If Dice wants their next game to be successful they must listen to hardcore players

Comments

  • ninjapenquinuk
    2247 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Hardcore is subjective and has I think lost all meaning on this forum in the way the term camping has. It gets bandied about and used wen it shouldn't be. Even in 'hardcore' mode BF games are still not comparible to the acknowledged more HC games like red orchestra or the new ones like Hell let loose. All HC means in BF is the mode is less forgiving (health and damage) and has fewer visual ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. There's really is very little HC about BFV. Is it less forgiving then BF1- yes, but that's it
  • Deagnos234
    6 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    There isnt a single game company that actually listens to their players. The dev's arent actual gamers so they have no idea how to make the game playable and balanced
  • Carbonic
    1947 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    There isnt a single game company that actually listens to their players. The dev's arent actual gamers so they have no idea how to make the game playable and balanced
    This is probably the most wrong thing on here that I've read in a long time :D
  • SirBobdk
    5318 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Carbonic wrote: »
    (Quote)
    This is probably the most wrong thing on here that I've read in a long time :D

    I would say that Dice listened to much and change to many things.
  • The_BERG_366
    2781 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Loqtrall said:
    The problem is that calling a game "hardcore lite" isnt self descriptive at all. And you constantly repeating your claims about what you think it means won't change that or turn your opinion into a fact. Me and other users here mentioned multiple times how the word was used and explained why it is reasonable to use it in this way.

    Whenever such terms are used they are relative to something. Your baseline isn't any better than the one most people use. And yours isn't any more intuitive than the one I mentioned. You keep saying that people are just mentioning their opinion and that your way of looking at it (and hence also your baseline) is somehow the objective one. But that's not the case, it's just as much of an opinion. You just don't seem to see the non-objective assumptions you made yourself.
    Comparing it to "more" isn't more objective or intuitive either. If I test drive an ebike and then state "damn this is pretty fast" then I don't imply that I think that this bike is pretty fast compared to all vehicles I encounter on the road. Its obvious that I state this in comparison to other bikes (maybe even in comparison to only non electric bikes). And the same concept applies here. As I said nobody (or at least I haven't seen anybody) claims that bfv is a hardcore shooter.

    The same applies to hardcore mode of recent bf titles. The term was used in exactly the same way. Hardcore mode just means "more hardcore than vanilla bf", not "hyper realistic war experience". Fact of the matter is, that bfv has a decent amount of important mechanics, that influence the feel of the gameplay a lot, that are handled in a way that the hardcore mode of previous titles handled it. Hence "hardcore lite". If you think that is not enough than why weren't you here in the bf4 or bf1 forums complaining about the hardcore modes of these games not actually being "hardcore" enough?
    You basically blame people for using terms in the way that they were defined in a game, in order to describe that same game. We had hardcore more in previous titles and now we have something that has certain aspect of that. But now don't you dare trying to express this resemblance by using the terms used in this very game for years....

    See the thing you're missing is that we have an actual genre of hardcore fps games to objectively compare to. We also have hardcore mode to objectively compare to.

    What I've said has nothing to do with my opinion and everything to do with factual comparisons between BF5 and Hardcore shooters/Hardcore mode in the face of people who are insisting BF5 is too hardcore for a BF game. I haven't mentioned my "baseline", I've only mentioned other games in comparison, mechanically, to BF5 in as objective a fashion I could. I haven't even mentioned whether I personally felt some aspects of BF5 "went too far" or not, I've merely stated that in direct and objective comparison, BF5 does not compare at all to actual HC shooters nor HC mode in past games.

    That has nothing to do with what I personally think. That's a truthful comparison between games that in attempting to keep my opinions out of, because I enjoy both casual/arcadey and hardcore/milsim shooters all the same.

    I never even insisted anyone said BF is flatout a "hardcore game". This entire time I've used nothing but "hardcore lite", "more hardcore", "akin to hardcore", etc to describe the argument people were making. Which is exactly what was happening, and exactly what continues to happen as later in this comment you attempt to directly liken BF5 to HC mode in past games.

    This isn't about "my baseline", this is about how things are defined in the real world - in an industry where the type of game someone is playing is not dictated by "perception based on limited experience". In a world where history isn't negligible and forgotten merely because you didn't experience it.

    Now let's move on to your last paragraph:

    You want to talk about facts? You're factually wrong about BF5 in comparison to HC mode in past games. What, I ask, mechanics in BF5 are handled in the way they are in HC mode in past games?

    Spotting isn't, the TTK isn't, the HUD isn't, friendly fire isn't, squad spawning isn't, mag dumping isn't, health regen isn't, 3rd person camera isn't, the minimap isn't.

    WHAT was handled in the same way as hardcore mode? What mechanics or collective of mechanics in BF5 make it akin to how those things are handled in a hardcore fps game? I've literally asked variations of this question FIVE TIMES and have gotten no concrete or straightforward answers outside of "because I feel that way because I didn't start playing until BF3".

    LOL and why do you assume I wasn't on these forums making complaints about Bf4 or BF1s hardcore mode? I made plenty of complaints about the fact you could still bring up the full map in BF4 HC and see 3d/2d spotting. I made plenty of criticisms towards BF1s approach to hardcore being specifically 200% firearm damage instead of 60% health. Lmao, one shouldn't post assuming to know my long-time posting history here when they obviously don't.

    The fact of the matter is BF5 is not similar in any way to hardcore mode in past games. The most you can say is we specifically don't have spammable 3d spotting - but 3d spotting is still rife in this game - and that health doesn't fully regen, but health does regen and you can carry around a spare med pack that full heals you. wherein HC mode there was no health regen without a Medic at all.

    If THAT is what you're basing your claims on, then the "hardcore lite" argument is weaker than I initially thought.

    Hardcore has indeed been a term used in BF for years - but BF5 is not similar at all, it approaches no mechanics in the way HC mode did in past games - thus using it to half-describe BF5s gameplay is nonsense.

    That's essentially saying that any gameplay mechanic that is even MARGINALLY less accessible or casualized than what's in Normal mode in those past games causes BF5 to be "more hardcore". That's absolute nonsense. There's a difference between a mechanic being different in design and functionality to another game, and that mechanic being akin to what we'd see in HC mode in older games.
    what are you even saying? you don't have to "mention" a baseline in order for it to be defined. you automatically define it by using it in your argumentation. you now act like you don't really have a baseline because you compare the game to every possible way of defining "hardcore". however, you specifically insisted that older titles (pre bf3) are important to take into consideration. you also insisted that its important to look at the hardcore genre as a whole. This is where your subjective baseline comes into play. if you were not opinionated you wouldn't insist on certain parts of your comparison being important. your argument would consistently be "my comparison works for any kind of definition, so show me how it doesnt for yours", rather than "games before bf3 are in deed important". 
    As i said before, the term isn't self-descriptive enough to intuitively define itself in an unambiguous way. hence insisting on pre bf3 games being important to take into consideration (for example) isn't reasonable. 

    i already answered this question in a previous comment directed at you. "The term is merely an expression of people feeling SOME similarities to the hardcore modes of previous titles (hence hardcore LITE). Absence of spotting (edit: active spotting), super fast ttd/deadly weapons, struggling with visibility - partially due to absence of spotting, no full health regen.". 
    You choosing to ignore my reply doesnt mean that nobody answered you. 

    well i was in these forums for the majority of bf4 and all of bf1 and ive never seen you posting something like that, but if you did, fair enough. This just goes to show that you are in deed opinionated on this topic furtherly reinforcing the point i made in my first paragraph. your opinion of hardcore mode not really being "hardcore" still shines through in your arguments in this thread. If you handled it objectively, it would be clear to you that these arguments are irrelevant to my argument though.  

    "That's essentially saying that any gameplay mechanic that is even MARGINALLY less accessible or casualized than what's in Normal mode in those past games causes BF5 to be "more hardcore"". Well yes of course lmao. at least if you either put "hardcore" and "accessible/casual" on two opposite sides of the spectrum and make an absolute claim, or if you make a relative comparison to hardcore mode of older titles and the change to the mechanic goes into the direction of said hardcore mode. like... :joy: 
    So yeah in deed no spammable spotting and no active spotting without gadgets in the first place, no full health regen and fast ttk (especially at range). Again these things don't have to work EXACTLY like in HC mode. But the way they work is somewhere between the hc and vanilla version of previous games. Hence MORE hardcore...

    The argument would be weak if your opinionated baseline was objective, but it isn't. Using hardcore mode of previous titles is a perfectly fine baseline (and in fact the most reasonable one) as its what its intuitively associated with "battlefield hardcore". again, this term is used by most people to express that certain things about the game are more akin to hardcore mode of previous titles, thats literally it. i cant believe it took you pages to realise that despite multiple users expressing this for days. 

    "There's a difference between a mechanic being different in design and functionality to another game, and that mechanic being akin to what we'd see in HC mode in older games."
    well yeah, maybe. you basically say, that theres a difference between a mechanic being different to A and a mechanic being akin to B, while theres no intuitive relation between A and B. This sentence says literally nothing...

  • bigiain
    387 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    SirBobdk said:
    Carbonic wrote: »
    (Quote)
    This is probably the most wrong thing on here that I've read in a long time :D

    I would say that Dice listened to much and change to many things.
    I'm still convinced that the changes were more to do with trying to grab that Fortnite money than listening to the community. Point to spot was never going to work in a Battle Royale so had to go and they sold it as making the game more hardcore. Huge chunks of the community lapped that up along with the meaningless talk about a focus on teamwork despite the game having less than usual.

     Then the beta appeared and put a lot of those players right off buying the game.


  • llPhantom_Limbll
    6309 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    SirBobdk said:
    Carbonic wrote: »
    (Quote)
    This is probably the most wrong thing on here that I've read in a long time :D

    I would say that Dice listened to much and change to many things.
    No. Dice listened only to things they wanted to hear and changed the things the way they wanted. That's why lots of dumb and unnecessary stuff is still in game and at this point will never go away.
  • GenCuster
    211 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 11
    .....
  • fragnstein
    835 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    It is clear that he is incapable of understanding why the term 'Hardcore Lite' is used as he can only deal in absolutes.

    He is also incapable or unwilling to accept or even acknowledge, that some people have only played on console. How can people who have never experianced a game, use that experience in any comparison they make?

    There are plenty of other games on the console that don't have spotting. You only want make comparisons between a select few games to make your point. Maybe play other hardcore shooters and increase your pool of data, then come back with a broader thought
  • Trokey66
    9142 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    fragnstein wrote: »
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    It is clear that he is incapable of understanding why the term 'Hardcore Lite' is used as he can only deal in absolutes.

    He is also incapable or unwilling to accept or even acknowledge, that some people have only played on console. How can people who have never experianced a game, use that experience in any comparison they make?

    There are plenty of other games on the console that don't have spotting. You only want make comparisons between a select few games to make your point. Maybe play other hardcore shooters and increase your pool of data, then come back with a broader thought

    Why bring other games into it?

    This is purely a comparison between BFV and previous Battlefield games on console. What other franchises do, or do not do, is irrelevant to that.
  • NightSkyn3t
    120 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member

    SirBobdk said:
    SirBobdk said:
    The only hardcore thing that should remain in the next battlefield is the lack of 3d spotting it's way better because you can use more different strats 
    (for those who will say that there will be a visibility problem you won't suffer from this if you play a lot so you will take habits of spotting hiding spots automatically you don't need a good eyesight for this)

    Never was a fan of spotting, but the more they improve the graphic the harder it gets seeing the enemy on PC. It turns the gameplay into hide and seek. So i have change my mind and would like BF1 spotting back.
    You don't need a good eyesight to spot ennemies you can ear them or expect someone to be on some spots when you know the map
    M-A-P K-N-O-W-L-E-D-G-E  is more important than eyesight
    Maybe, but for me its a question of the funfactor and previous BF games with 3D spotting and better visiability was just more fun to play. I know how to play every single map and where people use to hide but it dont make it more fun to play. It just takes more time and makes the game more boring.
    if you take time to spot ennemies and hiding spots you didn't played enough the more you play the faster you see hiding spots so removing 3D spotting gives the advantage to experienced players 
    I don't understand how is that not fun to spot campers and knife them and end up getting called a hacker by that salty camper 
  • spateri1
    270 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    This isn't a bashing thread for Normal core players, it's strictly talking about the addition of Hardcore.

    Hardcore really isn't a demanding option. We just want more damage, no map, and no aim assist. If we can get those things the game would be fine. Sure things like flares may not work correctly, but it's Hardcore.

    Battlefield Bad Company 3, BF3, and BF4 are good examples

    Casual players wont agree is why we have this problem. Bad sales and pandering to grubs is why this game has little love by the BF faithful. All it comes down to is the EA execs trying to squeeze money out of nothing like any company.

    Look at Warzone. Parachuting, multi level mayhem like bf4 was. It's free to play for the most part. Warzone is alot better than the MP for a BF fan. Have you played it? Just add some air and tanks....damn. This game is great for any conquest bf3/4 fan.

    I'm sure the cagey developers will be taking note. To get into a game of plunder from starting the ps4 takes about 2-3 minutes. BF5 usually about 4-7 minimum.

    That's called a player base. Its also called looking after your player base. It needs a server browser but 95% of the time it works well.

    I'm sure ypu guys won't improve the rsp as it might take away from bf6 sales. Thats what the execs think. BF5 gunplay is on point. Just release something and listen to your hc fans like bf3 and 4. Stop trying to pander to everyone. BF6 clearly needs a good battle royale at launch and it needs to be free. Make ypur money on cosmetics foe those that play for free. We'll buy the mp part if you don't take tbe p$%× out of us.

    Just saying.
  • TFBisquit
    2284 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Regardless, was watching that levelcap video about what BF6 needs. And that video plus title is exactly what BF6 does not need.
    Too many people trying to decide how a game should be, how they feel it would be better etc etc.
    I say make the game and then we consumers decide if it's worthwhile. If it's not, the devs can learn from that and improve things how they see fit.
    Not because some yt type feels how it should be.
    Not that it's bad to listen what your customers have to say about your product, but ultimately we have to take and digest what they offer us.
    -
    As for HC and SC, I never had an issue with BF3, played the BF4 beta and had no issue with that either. I prefer SC but understand there are players that prefer HC.
    BF5 just isn't fun to fire up, too unpredictable, no real weapons that feel fun to play with etc etc.
    Not enough HC or SC. Inbetween which isn't good.
  • Hawxxeye
    7774 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    DICE/EA and any other entertainment corporations need to get over the corporate belief that the customer is stupid and should not be listened to.
  • NoHack9F
    16 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Im agree about some point about Hardcore mode.

    In this day, Community Game is allowing ToW,Exp and progression too. But sad, no one love to play in Community Game. DICE servers is the most player love. I dont know, maybe people out there love to use cheats  . I tried hard to make a trand to fulfill any of Community game instead of DICE official. BF4 live with it, BFV should follow how BF4 works. We need to move the whole community and search for good influencer. I see the problem now, the influencer of BFV is full of pesimistic and just complaining about history and skin that actually not so important in the aspect of the gameplay. So sad, community in BF is so cry baby and not having stance compared to CSGO community.

    We need to solve this problem together (DICE and community).If anti cheats will not enough to beat them, Lets make and populate community game like we did before in BF4. Please give us more authortiy to build an healthy environment! The actual problem in BFV are not about skin, history, or weapons. But caused by cheaters that iritate this master piece. 

    Lets make a trend to make and play in Community Game! 
  • hkspm123
    413 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    just wanna point out hardcore on bf4 does have aim assist, im not sure if its the owner setting for the server or not , from what ive seen they do have aim assist
  • Hawxxeye
    7774 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 12
    SirBobdk said:
    Carbonic wrote: »
    (Quote)
    This is probably the most wrong thing on here that I've read in a long time :D

    I would say that Dice listened to much and change to many things.
    No. Dice listened only to things they wanted to hear and changed the things the way they wanted. That's why lots of dumb and unnecessary stuff is still in game and at this point will never go away.
    I could go as far as to say that DICE is either not listening or when they are listening they play "corrupt a wish" with us.
    .
    As the video I linked  above explains, entertainment companies who have been taken over by the beancounters officially consider the customers dumb and not worth listening to and will denounce established fandoms in pursuit of a different audience (f2p mobile, battle royale and twitter/Reera "gamers").
  • Loqtrall
    12468 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 12
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    In your opinion.....

    As a console only player who has never experianced BF2 etc, how am I supposed to include those games in my opinion of how I feel BF5 plays?

    Take your word for it?

    You yourself has said numerous times through out this thread that all previous iterations on CONSOLE are the most 'casualised' in the whole serious with BFV being closer to older PC games.

    Why then can you not grasp the concept that people who have only played the 'casualised' console games would feel BFV has a 'Hardcore Lite' approach?

    And as to researching the holocaust or crusades in order to come to an informed option on what it felt like...... Oh dear!

    No, objectively. Because compared to essentially every other BF game and FPS game out there - BF5 is not approaching hardcore fps gameplay, it's essentially your average shooter experience and still even features some insanely casual elements not seen in other fps games (like 3d spotting mechanics that are still in BF5).

    So yes, at the MOST, you are calling BF5 "Hardcore lite" in comparison to 3 or 4 specific games. And as I've said at least 3 times now, that says more about THOSE games than it days about how "hardcore" BF5 is. If they're the sole examples in the entire franchise you can come up with to compare to.

    And if you haven't experienced a game but want to trounce around the forum making comparisons between BF titles, DO RESEARCH. There's an entire BF Fandom wiki with all the information about all BF games you could ever want - from explaining what classes games had, weapons, vehicles, etc, all the way to explaining which games had spotting/suppression/etc and to what extent it was used. There are a myriad of videos you could watch.

    An absolute trove of options outside of "taking my word for it" or blindly and baselessly making claims based solely on a lack of experience with the rest of the franchise.

    And no, I didn't say that ALL the iterations of BF on console are over casualized. Because they're not - especially BF2MC, BC1, and to some extent BC2. I have said and always maintained that specifically BF3, BF4, BF Hardline, and BF1 are the overcasualized games. They're the games that took 3d spotting, 2d spotting, suppression, health regen, hand holding vehicle play, etc to the levels that hadn't been seen in this franchise. They took all the mechanics that increase the accessibility of these games and shifted them into overdrive. THEY are the standout titles in this franchise, not BF5.

    BF5 is a return to form, or at least a return to that general direction. It is more akin to Classic Mode in BF4 than it is to any given hardcore mode or game. Even then, there are still blatantly arcadey and handholding mechanics in BF5 that make it differ from even Classic mode.

    And AGAIN - AFTER JUST TELLING YOU - I grasp the concept you're putting forth, loud and clear. I'm merely arguing against it because it's a weak, opinionated argument that insists player lack of experience dictates what BF is and has been. It doesn't matter if you didn't start playing until BF3, BF4, etc - that doesn't negate the existence of the rest of the franchise or how close BF5 is to those older titles. Yours and others lack of experience does not magically and objectively dictate what type of game BF is in comparison to other fps games and game modes in past games overall.

    That's why you need to be taught some experience and history about these games. So you stop acting like your first or preferred BF title is all BF is, ever was, and ever should be - and stop acting like anything that's even MARGINALLY less accessible qualifies as "hardcore lite".

    Lastly, an informed opinion on what those things felt like? Did you even read the example I used, or did you see those words, skip to the end of it, and just assume the point I was trying to get across. I said what you're doing in this thread is akin to someone saying, for instance, a bus accident where 10 people died is a worse tragedy than, say, the holocaust wherein millions tragically lost their lives, merely because the person is young and doesn't know anything about the holocaust at all.

    You're essentially saying other games don't matter because you haven't played, don't know, or don't care about them - which is complete nonsense, because we're talking about an objective analysis and comparison of BF5 to other games in this franchise as an indication of whether or not it is "hardcore lite" or "half hardcore".

    You can't just include the games you've played or cared about when making such a claim, and attempt to use that incredibly small handful of games to dictate what should be normal or hardcore for any given BF title out there.

    At that point the comparison is ever skewed and biased in your favor because you're solely comparing it to only games you've played and preferred. At that point, the comparison is meaningless and the claim should be ignored, because it isn't being legitimately truthful or objective about whether or not BF5 is actually "hardcore lite" - it's merely portraying the message of "I think BF5 is hardcore lite, regardless of how comparable to other BF games and other arcade fps games it is, because it's not as overcasualized and accessible as my preferred BF title"

    There's no logic in that from my standpoint, there's no rationale at all. It sounds like someone who preferred specifically the most recent BF games baselessly lamenting over the current BF game not being exactly like the games they prefer - and completely and outright ignores comparisons to other games in the franchise or even other shooters because they'd rather irrationally insist it's BF5 that's too hardcore rather than admit it's their preferred BF titles that are IMMENSELY overcasualized compared to other BF and fps games out there.
  • filthmcnasty
    851 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    All they need to do is copy and paste BF4's Hardcore settings, from BF:BC2 to BF1, BF4 easily had the best Hardcore settings, with BF1 being the worst.

    And DICE, for Christ's sake, keep the parkour elements like sliding out, and remove Gears of War's roadie run.

    I'd ask for the next title to be the long awaited return of Bad Company but I have no faith you guys won't f**k that up too.
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