5.2 TTK change [Megathread]

Comments

  • VincentNZ
    3885 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Trokey66 said:
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    (Quote)
    BF4 CTE also brought in a major gun adjust too.  

    The end result was TTKs like BFV’s and everyone loves BF4

    On paper only, 'spread mechanics' including suppression, were a lot stronger in BF4.

    To deny BFV's gunplay is NOT a contributing factor for players leaving is naive at best, ignorant at worse.
    You mean the poor player retention is caused by gunplay, the thing that many people liked and is well-received, and has little to do with, say, marketing, communication Dev side, delayed and unfinished content (to this day), patches not improving the gameplay, and a perceived content drought (8 weeks ToW with just cosmetics and knifes)? That is a pretty steep claim, mate.
  • mf_shro0m
    2348 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2019
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    (Quote)
    BF4 CTE also brought in a major gun adjust too.  

    The end result was TTKs like BFV’s and everyone loves BF4

    On paper only, 'spread mechanics' including suppression, were a lot stronger in BF4.

    To deny BFV's gunplay is NOT a contributing factor for players leaving is naive at best, ignorant at worse.

    I never said that gunplay isn’t a factor, I said it’s one of many

    Suppression isn’t in BFV and I think the suppression in BFV needs to be buffed halfway to what BF4’s suppression was like

    BF4’s spread has been replaced by an additional factor in recoil which can be controlled to a greater extent with skill than spread can. I don’t think that’s a bad thing and overall there’s actually more recoil in BFV than in any other BF

    Effective TTKs in BF4 were at least as fast but thanks to the netcode issues BFV’s feels faster at times. That is however not by design is due to a problem with the netcode. If we want to solve the TTD issues we should evidently ask Dice to spend their time fixing the netcode. Seeing as BF4 is seen by most as being the GOAT BF and BF1’s TTK2 increased the number of players, it’s pretty clear that BF4 and BFI TTK2-sequel TTKs are what Dice should be aiming for.
    Until they fix the netcode we won’t actually be getting a feel of the game as it’s meant to be

    The biggest problems with BFV’s actual gunplay are the remaining imbalances. ARs and SMGs aren’t much better than SARs at short-medium range and that shouldn’t be the case. LMGs are inferior to SARs at medium range which shouldn’t be the case either. 99.9% of BA users can’t use BAs which were staples in WWII at less than 100m and ptfo with them because the BAs have been nerfed to hell. SLRs are just SARs with more recoil, scope flint and damage drop.
    If these and the netcode were fixed and map design improved consistently the game would feel so much better
  • DingoKillr
    4352 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    PeteDEN72 said:
    PeteDEN72 said:
    With the new spotting system (notifications), the new players will be easier to spot, right ? Do you think that will be fun for the new players?
    Also wanting to be the sneaky/ninja type, hiding in bushes, will be a thing of the past. That is a real shame. I see that DICE wants to making it easier to see people. But in my opinion, this is not the way to do it!
    Come on DICE ... don't do this !!!
    I fear you will be pushing core players like myself and others, away for good !!!
    It is sad, as the latest Pacific update has been really fun so far.
    Spotting notification tells you been spotted nothing else it does not make new players easier to spot.
    The new passive icon needs you to be looked at directly, less than 15m away and have nothing obstructing the view.  If you can't sneak around with the new setting then it a you issue.
    So if you are hiding in a bush, and somebody zigzags their crosshair over the bush (within 15 m), to my understanding you will show up ?! right ?
    No, you wan't. I don't know how much of the body needs to be visible but Pat did seem say the whole body.
  • spartanx169x
    876 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    menaceuk said:
    Anybody complaining about this change is simply ignoring the truth. The truth being this game has been a disaster from its very inception. It has been a complete failure in terms of sales. That is just simple numbers. You(anybody reading this) may well love the game in its current form. But overall it has not been well received. To think otherwise is ignoring the sales numbers. It’s well documented that the players that did try the game we’re quitting for good shortly after playing. The server count has tracked almost identically that BFHL. BFHL had an excuse. It was fresh on the heels of the BF4 launch disaster. V had no such excuse. These changes are small if you are as good as you think you are, it will not impact you. If it does you were not as good as you thought you were to begin with. The changes are small in reality. It should allow for more movement around the map and better close quarters combat. Better being that there will actually be gunfights and not camping slaughters. But I will also say I think it’s too little too late to bring players back with this modest change.
    I think you are ignoring alot. 

    If you think the TTK is what drove players away then lol. The instant kill issue., the massive amount of game impacting bugs, a WW2 setting very few know, a non-Battlefield map selection, the MMG meta, etc.

    Sim'le fact iss that BF5 isn'r t a BF game and has been in a constant substandard state for a year. That is why the sales and playerbase are poor. Lets not even get into the terrible marketing and poor PR coming from dice ptre-launch.

    Lets forget all that and just blame the TTK.... 
    A couple of  things.

    1. I covered all of your points in a single sentence- " The truth being this game has been a disaster from its very inception."  I just didn't feel the need to list them all since they are well documented. 

    2. I never once blamed the poor sales solely on TTK. 

    With this patch, I do think is an  attempt to make the game less frustrating for the larger playerbase(NOT most of the posters on this forum) , which at least at first glance a step in  the right direction, albeit too little to late for said larger population. 
  • THERAMPAGE_ci0h
    261 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    @mf_shro0m Tweaking TTK is a first step to fixing TTD issue, at the moment 30hz consoles servers can't handle the fast TTK ( It send you 2 hit received in one refresh ) ; add attrition, HS damage multiplayer and lag compensation to this and you become to experience instadeath / death at cover.
    The game on console isn't running at 50 fps so 60hz servers on console is a non sense right now ... except if they want to make a "burning man" bonfire with their money ...
  • CHAMMOND1992
    1401 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Can any of the arm chair network engineers explain why the TTD issues didn't exist in BF3 or BF4 on consoles? Or why people on PC were experiencing TTD bugs playing at 100+ FPS on 60Hz servers?
  • mf_shro0m
    2348 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    @****_shro0m Tweaking TTK is a first step to fixing TTD issue, at the moment 30hz consoles servers can't handle the fast TTK ( It send you 2 hit received in one refresh ) ; add attrition, HS damage multiplayer and lag compensation to this and you become to experience instadeath / death at cover.
    The game on console isn't running at 50 fps so 60hz servers on console is a non sense right now ... except if they want to make a "burning man" bonfire with their money ...

    And yet TTD was fine in BF4 and BFI. I’ve been instakilled more times by stens than I have by hellriegels

    BFI, BF4, BF3, BC2 and BC are testament to the fact that if the netcode is sound then these kinds of TTKs work great on consoles
  • Trokey66
    9142 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2019
    VincentNZ wrote: »
    (Quote)
    You mean the poor player retention is caused by gunplay, the thing that many people liked and is well-received, and has little to do with, say, marketing, communication Dev side, delayed and unfinished content (to this day), patches not improving the gameplay, and a perceived content drought (8 weeks ToW with just cosmetics and knifes)? That is a pretty steep claim, mate.

    Do you know what a 'contributing factor' is?


    @mf_shro0m only the first part was directed specifically at you. The 'spread mechanics' via recoil in BFV are a lot more forgiving than those of BF4 meaning that actual TTK in BFV is often closer to theoretical TTK in my opinion.

    The second part of my post was to the thread in general.

    EDIT: It would appear that em ef is filtered, oh well......
  • VincentNZ
    3885 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Can any of the arm chair network engineers explain why the TTD issues didn't exist in BF3 or BF4 on consoles? Or why people on PC were experiencing TTD bugs playing at 100+ FPS on 60Hz servers?
    Well they did. The netcode term was coined for BF4 and created a mass hysteria that still triggers people to this day. And the more people read about and see something odd in their game they look towards TTD/netcode, which is easier to blame and explain than that they have been shot by two guys at the same time.
    Also BF3 was 24 players only, BF4 had a large 32p community and with every player more naturally the interaction between clients increase and the chances for people with poor or very poor connections connect to your servers increases, that can impact your game.
    Plus of course having a game like BFV that does not run well on many pieces of hardware out there with tons of different overlays causing stutters etc. is prone to show hiccups.
  • mf_shro0m
    2348 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    (Quote)
    A couple of  things.

    1. I covered all of your points in a single sentence- " The truth being this game has been a disaster from its very inception."  I just didn't feel the need to list them all since they are well documented. 

    2. I never once blamed the poor sales solely on TTK. 

    With this patch, I do think is an  attempt to make the game less frustrating for the larger playerbase(NOT most of the posters on this forum) , which at least at first glance a step in  the right direction, albeit too little to late for said larger population. 

    There’s no reason to believe that this forum’s opinion is vastly different to that of the whole playerbase.
    This forum and Reddit voted more than 2:1 in favour of TTK1 over TTK2. With some sample sizes of over 5000 people the samples weren’t small. To suggest that this forum and Reddit have such vastly different opinions to the whole player base without any concrete reason to think so is ridiculous
  • mf_shro0m
    2348 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    VincentNZ wrote: »
    (Quote)
    You mean the poor player retention is caused by gunplay, the thing that many people liked and is well-received, and has little to do with, say, marketing, communication Dev side, delayed and unfinished content (to this day), patches not improving the gameplay, and a perceived content drought (8 weeks ToW with just cosmetics and knifes)? That is a pretty steep claim, mate.

    Do you know what a 'contributing factor' is?


    @****_shro0m only the first part was directed specifically at you. The 'spread mechanics' via recoil in BFV are a lot more forgiving than those of BF4 meaning that actual TTK in BFV is often closer to theoretical TTK in my opinion.

    The second part of my post was to the thread in general.

    EDIT: It would appear that em ef is filtered, oh well......

    Oh right

    At longer distances it does but at closer ranges where horizontal recoil/spread doesn’t matter as much spread has less of my impact on TTK values on average.
    Ime almost all the ARs and LMGs in BF4 just delete people at close range and make people vanish significantly faster than BFV’s do

    Yeh I know, the censorship on this forum’s pretty insane haha
  • menaceuk
    54 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Can any of the arm chair network engineers explain why the TTD issues didn't exist in BF3 or BF4 on consoles? Or why people on PC were experiencing TTD bugs playing at 100+ FPS on 60Hz servers?
    Because none of that is relevant. They have a packet routing issue.  
  • menaceuk
    54 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    menaceuk said:
    Anybody complaining about this change is simply ignoring the truth. The truth being this game has been a disaster from its very inception. It has been a complete failure in terms of sales. That is just simple numbers. You(anybody reading this) may well love the game in its current form. But overall it has not been well received. To think otherwise is ignoring the sales numbers. It’s well documented that the players that did try the game we’re quitting for good shortly after playing. The server count has tracked almost identically that BFHL. BFHL had an excuse. It was fresh on the heels of the BF4 launch disaster. V had no such excuse. These changes are small if you are as good as you think you are, it will not impact you. If it does you were not as good as you thought you were to begin with. The changes are small in reality. It should allow for more movement around the map and better close quarters combat. Better being that there will actually be gunfights and not camping slaughters. But I will also say I think it’s too little too late to bring players back with this modest change.
    I think you are ignoring alot. 

    If you think the TTK is what drove players away then lol. The instant kill issue., the massive amount of game impacting bugs, a WW2 setting very few know, a non-Battlefield map selection, the MMG meta, etc.

    Sim'le fact iss that BF5 isn'r t a BF game and has been in a constant substandard state for a year. That is why the sales and playerbase are poor. Lets not even get into the terrible marketing and poor PR coming from dice ptre-launch.

    Lets forget all that and just blame the TTK.... 
    A couple of  things.

    1. I covered all of your points in a single sentence- " The truth being this game has been a disaster from its very inception."  I just didn't feel the need to list them all since they are well documented. 

    2. I never once blamed the poor sales solely on TTK. 

    With this patch, I do think is an  attempt to make the game less frustrating for the larger playerbase(NOT most of the posters on this forum) , which at least at first glance a step in  the right direction, albeit too little to late for said larger population. 
    It was actually sarcasm aimed at Dice. 

    Thought that was obvious considering your 2nd point.
  • CnConrad
    1195 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    (Quote)
    The automatico doesn't drop off to 50BTK. It drops off to 13.5 damage or 8BTK

    Exactly, so it was be on par with the m1a1 in BF5 will be. A 900rpm gun from bf1 which had a "slower" ttk will now match the Bullets needed to kill of an automatic in bf5.


    The only saving grace is that this update is so terribly done there is no way it sticks around more than a few weeks.

    Sadly lots of people will have moved on by then.
  • MusicienElegant
    232 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Texator wrote: »
    If i understood right the changes are ment to make players play closer to objectives.If so then this changes are beyond stupid.The guys who are prone with a MMG somewhere in the bushes are not on the server to play the objective, they like to farm kills.What will they do after the changes to keep their playstyle. They will be prone in the bushes with a sniper rifle. sniper rifles are even buffed with this changes because the options to fight back are nerfed.This planned changes will change nothing when it comes to play the objective all it changes is the number of active players because those who like the weapons now will maybe take a break or leave BF for good.

    The weapon changes aren't to get people to play objectives, it's to make weapons like the EMP less obsolete.
  • mf_shro0m
    2348 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Texator wrote: »
    If i understood right the changes are ment to make players play closer to objectives.If so then this changes are beyond stupid.The guys who are prone with a MMG somewhere in the bushes are not on the server to play the objective, they like to farm kills.What will they do after the changes to keep their playstyle. They will be prone in the bushes with a sniper rifle. sniper rifles are even buffed with this changes because the options to fight back are nerfed.This planned changes will change nothing when it comes to play the objective all it changes is the number of active players because those who like the weapons now will maybe take a break or leave BF for good.

    The weapon changes aren't to get people to play objectives, it's to make weapons like the EMP less obsolete.

    Here’s a better idea, extend the EMP and other low RoF SMGs’ 4HK range to 20m. There, done
  • mf_shro0m
    2348 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Can any of the arm chair network engineers explain why the TTD issues didn't exist in BF3 or BF4 on consoles? Or why people on PC were experiencing TTD bugs playing at 100+ FPS on 60Hz servers?

    I can’t remember who I saw explain it, might’ve been @The_BERG_366
  • MusicienElegant
    232 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Hello, after reconsideration of the data - or lack thereof - and the facts, I am looking forward to 5.2. Why? DICE aren't directly changing the TTK. They gave us a few graphs from the most popular weapons that make the TTK look longer. For all we know about these changes, the graphs could match other weapons in the game now. If that is the case, the TTK isn't changing, those weapons are just getting nerfed.

    We don't know what less used weapons will become. The TTK for those weapons might be getting shorter, and because we lack that data, I can't conclude that the TTK is getting longer across the board.

    There is an issue with the less used weapons. Take the Thompson vs the EMP for example. The Thompson has a fast RoF, high magazine, and great damage model over range. This makes the weapon useful in close quarters and mid-range. The EMP has a lower damage model, a slower RoF, and a smaller magazine. This makes the weapon obsolete in close quarters because it just isn't useful there. The lower recoil is supposed to make it useful at mid-range, but the Thompson can still trump it due to its overall better balanced stats.

    This issue is what 5.2 is attempting to tackle. Weapons like the EMP and MP40 should be more useful at the ranges they're supposed to be good at, instead of getting trumped by the Thompson.

    This isn't like last December where the TTK is getting longer across the board. The announcement admitted to needing to balance each weapon one by one. This means that the TTK could be getting shorter or longer, depending upon the weapon. Yet we lack the proper data to conclude that the TTK is changing.

    And, balance changes aside, we're getting Community Games and Wake Island. So I am looking forward to 5.2. Please stop pressuring DICE to not change the TTK. We barely even have the full picture as to what they're doing.

    Thanks for the updates!
  • 82_abc_991540
    30 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    I want a refund dice. Many claim these changes are because new players want refunds after they die LOL. So here is a veteran player requesting a refund for dying too slow. 
  • MusicienElegant
    232 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    I want a refund dice. Many claim these changes are because new players want refunds after they die LOL. So here is a veteran player requesting a refund for dying too slow. 

    But we don't have enough data to conclude that this is what's happening.
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