If Dice wants their next game to be successful they must listen to hardcore players

Comments

  • Forkbeard84
    1857 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    NLBartmaN wrote: »
    (Quote)
    To me as "new" BF player on console (started at BF1 and so comparing to BF1):

    3D spotting is limited by how many ammo a gadget from a certain class has and IF those players even spot, just point and cllick (like in BF1) is not there.
    Attrition is a huge thing regarding health.
    Animations (for me has nothing to do with Hardcore, they are just annoying and far too long and kill the fun)
    It is FASTER ttk, because of the TTD bug, feels VERY hardcore.
    Visual indicators (I assume you mean the GUI, hit indicator, messages, etc?) are not available in hardcore indeed, but I do see the poor visibility as hardcore lite ...
    There is no FULL helath regen, just partly, so hardcore lite for me.

    Add to my list: insane accurate easy to control recoil weapons even at mid range: hardcore lite

    Yeah for me BF V feels, compared to BF1, like hardcore lite, and I DON'T like it and I guess with me lots of other players that started with BF1 don't like it ...

    I agree. Well said.
  • ninjapenquinuk
    2247 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    There are few true hardcore elements in BFV. They have rolled back some of the hand holding mechanics and the TTK coupled with poor netcode means a fair few unintentional 1 frame deaths, but that's about it. The attrition effect is over played by those needing an excuse as to why they die too much. Even past hard Core modes in bf games were hardly hardcore in comparison to other, proper hardcore fps shooters on the PC.
  • DigitalHype
    833 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member

    Why are you all so insistent of giving this game a label other than a team based shooter like previous games?

    What is hardcore or hardcore lite about this game compared to other titles in this franchise?

    I'm not understanding this argument because there were no features removed.

    You still have 3d spotting it was just moved to a different gadget/specialization and can be abused easily.
    Attrition? Not a thing
    Added animations......dont tell me thats hardcore either.
    Slower ttk? Thats not something from hardcore mode.
    Visual indicators everywhere. Thats not in hardcore mode(technically)
    Automatic health regen. Not in hardcore
    Should I go on?

    So again what is "hardcore lite" compared to other "recent" battlefields


    The conversation about what gerne battlefield is.......its just a team based shooter nothing more nothing less.



    I'm not one for labeling it either. But, I think the need of classifying it differently comes mostly from these differences:
    • Reduced prevalence of 3d spotting. Weapon firing and sprinting would previously put you on the minimap. All classes had the ability to 3d spot with a single button press.
    • Lack of 100% time-based health restoration without a resource consumption.
    • Ammo attrition (albeit less of a factor than it was at release)
    • Shorter TTK/TTD. Trend toward the shorter TTK/TTD of earlier HC-mode which resulted from a server configurable Bullet DMG% and max health%.
    Not making any judgements on those points. Just noting they are departures from behaviors in earlier iterations of the franchise.



  • The_BERG_366
    2781 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Loqtrall wrote: »
    (Quote)
    It is hardcore lite in the perception of a lot of people and thats all that counts to be honest. Most players that still play these games never played pre-frostbite bf games (including myself). 
    After all "Battlefield" is nothing but a name. You decide what can be called "hardcore lite" based on everything (so to say) that has ever had that same name (BF), which is ridiculous. Such game series can redefine themselves in a few years and so did bf. What used to be before that isn't important anymore, cause thats simply not what the franchise is anymore. All that matters is how the franchise is seen today and if it takes an approach that is radically different to the current perception of it then its perfectly fine for people to call that out. For example by calling it "hardcore-lite" in this case. Whether or not there was some game some time ago which had a vanilla mode that was way more hardcore than bfv is not relevant to that.
    Or do you think its illegitimate to call RB6 siege a rather strategic game just because the older rb6 titles (pre vegas) were ways more strategic?

    Well you can feel that's all that counts, but feelings don't dictate or nullify reality and true history. Other BF games dont magically fade from existence and being compared to current BF games merely because there are people who didn't start playing until recently.

    People only playing since BF3 doesn't make BF5 similar to legitimate hardcore shooters. And no, I was no solely comparing to older BF titles. I compared to actual hardcore shooters and milsims, I compared to the vast majority of other shooter franchises out there. I even compared to hardcore mode in those few specific BF games.

    What used to be before BF3 is, indeed important - because it makes up the bulk of the entire franchise, and we're discussing how BF5 compares to other BF games, and other games that may or may not be designed to be Hardcore, intentionally. What you're doing is essentially insisting its ridiculous to compare BF5 to anything beyond BF3 because it's what random people expect out of a BF title after it being the first title they ever experienced. That's asinine. Personal experience doesn't dictate what these games were or are - what those games actually were/are dictates what those games were/are. More players having started playing BF games during BF3 or BF4 doesn't suddenly nullify the fact that they were huge departures from the several BF games prior to that point in the franchise's history, and that BF5 is a return to that direction.

    More people experiencing BF for the first time in a game with spammable 3d spotting doesn't nullify the fact that such a mechanic is unprecedented and unseen in other BF games and other shooters, it's not "the norm" for fps games in general, and not featuring such a mechanic does not make a game more "hardcore lite".

    There's a difference between the game being merely different to how you personally and subjectivley "perceive" BF games are supposed to be - and insisting a BF game is leaning toward being "hardcore" because it doesn't include mechanics that reached a level of hand-holding that is unseen in the majority of BF titles before it as well as essentially every other shooter franchise in existence.

    There might actually be a point to be made if BF5 actually had some semblance of hardcore gameplay, but it's essentially the exact opposite. It has incredibly straightforward gunplay. Ffs, the gunplay in those recent games was less approachable and "more hardcore" in terms of recoil, spread, and rbd, and they included a suppression mechanic which functioned almost identically to suppression mechanics in hardcore milsim games. Those recent games also had limited means of traversal and slower average movement speed - whereas movement speed and momentum in BF5 is on-a-dime fast and you have so many terrain traversal mechanics it's not even funny. You can carry around a spare med pack, you can revive teammates even if you're not a Medic, there are forms of spotting all over the place, they even made player models glow with rim lighting and have player name tags appear in cqb. The ttk isn't faster (definitely now), vehicles still have 3rd person cameras and now have quick repair as well as self repair, there are still cheap OHK pickup weapons like the katana and flamethrower, planes now have a THIRD PERSON AIMING RETICLE for dropping ordinance, rifle muzzle velocity is amongst the highest its ever been in the franchise, headshot hit boxes are huge again, you can slide around on your knees like they're greased up and the ground is ice. We still have a HUD with a health bar, objs, minimap, ammo count, etc. Suppression now spots people through solid objects. Consoles still have aim assist and they even RE-ADDED auto rotation snap assist. I can go on all day long.

    So what, I ask for the 3rd or 4th time, makes BF5 more akin to a hardcore game, rather than BF3-BF1 merely pushing the casualization and accessibility of these games to new heights? Because as someone who has put thousands of hours into Refractor-era BF games as well as nearly every milsim out there - BF5 does nothing to make its gameplay more hardcore than any given casual shooter out there. Rather, those few recent BF games took their arcadey and cheesy mechanics and pushed their utility to players into hyper-drive.

    People can prefer that style of BF all they want, and the reason behind that is probably because it's when they started playing BF - but it doesn't make BF5 a "hardcore lite" game outright more than it makes that select group of BF games significantly more casualized and emphasized on the game systems holding players' hands than games before it and most other FPS games in existence.

    I could also easily pick and choose mechanics and design decisions from those few games that are harder to approach than they are in BF5 and insist it makes those games "hardcore lite" - it'd still be a nonsensical argument. Because those games definitely are not hardcore games.

    BF5 being less casualized and accessible than literally 4 games out of the entire franchise does not make BF5 akin to hardcore fps games.

    I don't know why you keep telling us something about "true history" or "reality". I was merely stating that its perfectly legitimate to call this game hardcore lite. As I said, history isn't important a priori in this regard and I didn't claim anything about it either. Just because I say that it's legitimate to call the game hardcore lite doesn't mean that I somehow claim that all bf games were less hardcore than bfv or whatever. So stop acting like I do.

    I mean by your argument any series that somewhat changed simply isn't defined clearly anymore, because you have to take into account EVERYTHING the series ever did (maybe including contradictory attributes). If hardline 2 was to release in 10 years nobody could call it out for not being a war game because 14 years ago there was already a bf game with the same theme, hence that's bf.

    We are in fact NOT discussing how bfv compares to other bf titles, that's exactly the point. We are discussing whether or not it's reasonable to call the game hardcore lite and that is solely dependent on the perception of the franchise which may or may not be dependent on certain parts of its history. But its not dependent on said parts a priori.
    Your problem is that you think that calling bfv hardcore lite is somehow equivalent to claiming that its a hardcore shooter or at least leaning in this direction. Its not.
    The term is merely an expression of people feeling SOME similarities to the hardcore modes of previous titles (hence hardcore LITE). Absence of spotting, super fast ttd/deadly weapons, struggling with visibility - partially due to absence of spotting, no full health regen. Those are all things that were in hardcore mode of previous titles, but not in the vanilla mode. That's all it is. You don't need to get worked up over that. Nobody here is calling bfv a hardcore shooter.

    Finally consider that "what bf is" is simply what people think it is. Nothing more. Any kind of evaluation of facts is purely subjective at the end of the day. The only consistent way of defining this term is to simply take the "average" (so to say) of how it is perceived. Also taking all history into account is stupid, as I mentioned before. The Roman empire was a great power, but that doesn't mean that I have to say the same about Italy now. Everything can change and change is not just adding new attributes, it's also removing some. Cool bf had some feature in the past but didn't have it anymore recently. Therefore bf has changed and this feature is not part of what bf is now, as simple as that.
  • GrizzGolf
    1422 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    I just hope its a modern setting 
  • Loqtrall
    12468 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    By the God's, you're obstinate!

    Many people use the term "hardcore lite' in relation to BFV but they are all wrong because you say so because of YOUR literal definition?

    Not everything is black and white or has to be dealt with in absolutes.

    No, it isn't my "definition" I'm using - I didn't define anything. I'm merely comparing BF5 to past BF games, to other shooter games, to specific fps games that call themselves hardcore, as well as hardcore mode in past games.

    I used that comparison, being as objective as possible, to point out that when ALL of those games and game modes are compared, it isn't BF5 that appears "Hardcore", it's BF3/4/1 that appear signirvantly more dumbed down and casualized than anything else around them. Saying a BF game that has less hand holding features than those games is "hardcore lite" solely because a select few of its mechanics and features are MARGINALLY less hand-holding and accessible would be to say that ANY FPS games without said mechanics at all (which are MOST fps games) are "more hardcore" regardless of how casual and arcadey they are in countless other facets.

    Such logic is nonsense. If an argument is, for instance, that BF5s lack of spammable 3d spotting makes it "more hardcore" of a shooter game - that'd mean any shooter in existence without that mechanic would be considered a "more hardcore" shooter regardless of how casually and arcadey the rest of the game is designed to be. That'd be a baseless argument that the 3d spotting in those games is the "norm" for shooters. When it's not. It's the norm solely for that handful of specific BF titles. It's a norm that was HEAVILY criticized.

    You and others still have pointed out nothing that makes BF5 a "hardcore lite" shooter outside of insisting its how people "feel" because you started playing during BC2/BF3/BF4/BF1, which had otherwise unprecedented levels of hand-holding HUD and gameplay mechanics.

    Not everything is black and white? The history of this franchise is, as well as how those frw BF titles objectively compare to one another as well as to other shooters out there.

    It's a weak argument to insist BF5 is the outlier when, in terms of the entire franchise, THOSE games are the outlier whereas BF5 is essentially a return to form - with the closest thing in recent memory to compare to being Classic Mode in BF4.
  • Loqtrall
    12468 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    SirBobdk wrote: »
    The hard core light is a feeling more than facts and I would guess it comes from dying faster and many times from out of no where due to visiual cluster and many places to hide. It makes it feel like hard core without being it. Thereby the term hard core light

    Except that happened plenty of times in past games as well. Even without visual clutter, recent titles had people comparing everywhere and they had just as fast a ttk as we do now. Hell, lol, BF1 even gave people rifles that would OHK you 100+ meters away before you could even react. Camping and dying too quickly have been incessant topics of discussion in essentially every BF game that exists outside of maybe BF Heroes and the launch-era days of BF1 when it's ttk was beyond the slowest the franchise had seen.
  • Loqtrall
    12468 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    NLBartmaN wrote: »
    (Quote)
    To me as "new" BF player on console (started at BF1 and so comparing to BF1):

    3D spotting is limited by how many ammo a gadget from a certain class has and IF those players even spot, just point and cllick (like in BF1) is not there.

    Attrition is a huge thing regarding health.
    Edit: forgot vehicle attrition which is the worst part of attrition and makes vehicle weak and make them camp and makes the game hardcore lite.

    Animations (for me has nothing to do with Hardcore, they are just annoying and far too long and kill the fun)

    It is FASTER ttk, because of the TTD bug, feels VERY hardcore.

    Visual indicators (I assume you mean the GUI/HUD, hit indicator, messages, etc?) are not available in hardcore indeed, but I do see the poor visibility as hardcore lite ...

    There is no FULL helath regen, just partly, so hardcore lite for me.

    Add to my list: insane accurate easy to control recoil weapons even at mid range: hardcore lite

    Yeah for me BF V feels, compared to BF1, like hardcore lite, and I DON'T like it and I guess with me lots of other players that started with BF1 don't like it ...

    So not having unlimited ammo in vehicles is a hardcore feature? It doesn't make vehicles weak, it makes them unable to trounce around a map with zero support like they're a one man army like they have been in past games. Vehicles are supposed to be team-supported force multipliers - not wannabe one-man killing machines that if unopposed can go on doing their thing non stop with no help. That's aside the fact that AT equipment is a joke in this game against a tanker who knows what he's doing, and we spawn with less ammo for AT launchers than any other game in this franchise. Vehicles also have emergency repair and self repair, which are two insanely casual and arcadey features.

    There's a difference between a shift in balance and something being "hardcore". To insist not having unlimited ammo in a vehicle makes things more hardcore would be to insist any facet in a shooter that doesn't allow for infinite ammo is hardcore lite.

    And no, there is not a faster ttk because of the ttd bug. The ttd bug is not consistent and universal at all times of gameplay, and it is not experienced on the damage-dealing player's end at all. On their screen the TTK is correct, and it's as fast on average as other titles in the franchise.

    And not having FULL health regen makes the game more akin to hardcore games? There isn't a hardcore game in existence with health regeneration in any way. Plus there's the fact you can carry around and resupply a spare health pack regardless of whether or not you're a Medic, and full heal yourself on the fly - the Medic class can do it infinitely. That's not hardcore in the slightest.

    LOL and the worst and most inane part of this response is to gunplay. Gunplay in this game is the polar opposite of hardcore. Have you ever actually played a hardcore or milsim shooter at all? Because they definitely do not have easily accessible and supremely easy to handle gunplay. Hardcore shooters have gunplay based on tons of recoil and tons of spread in full auto fire, emphasis on holding your breath to steady aim with scoped weapons, emphasis on tap firing to avoid inaccuracy.

    In BF5 I can full auto spray somebody down with supreme accuracy dozens of meters away without worrying at all about spread and recoil that's so easy to control its not even funny. It has rifles with nearly the highest muzzle velocity in the franchise. BF5s gunplay is probably and arguably the LEAST hardcore thing about it, which is saying something - because there's nothing else in this game that is really akin to "hardcore" mechanics.
  • ninjapenquinuk
    2247 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    AT equipment being a joke? Come on, stop trolling!
  • Trokey66
    9160 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 9
    AT equipment being a joke? Come on, stop trolling!

    He just doesn't get it.

    No one I have seen use the term 'Hardcore lite' has said this mechanic is Hardcore or that one is, it is not about that.

    It is not about the individual mechanics being a Hardcore mechanic, it is about the sum of all the tweaks and changes, additions and removals that gives BFV a Hardcore Lite feel, probably as a result of DICE's drive to make it a 'competitive shooter'.

    The ironic thing is, many of the examples he bangs on about are many of the reason why people feel BFV is 'Hardcore Lite'.
  • NightSkyn3t
    120 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    The only hardcore thing that should remain in the next battlefield is the lack of 3d spotting it's way better because you can use more different strats 
    (for those who will say that there will be a visibility problem you won't suffer from this if you play a lot so you will take habits of spotting hiding spots automatically you don't need a good eyesight for this)
  • ninjapenquinuk
    2247 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    3D spotting I hate. Shouldn't be a thing. Pinging, is fine, but not the doritos we had in bf1. Assuming BF6 is modern will mean more gadgets to allow spotting on the mini, which is fine for the setting.  Flanking is so much easier with squad spawns. Another thing i dislike and think it should go back to squad leader only. I'm probably one of those people who would prefer a more 'hardcore lite' experience. I'd be ok with mag only reloads for example, and have fewer but more balanced guns that were faction specific but I know these things would put me in the minority. I originally played my games on PC before moving to console once I couldn't justify spend tons on a new pc just for games, so I know my experience and preference would be different to players who have only played console.
  • TrueRedslayer
    152 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Hardcore will make no difference in the games success, other than the fact that they can stop trying to cater to the CoD crowd in the main game modes and just do it in HC.
  • Trokey66
    9160 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Hardcore will make no difference in the games success, other than the fact that they can stop trying to cater to the CoD crowd in the main game modes and just do it in HC.

    If it makes normal mode more fun, it might.....
  • EBS_BillBailey
    110 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    EA and DICE missed their chance to have an absolutely awesome game of epic proportions.
    Why they decided to make a sanitised version of  WW2, I fail to understand.
    There were so many battles that could have been added instead of the made up ones, I really think they have lost the plot.
    And the most insulting thing of all, after announcing the end of bf5 on the day of VE day, they release an elite pay for unlock.
  • The_BERG_366
    2781 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    EA and DICE missed their chance to have an absolutely awesome game of epic proportions.
    Why they decided to make a sanitised version of  WW2, I fail to understand.
    There were so many battles that could have been added instead of the made up ones, I really think they have lost the plot.
    And the most insulting thing of all, after announcing the end of bf5 on the day of VE day, they release an elite pay for unlock.

    What do you mean? What battles were "made up"?
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