make piloting less problematic, meaning people can focus on ground engagements more - again, resulting in a different experience.

    I’m sorry you can’t see it. But perhaps that’s a little because turkeys don’t often see Christmas objectively either.
  • MarxistDictator
    5234 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Like a good 1/4 of Sinai is the town where shotguns and CQB gameplay are not discouraged at all.

    Forcing the same type of 'variety' isn't actual variety. The variety comes from the maps. When fog appears the variety in the gameplay disappears, because every fogged map plays the same.

    Fog was part of a weather system that was varied when there was more than just 'fog or no fog'. When it was changed to just fog they clearly upped the incidence of weather but forgot it was the only one. This is my only explanation for how it rolls in so damn often.
  • trip1ex
    5220 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    WetFishDB said:
    Your entire argument is I want to do X, and because I can’t do X on fog maps then it’s less variety. That’s observer bias. It’s you that’s not seeing it from the wider perspective of the match as a whole.

    It does vary the way those maps play. Yes it means players can’t continue doing what they would otherwise do on that map, at least not necessarily to the same effectiveness - which IS variety in the overall experience. It means there is an adjustment to what’s viable.

    For example, it might make closer combat on an open map more viable and ranged combat less viable. It’s a trade off. It might make piloting less problematic, meaning people can focus on ground engagements more - again, resulting in a different experience.

    I’m sorry you can’t see it. But perhaps that’s a little because turkeys don’t often see Christmas objectively either.
    l  It's the complete opposite.  YOU aren't seeing it from a wider perspective.  You aren't seeing the experience as a whole.  You are just looking at 1 map in a vacuum.    





  • trip1ex
    5220 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2019
    @WetFishDB

    BUT we are not  playing one map in a vacuum.   We play an entire lineup of maps.   

     One fogged map feels like another fogged map and fogged maps feel like many of non-fogged maps too.  All fog does is introduce a monotony to the map lineup.  


    Anyway I think you like fog because it IS a variety killer.    Let's call a spade a spade. :)  
    Post edited by trip1ex on
  • WetFishDB
    2326 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2019
    I think we are at the point of repeating ourselves.

    Your argument is that it reduces the viability of certain play styles and that means less variety on that map when compared to without fog as people can’t necessarily be as effective doing what they would ordinarily want to do on that map. Right? I think I understand your point. I disagree on your point and your conclusion. Fog is mostly a trade off, some things become more viable, others become less viable. It’s different, not less. In the example @HuwJarz gave, in fog a shotgun weirder could easily navigate around an entire map of Sinai in fog. That wouldn’t ordinarily be the case on that map. But someone in an attack plane might have a slightly harder time picking out targets. That’s variety for you.

    Giving a map as an example is not looking at it in isolation, as much as you would like to claim it is. Look at the whole: 30 maps, each different, and each with let’s say 2 weather conditions = 60 different environments we can play games. 60 > 30.

    Your argument that one map in fog is the same as any other doesn’t stack up as a whole. Perhaps from the perspective of someone who’s flying around, that might be more true. For the most part pilots seem to concern themselves less with how the map plays out for everyone else. And looking at how much time you like to spend in vehicles I can see why you dislike fog. I see you like Ops too, and that probable further compounds the repetitiveness given player clustering and being a generally more linear game mode. That’s the observer bias I’m referring to. In Conquest for example games play very differently in fog.

    And your argument that fog isn’t rare... I’ve been keeping track. I didn’t have fog once in 10 games of Conquest last night, nor any the previous time I played. That’s at least 13 Conquest games in a row with no fog :confused: Perhaps other modes/regions have a bug that’s making it more common for you.

    Whether people like fog or not is entirely subjective, of course. Some may love whipping out the shotgun, others may hate putting down their sniper rifle or finding it less useful with their belly in the dirt with an LMG on top of a hill overlooking a flag. Some may love that they can push a flag otherwise plagued by planes for example. That’s subjective to each person. And it’s okay you personally don’t like it. Just like I don’t like the Muromettes.

    But if you want to call it how it really is: Turkey doesn’t like Christmas.
  • trip1ex
    5220 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2019
    WetFishDB said:

    Your argument is that it reduces the viability of certain play styles and that means less variety on that map when compared to without fog as people can’t necessarily be as effective doing what they would ordinarily want to do on that map. Right?
     Nope.  That isn't my argument.    I think that's what you're arguing against though.  That's your strawman.  lol.   

    I'm saying fog makes the maps feel the same as each other.    And that is what reduces variety.  And introduces monotony ...for reasons I've already listed 6x over.  


    30 maps fogged over is much more like reducing the game to 1 environment we can play games in.  It's the opposite of what you say.  


  • WetFishDB
    2326 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2019
    trip1ex wrote: »
    (Quote)
     
    I'm saying fog makes the maps feel the same as each other.    And that is what reduces variety.  And introduces monotony ...for reasons I've already listed 6x over.  


    30 maps fogged over is much more like reducing the game to 1 environment we can play games in.  It's the opposite of what you say.  

    And that argument has been refuted repeatedly too. Fog maps don’t all play the same, they play more similar for assaults who focus on close quarters anyway, but for medics, scouts, and supports it plays more differently. Of course I’m referring to Conquest, as I’ve given specific examples throughout. Each maps is different, and the routes infantry can take when there is fog is very different, meaning pinch points aren't the same, vantage points are less useful etc. You just make sweeping statements and then walk off dropping the mic, not realising you haven’t actually provided anything to substantiate your point.

    And even so, 30 maps all without fog + 30 maps with fog all acting as 1 (which I disagree with but let’s run with it) is 31. 31 is still > 30. And given how rare fog actually is, that’s is still a little variety.
    Post edited by WetFishDB on
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