Fliegerfaust Overpowered - DICE get your balancing straight!

Comments

  • Trokey66
    8739 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    After playing one weekend CQ on Pacific maps, as a main pilot I have to change slightly my opinion about FF. While it is newby and really easy to use, this gadget works like a deterrent to cheap tactics like camping airfield by enemy planes, or abusing open areas by planes.

    In Pacific maps this gadget should be allowed, in vanilla CQ should be a pick up that can be replenished. Even though I usually hold my own in dogfight against 2 pilots, I ve seen too many times, clans stacked when an ace pilot is followed by other 2 mates sub par pilots. He is using those as a bait, camping enemy airfield day and night. Considering fixed AA's are an easy prey for any decent pilot, FF is a powerful tool to prevent that kind of cheap tactics.

    In other words a cheap gun vs cheap tactics.

    You're just a big softy at heart Babs!
  • mf_shro0m
    2246 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    (Quote)
    TheyHaveScissors Ace pilots have always been a problem even in previous games where we had lock ons, AA mines, and laser designated munitions. I think the best course of action is to accept that there will be outliers and to balance for the majority of players to be able to counter your average pilot

    This needs to be repeated.

    Dice must not balance medic around supersanitater.
    Dice must not balance recon around stodeh.
    Dice must not balance anything according to how the best with that thing do.
    Doing so will only make the game more broken
  • mf_shro0m
    2246 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    (Quote)

    I have not yet met these good operators. So far in 1vs1 the pacific AA dies to the  plane's explosive cannons. Though it might be worth use the guy in AA as a bait to FF the guy while is is damaged and on a dive for the stationary AA

    (Quote)

    I just do not agree with aces having the god given right to kill everyone without any real threats to them if there is no other ace to counterbalance in the other team.
    The planes (the fighterish ones) are the only thing in these games that can completely deny all the map to is own kind. No tanker or soldier no matter how good they are can deny the entire map to other tanks/soldiers.
    I am currently trying to find what could possibly be a solution to that without making ground to air so strong that the normal pilots are unable to play.
    .
    The OPness of the assault as a class is another sad story that everyone is well aware though.

    It’s not the god given right of aces that no one should be able to threaten them and in truth they can be threatened and destroyed by other pilots and AAs. In a better world(game) matches would be balanced so that the pilots on the two teams are a good match for each other and they would fight it out

    You can’t make it so that the best pilots can’t murk without making it so that average pilots get destroyed, or adding killstreak bonuses that nerf the player (e.g. after 5 kills your damage decreases by 25% or something)

    I think the best solution would be to introduce a team balancing system that takes into account how good the players are in vehicles so that neither side ever has unchallenged aerial dominance
  • mf_shro0m
    2246 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2019
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    (Quote)

    I have not yet met these good operators. So far in 1vs1 the pacific AA dies to the  plane's explosive cannons. Though it might be worth use the guy in AA as a bait to FF the guy while is is damaged and on a dive for the stationary AA

    (Quote)

    I just do not agree with aces having the god given right to kill everyone without any real threats to them if there is no other ace to counterbalance in the other team.
    The planes (the fighterish ones) are the only thing in these games that can completely deny all the map to is own kind. No tanker or soldier no matter how good they are can deny the entire map to other tanks/soldiers.
    I am currently trying to find what could possibly be a solution to that without making ground to air so strong that the normal pilots are unable to play.
    .
    The OPness of the assault as a class is another sad story that everyone is well aware though.

    Also to be perfectly honest some players can almost literally deny half the map to its own kind

    I’m not a god at BF but I’ve joined games late where my team was clearly getting destroyed earlier based on how many tickets the enemies have and how far they’ve gotten, ill hop in a tank, destroy like 5-10 hostile vehicles depending on the map along with however many infantry, finish at or near the top of my team and we’ll have whittled away a few hundred tickets in one sector and win the game.
    Like I said I’m not a god at BF but even I can do that
    Post edited by mf_shro0m on
  • Hawxxeye
    6704 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2019
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    (Quote)

    I have not yet met these good operators. So far in 1vs1 the pacific AA dies to the  plane's explosive cannons. Though it might be worth use the guy in AA as a bait to FF the guy while is is damaged and on a dive for the stationary AA

    (Quote)

    I just do not agree with aces having the god given right to kill everyone without any real threats to them if there is no other ace to counterbalance in the other team.
    The planes (the fighterish ones) are the only thing in these games that can completely deny all the map to is own kind. No tanker or soldier no matter how good they are can deny the entire map to other tanks/soldiers.
    I am currently trying to find what could possibly be a solution to that without making ground to air so strong that the normal pilots are unable to play.
    .
    The OPness of the assault as a class is another sad story that everyone is well aware though.

    It’s not the god given right of aces that no one should be able to threaten them and in truth they can be threatened and destroyed by other pilots and AAs. In a better world(game) matches would be balanced so that the pilots on the two teams are a good match for each other and they would fight it out

    You can’t make it so that the best pilots can’t murk without making it so that average pilots get destroyed, or adding killstreak bonuses that nerf the player (e.g. after 5 kills your damage decreases by 25% or something)

    I think the best solution would be to introduce a team balancing system that takes into account how good the players are in vehicles so that neither side ever has unchallenged aerial dominance
    I doubt there will ever be enough good match making for that to happen.
    In the past I said maybe the really good pilots should get recommended servers where other really good pilots are active.  Like "Hey guy with 50% of your kills as a pilot, here is a server where other people like you are now playing, care to challenge them?"
    .
    I think the ultimate viable solution to a lot of the plane and tank related problems is to dramatically shorten the respawn timers they have so the users feel less locked out of the game due to the action of other vehicles or infantry. Nobody lieks waiting for minutes for their next tank/plane... Hell even the wait for respawning as a soldier after being knifed is painful to me.
    .

    (Quote)
    TheyHaveScissors Ace pilots have always been a problem even in previous games where we had lock ons, AA mines, and laser designated munitions. I think the best course of action is to accept that there will be outliers and to balance for the majority of players to be able to counter your average pilot

    This needs to be repeated.

    Dice must not balance medic around supersanitater.
    Dice must not balance recon around stodeh.
    Dice must not balance anything according to how the best with that thing do.
    Doing so will only make the game more broken

    Sadly Recon (bolt actions) IS balanced around Stodeh
    On the other hand the AA before the patch 5.0 was balanced around the worst possible pilots.
  • mf_shro0m
    2246 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    On the topic of the FF I think that they should decrease its max damage whilst leaving its min damage and velocity unchanged.

    People have mainly been getting annoyed by the FF because of how they get OHK by it, similarly to how tankers are pissed about how assaults can delete them in 5 seconds flat. If we reduced the FF’s max damage then there’d be fewer OHKs and your team would need to work together a bit more to take down hostile pilots. It would still be a threat and pilots will still be wary of doing low dives which makes bombing accurately more difficult

    I believe that in addition to this Dice needs to add a team balancing system that takes the players’ proficiency with planes and tanks into account but the above would also benefit the game
  • Hawxxeye
    6704 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    On the topic of the FF I think that they should decrease its max damage whilst leaving its min damage and velocity unchanged.

    People have mainly been getting annoyed by the FF because of how they get OHK by it, similarly to how tankers are pissed about how assaults can delete them in 5 seconds flat. If we reduced the FF’s max damage then there’d be fewer OHKs and your team would need to work together a bit more to take down hostile pilots. It would still be a threat and pilots will still be wary of doing low dives which makes bombing accurately more difficult

    I believe that in addition to this Dice needs to add a team balancing system that takes the players’ proficiency with planes and tanks into account but the above would also benefit the game
    A few days earlier I would be agreeing but after going 39-0 yesterday firebombing with low dives (coming from the rear of the enemy forces so they do not see me until I am speeding away) I am now questioning which change would make it less cheesy without compromising its ability to defend objectives.
  • Rusty5p00n
    21 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    On the topic of the FF I think that they should decrease its max damage whilst leaving its min damage and velocity unchanged.

    People have mainly been getting annoyed by the FF because of how they get OHK by it, similarly to how tankers are pissed about how assaults can delete them in 5 seconds flat. If we reduced the FF’s max damage then there’d be fewer OHKs and your team would need to work together a bit more to take down hostile pilots. It would still be a threat and pilots will still be wary of doing low dives which makes bombing accurately more difficult

    I believe that in addition to this Dice needs to add a team balancing system that takes the players’ proficiency with planes and tanks into account but the above would also benefit the game
    No the FF damage is fine, the problem I feel is that planes respawn too quickly when you down one, and that you are forced to switch to Assault and spend too much time focused on shooting down planes instead of attacking or defending.

    Vehicles should be precious, but limited, you want to keep it up as long as possible otherwise you need to wait some time till you can spawn a new vehicle. 

    Dice should introduce a Plane only gamemode (if there is not one already) if people only want to fly.
  • Rumboz
    8 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Coming from BF3 to this is a shocker.

    If I compare it to the bf3 equivalent, the igla. There is a a lock on period, which you can interrupt with ecm(or whatever its called), a missile that can be dodged with flares, and even then you wont die from one hit. There is no chance for a second launch. And a pilot would or kill the guy or avoid the area.
    Bf5 is just booom done.

    In bf3 I would get maybe 25-1 with most kills being tanks.

    I just played a round of breakthrough iwo as ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
    With the plane 103-12 ...

    Planes are to powerful, everything is to powerful. I am generally a careful flyer and would pick high value targets. Now I unload everything that has fire in the name and pray.
    A good firebomb in a cave entrance can give you 10 kills. 
    Just tone it down a bit.
    A zero and a corsair are in a dogfight, who wins?
    The assault.
  • Man_ILoveFishing
    173 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    On the topic of the FF I think that they should decrease its max damage whilst leaving its min damage and velocity unchanged.

    People have mainly been getting annoyed by the FF because of how they get OHK by it, similarly to how tankers are pissed about how assaults can delete them in 5 seconds flat. If we reduced the FF’s max damage then there’d be fewer OHKs and your team would need to work together a bit more to take down hostile pilots. It would still be a threat and pilots will still be wary of doing low dives which makes bombing accurately more difficult

    I believe that in addition to this Dice needs to add a team balancing system that takes the players’ proficiency with planes and tanks into account but the above would also benefit the game
    No the FF damage is fine, the problem I feel is that planes respawn too quickly when you down one, and that you are forced to switch to Assault and spend too much time focused on shooting down planes instead of attacking or defending.

    Vehicles should be precious, but limited, you want to keep it up as long as possible otherwise you need to wait some time till you can spawn a new vehicle. 

    Dice should introduce a Plane only gamemode (if there is not one already) if people only want to fly.
    Too long? It totally depends of ur team. 1 Plane takes about 2-3 mins to spawn, what i mean is, the usage of planes (popularity). If no1 plays on them, then you might get instantly new plane after death. Sometimes i wait for the plane about 100 tickets, mmm that wait time, feels good.
  • mf_shro0m
    2246 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2019
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    Sadly Recon (bolt actions) IS balanced around Stodeh

    Which is why the class balance is broken 😄
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    on the other hand the AA before the patch 5.0 was balanced around the worst possible pilots. I doubt there will ever be enough good match making for that to happen.
    In the past I said maybe the really good pilots should get recommended servers where other really good pilots are active.  Like "Hey guy with 50% of your kills as a pilot, here is a server where other people like you are now playing, care to challenge them?"
    .
    I think the ultimate viable solution to a lot of the plane and tank related problems is to dramatically shorten the respawn timers they have so the users feel less locked out of the game due to the action of other vehicles or infantry. Nobody lieks waiting for minutes for their next tank/plane... Hell even the wait for respawning as a soldier after being knifed is painful to me.

    I really wouldn’t be against them introducing ranked playlists but for some reason I doubt that PC dice will do that

    Ok sure I wouldn’t put my money on a perfect team balancing system being added either but having a team balancing system can’t possibly make things worse lol. Even if it’s not perfect, so long as it can recognise when there are two pro pilots in the lobby and be smart enough to put them on opposing teams that’d be an improvement

    I know what you’re getting at and sometimes the wait time for a plane isn’t that bad relatively and will be less than a minute but sometimes when the three selfish ***** in your team’s planes just won’t die 🤬😅 you need to wait for ages.
    If planes always flipped quickly then reducing the respawn delay or just straight up getting rid of it could reduce average wait times by a decent amount but I think that on average the <30seconds that’d save would only effectively reduce average wait times for planes by less than 20%. I mean it’d be some consolation but you’d still often need to wait for ages. Additionally if there were more planes on average then more people would carry FFs and without a nerf that’d just reduce the average life expectancy of pilots and lead to more frustration
  • mf_shro0m
    2246 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    (Quote)
    A few days earlier I would be agreeing but after going 39-0 yesterday firebombing with low dives (coming from the rear of the enemy forces so they do not see me until I am speeding away) I am now questioning which change would make it less cheesy without compromising its ability to defend objectives.

    I do that too and fly over with flares before bombing on the return leg 🤫😄

    If a tank went 39-0 because they kept flanking the enemy who never wised up would you say that the tank:infantry balance was perfectly fine?

    In both cases the problem is with the players being stupid. Even if they made each FF rocket do 1000 damage, if the players on the other team are gonna be that dumb you’ll still get pilots and tankers going 39-0
  • SirBobdk
    4685 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member

      you’ll still get pilots and tankers going 39-0
    Its 10 times easier to get 50-0 in a tank on the pacific maps. Every one can do that. Only very few can do the same in a plane and the number of planes destroyed are way higher than the number of tanks destroyed. It makes me wonder.
  • mf_shro0m
    2246 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Rusty5p00n wrote: »
    (Quote)
    No the FF damage is fine, the problem I feel is that planes respawn too quickly when you down one, and that you are forced to switch to Assault and spend too much time focused on shooting down planes instead of attacking or defending.

    Vehicles should be precious, but limited, you want to keep it up as long as possible otherwise you need to wait some time till you can spawn a new vehicle. 

    Dice should introduce a Plane only gamemode (if there is not one already) if people only want to fly.

    If you increase the average wait time for planes you’ll just make it so that more of the noobie pilots and the casual pilots just won’t bother waiting and a larger proportion of the planes in the sky will be piloted by experienced pilots = more suffering for infantry

    Also vehicle scarcity leads to campy playstyles because players will be so scared of losing their vehicle. We see this big time with tanks and a lot of tank campers say that a large part of why they camp is that they don’t want to risk losing their tank for good

    Tbh it’s blatant that you don’t use vehicles much because there are almost always people waiting around to use vehicles. Vehicles already are scarce commodities that people wait ages for
  • mf_shro0m
    2246 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    SirBobdk wrote: »
    (Quote)
    Its 10 times easier to get 50-0 in a tank on the pacific maps. Every one can do that. Only very few can do the same in a plane and the number of planes destroyed are way higher than the number of tanks destroyed. It makes me wonder.

    I think you’re right and they’re definitely related. One of the roles of aircraft is to take out tanks and fortifications including stationary cannons. As a pilot trying to take out a tank you pretty much need to get direct hit(s) with the big bomb and the two medium bombs and with the default bombs you need to land both on the tank which is made even more difficult because the bombs are mounted on opposite wings.
    As you don’t have any bombing sights whatsoever you need to get close to reliably land those hits and even if they got close rookie pilots will miss more often than not. With the FF and AAs as they are dive bombing is dangerous and so most pilots won’t bother when they could just go for infantry, most of whom are assaults

    If most pilots aren’t gonna bother to try to take out tanks and a greater number of assaults are dying than would otherwise be the case and fewer assaults are carrying AT weapons then not only has the FF diverted the bulk of one of the tanks’ main predators away, but it’s also reduced the number of assaults who could threaten tanks, i.e. tanks’ main predator
  • mf_shro0m
    2246 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2019
    Abcde
    Post edited by mf_shro0m on
  • SirBobdk
    4685 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member

    If most pilots aren’t gonna bother to try to take out tanks and a greater number of assaults are dying than would otherwise be the case and fewer assaults are carrying AT weapons then not only has the FF diverted the bulk of one of the tanks’ main predators away, but it’s also reduced the number of assaults who could threaten tanks, i.e. tanks’ main predator
    Imo they should nerf the incindary bombs and keep the FF and 20 mm guns, but buff the rockets against tanks. The game would be more balances if more pilots would use the fighter variant with rockets.
  • Hawxxeye
    6704 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    (Quote)
    A few days earlier I would be agreeing but after going 39-0 yesterday firebombing with low dives (coming from the rear of the enemy forces so they do not see me until I am speeding away) I am now questioning which change would make it less cheesy without compromising its ability to defend objectives.

    I do that too and fly over with flares before bombing on the return leg 🤫😄

    If a tank went 39-0 because they kept flanking the enemy who never wised up would you say that the tank:infantry balance was perfectly fine?

    In both cases the problem is with the players being stupid. Even if they made each FF rocket do 1000 damage, if the players on the other team are gonna be that dumb you’ll still get pilots and tankers going 39-0
    Yes because the risk the tank takes to do flaking attacks is larger by several orders of magnitude. It is very likely for people respawning to literally bump to it from behind and make his engine go boom
  • mf_shro0m
    2246 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2019
    SirBobdk wrote: »
    (Quote)
    Imo they should nerf the incindary bombs and keep the FF and 20 mm guns, but buff the rockets against tanks. The game would be more balances if more pilots would use the fighter variant with rockets.

    I‘d be ok with the incendiaries doing a little less damage but just buffing the rockets’ AT capabilities won’t significantly increase the number of players going for the fighters. I’ve spent a fair bit of time levelling up my fighters recently and ime due to the not so great accuracy of the rockets and their relatively slow velocity when you’re going for tanks you need to get pretty close and going in head first which puts you well within range of FFs. The 2 medium bombs the fighter bomber can equip aren’t that much worse against infantry than the fire bombs and don’t require that you get as close as the rockets do and so I think it’s likely that nerfing the fire bombs will primarily just lead to more players going for HE 20mm cannons with 2 medium bombs

    I think the main things discouraging people from picking fighters is that dogfighting just isn’t that enticing rn, at least not until your plane’s at level 6 because the pilots with level 6 planes can out turn you. Aside from that some pilots (I’m guilty too) will just lead you within range your their friendly AAs and FFs and it’s annoying af when you’re close to shooting him down only for some ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ with a FF or in an AA gun to blow you up or damage you too heavily for you to continue.
    Tbh at this point I get a lot more satisfaction from killing noobs in AAs and douches with FFs than I do from downing planes

    Most pilots just won’t bother with tanks until the AA threat gets nerfed, namely the FF
  • mf_shro0m
    2246 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    (Quote)
    Yes because the risk the tank takes to do flaking attacks is larger by several orders of magnitude. It is very likely for people respawning to literally bump to it from behind and make his engine go boom

    Sure that’s a risk but all it’d take to take your plane down would be 2 guys with FFs or 1 FF and 1 AA or 1 plane.

    It’s not that different. All it’d have taken is a bit of intelligence and some patience
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