The New Patch Destroyed Air Game play

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Comments

  • spychodelics
    404 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    DukeSan27 said:
    Well, well, well. How the tables have turned for ground against planes. 

    The MAA Tank is actually good now, fly straight on to it and you die. DICE finally acknowledged that this is the right design. 

    FF sounds OP, though I am not shedding any tears for Pilots though after the while of Planes one-shotting Tanks.

    Hope these changes last until BF6 arrives, will be only good for everyone. 
    Pilots will adapt 
  • Hawxxeye
    7570 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 14
    olavafar said:
    Hawxxeye said:
    On paper all the changes look amazing to me.
    .
    First of all the AA buff vs fighters returns us to the Fighter > bomber > AA >fighter balance. Ace-ish fighter pilots that cannot be touched from the ground have always been an issue in the BF games I played. (the situation described by Olavafar above is not an issue since they still won the round)
    .
    The "satellite flares" issue gets fixed so the flares have to be used at an altitude where the enemies can see them and counter them.
    .
    Several bugs finally get addressed including the godmode UK rockets.
    .
    .
    Sadly I do not see any mention of the bofors AA being available to the Germans as well

    A bit late on this one and pardon for not quoting also my text. The thing that did not come out very clearly in my post is that it is actually an issue in that situation. Yes, we won the round but that was not the point, nor really that the bomber went 50+ either (I realize I should not have mentioned that). The point is that the bombers + SAAs contributes to locking down a stalled round. I'm not sure the other team would be able to break out or not but in any case our bombers made it almost impossible for them and they had nothing that could threat the bombers. I like to win but I prefer to do it in a somewhat balanced round where some bad luck on how squads choose to run at the start should not decide the whole round.

    Rock-paper-scissors works well but here the scissors (fighters) always only make it half way through the paper (bomber) before they get destroyed by the rock (SAA). Mostly they can't even get close enough to cut at all. I shall admit I'm very biased here though because I almost only fly fighters and primary for taking out enemy planes. If I fly a bomber it is mostly for a single bomb run to take out a specific tank.

    It is not for BFV but I like the model where the spawn SAA cannot really be killed from air but also does not do very much damage to planes. Thus one can guard the airspace over spawn but wont quickly kill anything that get close to it (for example when pursuing an enemy). Like it worked in BF3 on some maps if I remember correctly.

    Now that you mention BF3 , I just installed BF3 for PC and tried a round of CQ on the firestorm map.
    At a point I decided to get in the attack helicopter and before I even got 20 meters off the ground BRRRRRT! A flanker jet gets nails the helicopter with the pods and the machinegun.

    So I decided to perhaps try to guard the spawn point with the stationary AA that was  in the base. The result: I barely tickled the enemy aircraft that game in the range of the AA while they could perfectly  attack what was taking off or circlespam dance with a friendly jet for 3 min pretty close to the base.
    Earlier before the attack helicopter incident I decided to try the igla to see what I could do to some passing aircraft: I start locking on and the jet deploys ECM, so I wait out until the ECM effect passes and launch the missile... by the time the missile gets close his ECM had recharged os he uses it again to shake off the next missile and he is out of range now :)
    So the BF3 fighters were cleaning up all the enemy air assets and on the free time were firing rocket pods at some tank or soldier. The only one who could stop them was another jet of comparable skill.
    This is exactly the same situation I remember from the distant past that made me so critical of pilots that cannot be stopped by anything the ground can use.
    .
    In BFV we never had that powerful planes even at the worst of times. First of all the BF1/BFV planes cannot deflect AA thrown at them.
    I have reconsidered what you said and I am thinking that the AA needs a damage dropoff so that it does not create that scenario where a ju88 main becomes untouchable. We do not need immortal JU88/Blenheims. If the spawn AA that is meant to defend the base is hunting down planes halfway across the map or beyond then we have a problem.

    Post edited by Hawxxeye on
  • sgtPoulton
    48 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    I think aim was to make infantry support air by killing stationary AA, so air will be able to support ground then. Sort of synergy. But in fact, random matchmaking dudes doesn't care this, tank red zone camping is still their weapon of choice
  • DingoKillr
    4304 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    (Quote)
    Now that you mention BF3 , I just installed BF3 for PC and tried a round of CQ on the firestorm map.At a point I decided to get in the attack helicopter and before I even got 20 meters off the ground BRRRRRT! A flanker jet gets nails the helicopter with the machinegun.So I decided to perhaps try to guard the spawn point with the stationary AA that was  in the base. The result: I barely tickled the enemy aircraft that game in the range of the AA while they could perfectly  attack what was taking off or circlespam dance with a friendly jet for 3 min pretty close to the base.Earlier before the attack helicopter incident I decided to try the igla to see what I could do to some passing aircraft: I start locking on and the jet deploys ECM, so I wait out until the ECM effect passes and launch the missile... by the time the missile gets close his ECM had recharged os he uses it again to shake off the next missile and he is out of range now :)So the BF3 fighters were cleaning up all the enemy air assets and on the free time were firing rocket pods at some tank or soldier. The only one who could stop them was another jet of comparable skill.
    This is exactly the same situation I remember from the distant past that made me so critical of pilots that cannot be stopped by anything the ground can use.
    .In BFV we never had that powerful planes even at the worst of times. First of all the BF1/BFV planes cannot deflect AA thrown at them.
    I have reconsidered what you said and I am thinking that the AA needs a damage dropoff so that it does not create that scenario where a ju88 main becomes untouchable. We do not need immortal JU88/Blenheims. If the spawn AA that is meant to defend the base is hunting down planes halfway across the map or beyond then we have a problem.

    Which is what sort of happen to AA in BF4 it was either to short or to long. However the range on Aircraft in BF3/4 was also far to long. i.e. TV missile.

    BF1 got it mostly right as Air and AA effective ranges are reduce.

    BFV screwed up with Air having a much longer reach(include flight ceiling) then AA. If we are going to have long range weapons on Aircraft then you are right we need AA that has 3 stages of ranges. Which I think DICE is trying to do now.
  • olavafar
    2261 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    I think aim was to make infantry support air by killing stationary AA, so air will be able to support ground then. Sort of synergy. But in fact, random matchmaking dudes doesn't care this, tank red zone camping is still their weapon of choice
    ...and many stationary spawn AA is beyond reach for anyone else than pilots.

    Hawxxeye I did not imply that BF3 was some kind of 'best ever' for air balance (maybe that is not how you interpreted me either). Only mentioned it as reference for the base AA that was immune to air which I think was a good idea. How to balance it in terms of range and damage is of course not trivial. As far as I remember it in both BF3 and BF4 stealth jet pilots of some skill level were basically untouchable but they also did not have that much impact on the ground war if I remember it correctly (I have not played any of those games for years so I can be totally wrong here). At least in BF4, where I started flying, more seriously I only remember shooting down other jets and helicopters spiced with some occasional infantry kill with the main guns (but also there I almost never flew attack jets, only stealth fighters).
  • DingoKillr
    4304 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    4 things from me:

    1. Planes should not be able to ohk any tank at any point
    2. Planes should fear any AA and avoid locations guarded by it
    3. Planes should not be ohk by FF at any range
    4. Plane flares were fine and didn't need the nerf

    These seem obvious to me. Majority of people are overreacting once again but you can't extect less from this community which can only operate in extremes.

    1 and 2 agree.

    3 somewhat FF need to be better if you keep 1, SAA was getting taken out to quick, MAA not on some maps so you are left with a few players trying to use FF. That is the reasons why I see they have done it. Not to say there are other ways to improve.

    4 come off it plane flares could cover more then a flag, stayed around for every, had no effective counters and rewarded for no risk. Now you get higher reward for higher risk.
  • Hawxxeye
    7570 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 14
    olavafar said:
    I think aim was to make infantry support air by killing stationary AA, so air will be able to support ground then. Sort of synergy. But in fact, random matchmaking dudes doesn't care this, tank red zone camping is still their weapon of choice
    ...and many stationary spawn AA is beyond reach for anyone else than pilots.

    Hawxxeye I did not imply that BF3 was some kind of 'best ever' for air balance (maybe that is not how you interpreted me either). Only mentioned it as reference for the base AA that was immune to air which I think was a good idea. How to balance it in terms of range and damage is of course not trivial. As far as I remember it in both BF3 and BF4 stealth jet pilots of some skill level were basically untouchable but they also did not have that much impact on the ground war if I remember it correctly (I have not played any of those games for years so I can be totally wrong here). At least in BF4, where I started flying, more seriously I only remember shooting down other jets and helicopters spiced with some occasional infantry kill with the main guns (but also there I almost never flew attack jets, only stealth fighters).
    Perhaps I need to play BF3 some more to regain a better insight of  the way of things. Those rocket pods looked beefy enough as well as the denial of any helicopters.
    I am glad that someone else with some flight time is willing to admit that the BF3/4 stealth figthters were almost untouchable at the right hands, I said that a 3-4 pages ago and I was called a liar when I said that fighters had been stupid at times in the past and that I have a grudge against fighters for that.
    .
    .
    Why is it so hard for DICE to strike a balance between the planes being OP AF and the planes being just victims?
  • MammiBoo
    414 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye said:
    olavafar said:
    Hawxxeye said:
    On paper all the changes look amazing to me.
    .
    First of all the AA buff vs fighters returns us to the Fighter > bomber > AA >fighter balance. Ace-ish fighter pilots that cannot be touched from the ground have always been an issue in the BF games I played. (the situation described by Olavafar above is not an issue since they still won the round)
    .
    The "satellite flares" issue gets fixed so the flares have to be used at an altitude where the enemies can see them and counter them.
    .
    Several bugs finally get addressed including the godmode UK rockets.
    .
    .
    Sadly I do not see any mention of the bofors AA being available to the Germans as well

    A bit late on this one and pardon for not quoting also my text. The thing that did not come out very clearly in my post is that it is actually an issue in that situation. Yes, we won the round but that was not the point, nor really that the bomber went 50+ either (I realize I should not have mentioned that). The point is that the bombers + SAAs contributes to locking down a stalled round. I'm not sure the other team would be able to break out or not but in any case our bombers made it almost impossible for them and they had nothing that could threat the bombers. I like to win but I prefer to do it in a somewhat balanced round where some bad luck on how squads choose to run at the start should not decide the whole round.

    Rock-paper-scissors works well but here the scissors (fighters) always only make it half way through the paper (bomber) before they get destroyed by the rock (SAA). Mostly they can't even get close enough to cut at all. I shall admit I'm very biased here though because I almost only fly fighters and primary for taking out enemy planes. If I fly a bomber it is mostly for a single bomb run to take out a specific tank.

    It is not for BFV but I like the model where the spawn SAA cannot really be killed from air but also does not do very much damage to planes. Thus one can guard the airspace over spawn but wont quickly kill anything that get close to it (for example when pursuing an enemy). Like it worked in BF3 on some maps if I remember correctly.

    Now that you mention BF3 , I just installed BF3 for PC and tried a round of CQ on the firestorm map.
    At a point I decided to get in the attack helicopter and before I even got 20 meters off the ground BRRRRRT! A flanker jet gets nails the helicopter with the pods and the machinegun.

    So I decided to perhaps try to guard the spawn point with the stationary AA that was  in the base. The result: I barely tickled the enemy aircraft that game in the range of the AA while they could perfectly  attack what was taking off or circlespam dance with a friendly jet for 3 min pretty close to the base.
    Earlier before the attack helicopter incident I decided to try the igla to see what I could do to some passing aircraft: I start locking on and the jet deploys ECM, so I wait out until the ECM effect passes and launch the missile... by the time the missile gets close his ECM had recharged os he uses it again to shake off the next missile and he is out of range now :)
    So the BF3 fighters were cleaning up all the enemy air assets and on the free time were firing rocket pods at some tank or soldier. The only one who could stop them was another jet of comparable skill.
    This is exactly the same situation I remember from the distant past that made me so critical of pilots that cannot be stopped by anything the ground can use.
    .
    In BFV we never had that powerful planes even at the worst of times. First of all the BF1/BFV planes cannot deflect AA thrown at them.
    I have reconsidered what you said and I am thinking that the AA needs a damage dropoff so that it does not create that scenario where a ju88 main becomes untouchable. We do not need immortal JU88/Blenheims. If the spawn AA that is meant to defend the base is hunting down planes halfway across the map or beyond then we have a problem.

    Makes sense now, and I fully agree with your post.
    In bf4 you have only one fixed auto aa that needs planes/helis to be spotted to work, and one maa available, this means 2 gadgets where fixed aa is useless but works as an air deterrent only for space above base spawn and infys with igla/stinger/aa mines. Plus vehicles with soflam but needs a 2 man work as a squad while soflam range is really small. Aside that you need 3 man work to down a semiaverage AP pilot that will jdam your squad to death. So you need in an ideal scenario 3 infys: one engi with jav has the longest range out of all lock ons/recon with pld and support with mp aps+ammo box. At the same time plane has defence system as well ECM/flares +audio and directional queues when locked.

    In BFV i wont count FF cause they are similar to manpads in BF4. Any assault can carry those, but at the same time assault is more powerful than his engi counterpart in BF4-has enough power to engage armour.
    So any map in BFV has many SAA'S WITH retar ded range and buffed damage 20%+(example Narvik CQ, 4 BASE SPAWN saa, one F flag, one E flag, one B flag and another one that can be built on top of water tower in between A and B flags), MAA(S) depending maps.

    Let's do some math. Bfv planes have no defence against ground threats aside fleeing and audio queues from SAA;s when you hear FF generally it is too late. Before this pos patch any SAA working in combo with one FF user can down any fighter with ease. In comparison with BF4 that game with lockons, there you need 3 infys working together!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Thank you DICE, for your logic, and for this pos.
    And for idea of teamwork.
    And for destroying further more possibly the worst game in BF franchise's history.
  • Hawxxeye
    7570 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 14
    MammiBoo said:
    Hawxxeye said:
    olavafar said:
    Hawxxeye said:
    On paper all the changes look amazing to me.
    .
    First of all the AA buff vs fighters returns us to the Fighter > bomber > AA >fighter balance. Ace-ish fighter pilots that cannot be touched from the ground have always been an issue in the BF games I played. (the situation described by Olavafar above is not an issue since they still won the round)
    .
    The "satellite flares" issue gets fixed so the flares have to be used at an altitude where the enemies can see them and counter them.
    .
    Several bugs finally get addressed including the godmode UK rockets.
    .
    .
    Sadly I do not see any mention of the bofors AA being available to the Germans as well

    A bit late on this one and pardon for not quoting also my text. The thing that did not come out very clearly in my post is that it is actually an issue in that situation. Yes, we won the round but that was not the point, nor really that the bomber went 50+ either (I realize I should not have mentioned that). The point is that the bombers + SAAs contributes to locking down a stalled round. I'm not sure the other team would be able to break out or not but in any case our bombers made it almost impossible for them and they had nothing that could threat the bombers. I like to win but I prefer to do it in a somewhat balanced round where some bad luck on how squads choose to run at the start should not decide the whole round.

    Rock-paper-scissors works well but here the scissors (fighters) always only make it half way through the paper (bomber) before they get destroyed by the rock (SAA). Mostly they can't even get close enough to cut at all. I shall admit I'm very biased here though because I almost only fly fighters and primary for taking out enemy planes. If I fly a bomber it is mostly for a single bomb run to take out a specific tank.

    It is not for BFV but I like the model where the spawn SAA cannot really be killed from air but also does not do very much damage to planes. Thus one can guard the airspace over spawn but wont quickly kill anything that get close to it (for example when pursuing an enemy). Like it worked in BF3 on some maps if I remember correctly.

    Now that you mention BF3 , I just installed BF3 for PC and tried a round of CQ on the firestorm map.
    At a point I decided to get in the attack helicopter and before I even got 20 meters off the ground BRRRRRT! A flanker jet gets nails the helicopter with the pods and the machinegun.

    So I decided to perhaps try to guard the spawn point with the stationary AA that was  in the base. The result: I barely tickled the enemy aircraft that game in the range of the AA while they could perfectly  attack what was taking off or circlespam dance with a friendly jet for 3 min pretty close to the base.
    Earlier before the attack helicopter incident I decided to try the igla to see what I could do to some passing aircraft: I start locking on and the jet deploys ECM, so I wait out until the ECM effect passes and launch the missile... by the time the missile gets close his ECM had recharged os he uses it again to shake off the next missile and he is out of range now :)
    So the BF3 fighters were cleaning up all the enemy air assets and on the free time were firing rocket pods at some tank or soldier. The only one who could stop them was another jet of comparable skill.
    This is exactly the same situation I remember from the distant past that made me so critical of pilots that cannot be stopped by anything the ground can use.
    .
    In BFV we never had that powerful planes even at the worst of times. First of all the BF1/BFV planes cannot deflect AA thrown at them.
    I have reconsidered what you said and I am thinking that the AA needs a damage dropoff so that it does not create that scenario where a ju88 main becomes untouchable. We do not need immortal JU88/Blenheims. If the spawn AA that is meant to defend the base is hunting down planes halfway across the map or beyond then we have a problem.

    Makes sense now, and I fully agree with your post.
    In bf4 you have only one fixed auto aa that needs planes/helis to be spotted to work, and one maa available, this means 2 gadgets where fixed aa is useless but works as an air deterrent only for space above base spawn and infys with igla/stinger/aa mines. Plus vehicles with soflam but needs a 2 man work as a squad while soflam range is really small. Aside that you need 3 man work to down a semiaverage AP pilot that will jdam your squad to death. So you need in an ideal scenario 3 infys: one engi with jav has the longest range out of all lock ons/recon with pld and support with mp aps+ammo box. At the same time plane has defence system as well ECM/flares +audio and directional queues when locked.

    In BFV i wont count FF cause they are similar to manpads in BF4. Any assault can carry those, but at the same time assault is more powerful than his engi counterpart in BF4-has enough power to engage armour.
    So any map in BFV has many SAA'S WITH retar ded range and buffed damage 20%+(example Narvik CQ, 4 BASE SPAWN saa, one F flag, one E flag, one B flag and another one that can be built on top of water tower in between A and B flags), MAA(S) depending maps.

    Let's do some math. Bfv planes have no defence against ground threats aside fleeing and audio queues from SAA;s when you hear FF generally it is too late. Before this pos patch any SAA working in combo with one FF user can down any fighter with ease. In comparison with BF4 that game with lockons, there you need 3 infys working together!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Thank you DICE, for your logic, and for this pos.
    And for idea of teamwork.
    And for destroying further more possibly the worst game in BF franchise's history.
    I am glad we straightened that out. If there is a thing I seem to really suck at is putting my thought s properly in written speech.
    .
    I think I heard somewhere that most balance changes right now are made by looking at spreadsheets/graphs instead of actually playing experience.
    Oh CTE how I miss thee
  • MammiBoo
    414 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye said:
    MammiBoo said:
    Hawxxeye said:
    olavafar said:
    Hawxxeye said:
    On paper all the changes look amazing to me.
    .
    First of all the AA buff vs fighters returns us to the Fighter > bomber > AA >fighter balance. Ace-ish fighter pilots that cannot be touched from the ground have always been an issue in the BF games I played. (the situation described by Olavafar above is not an issue since they still won the round)
    .
    The "satellite flares" issue gets fixed so the flares have to be used at an altitude where the enemies can see them and counter them.
    .
    Several bugs finally get addressed including the godmode UK rockets.
    .
    .
    Sadly I do not see any mention of the bofors AA being available to the Germans as well

    A bit late on this one and pardon for not quoting also my text. The thing that did not come out very clearly in my post is that it is actually an issue in that situation. Yes, we won the round but that was not the point, nor really that the bomber went 50+ either (I realize I should not have mentioned that). The point is that the bombers + SAAs contributes to locking down a stalled round. I'm not sure the other team would be able to break out or not but in any case our bombers made it almost impossible for them and they had nothing that could threat the bombers. I like to win but I prefer to do it in a somewhat balanced round where some bad luck on how squads choose to run at the start should not decide the whole round.

    Rock-paper-scissors works well but here the scissors (fighters) always only make it half way through the paper (bomber) before they get destroyed by the rock (SAA). Mostly they can't even get close enough to cut at all. I shall admit I'm very biased here though because I almost only fly fighters and primary for taking out enemy planes. If I fly a bomber it is mostly for a single bomb run to take out a specific tank.

    It is not for BFV but I like the model where the spawn SAA cannot really be killed from air but also does not do very much damage to planes. Thus one can guard the airspace over spawn but wont quickly kill anything that get close to it (for example when pursuing an enemy). Like it worked in BF3 on some maps if I remember correctly.

    Now that you mention BF3 , I just installed BF3 for PC and tried a round of CQ on the firestorm map.
    At a point I decided to get in the attack helicopter and before I even got 20 meters off the ground BRRRRRT! A flanker jet gets nails the helicopter with the pods and the machinegun.

    So I decided to perhaps try to guard the spawn point with the stationary AA that was  in the base. The result: I barely tickled the enemy aircraft that game in the range of the AA while they could perfectly  attack what was taking off or circlespam dance with a friendly jet for 3 min pretty close to the base.
    Earlier before the attack helicopter incident I decided to try the igla to see what I could do to some passing aircraft: I start locking on and the jet deploys ECM, so I wait out until the ECM effect passes and launch the missile... by the time the missile gets close his ECM had recharged os he uses it again to shake off the next missile and he is out of range now :)
    So the BF3 fighters were cleaning up all the enemy air assets and on the free time were firing rocket pods at some tank or soldier. The only one who could stop them was another jet of comparable skill.
    This is exactly the same situation I remember from the distant past that made me so critical of pilots that cannot be stopped by anything the ground can use.
    .
    In BFV we never had that powerful planes even at the worst of times. First of all the BF1/BFV planes cannot deflect AA thrown at them.
    I have reconsidered what you said and I am thinking that the AA needs a damage dropoff so that it does not create that scenario where a ju88 main becomes untouchable. We do not need immortal JU88/Blenheims. If the spawn AA that is meant to defend the base is hunting down planes halfway across the map or beyond then we have a problem.

    Makes sense now, and I fully agree with your post.
    In bf4 you have only one fixed auto aa that needs planes/helis to be spotted to work, and one maa available, this means 2 gadgets where fixed aa is useless but works as an air deterrent only for space above base spawn and infys with igla/stinger/aa mines. Plus vehicles with soflam but needs a 2 man work as a squad while soflam range is really small. Aside that you need 3 man work to down a semiaverage AP pilot that will jdam your squad to death. So you need in an ideal scenario 3 infys: one engi with jav has the longest range out of all lock ons/recon with pld and support with mp aps+ammo box. At the same time plane has defence system as well ECM/flares +audio and directional queues when locked.

    In BFV i wont count FF cause they are similar to manpads in BF4. Any assault can carry those, but at the same time assault is more powerful than his engi counterpart in BF4-has enough power to engage armour.
    So any map in BFV has many SAA'S WITH retar ded range and buffed damage 20%+(example Narvik CQ, 4 BASE SPAWN saa, one F flag, one E flag, one B flag and another one that can be built on top of water tower in between A and B flags), MAA(S) depending maps.

    Let's do some math. Bfv planes have no defence against ground threats aside fleeing and audio queues from SAA;s when you hear FF generally it is too late. Before this pos patch any SAA working in combo with one FF user can down any fighter with ease. In comparison with BF4 that game with lockons, there you need 3 infys working together!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Thank you DICE, for your logic, and for this pos.
    And for idea of teamwork.
    And for destroying further more possibly the worst game in BF franchise's history.
    I am glad we straightened that out. If there is a thing I seem to really suck at is putting my thought s properly in written speech.
    .
    I think I heard somewhere that most balance changes right now are made by looking at spreadsheets/graphs instead of actually playing experience.
    Oh CTE how I miss thee
    Agreed and I also am bad at maths. In my example I forgot to count SAA at A flag. Oh well, even worse than I expected. 
  • GrizzGolf
    1394 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    I still cant kill anything as AA so I haven't noticed anything yet 
  • GigaBrainGamer
    33 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member

    TL;DR (for those of you who don't like to read para's)

    Here's the thing....

    In BF1 before the llya bomber was introduced, players we're infuriated with the original bomber constantly conducting strafe runs while stationary AA packed a little punch taking them out regardless assistance from other pilots. Thus, DICE patched to where stationary AA received a *slight* dmg buff to balance it out. Well, that didn't last long until the BF1 pilots rushed to the forums and complained about how strong AA is against planes and yes, the buff did warrant the AA was perfect to counter high flying bombers. Well, DICE decided not only to nerf the AA dmg but to introduce the llya bomber, 100x more deadly as the pilots can fly even HIGHER and just spam dropping bombs ALL. DAY. LONG. Well, this time, the AA got a slight range buff to counter the high flying bomber. So, for 2 years it was back and forth with pilots and AA buff/nerfs until we got what we got currently for BF1 which kinda works out still in 2020.

    BF4...oh boy. Don't get me started. Little Birds and Apache Attack Helo's...the MEGA amount of counters to these helo's have are ridiculous and they are very mobile especially the Little Bird. I can't count on my fingers and toes how many times I've encountered a Little Bird or variants of attack helo's I've came across that just go well over 100+ kills in matches. Why? They take little to no damage and when they do, they are too quick to flee the scene and be out of range of stingers or what not, plus, their counter measures take little time to regen for use anyway. Shoot 3-5 rounds of stingers at a Little Bird or Attack Helo, you'll be dead before you can even get a clean shot off weather you're in range or not. Use RPG's and "hope" you get a clean hit to disable main rudders or tail rudder to get another clean shot in and yes I have 1 shotted Little Birds up close. Even in 2020, go play BF4 and you will see the absurd amount of Little Bird sweats just farming kills over 100+. It's pretty sick, makes me not even want to play BF4 just for that reason.

    BFV...THIS game has the WORST back and forth buff / nerf to planes and AA in HISTORY of BF. In the beginning of BFV, ground AA was pretty decent in taking out air. Well, didn't take long (no surprise in BF anyway...) for pilots to run to DICE and complain they don't have Air Superiority due to AA being to strong. Well, the AA nerf came and the pilot rejoiced for many many many months to come with JU-88 bombs before ground AA received a slight buff against planes like the JU-888 (especially on Fjell). JU-88 also took it's share of a *cough* nerf too. Nevertheless, bombers and planes still continued their reign in the air. Japanese and American planes were introduced for Chapter 5 and they can 1 shot tanks w/ 500 lb bombs or 2 Rockets from JPN and US planes. Well, to mobile and stationary AA that did not set well AT ALL. Then DICE introduced the Fliegerfaust was and ground AA infantry we're extremely happy that finally DICE presumably balanced the AA vs Air War....wellllll, not exactly,  Again, Veteran and New pilots rushed to the forums knocking at DICE's door to nerf the 1 shot Fliegerfaust. And not only did they nerf it, they kept the stationary AA untouched (sigh). So, not only was the Fliegerfaust and AA nerf'd to oblivion regardless if people say "just have more ppl equip Fliegerfasut durrr…" That's not the principal of the matter. So, pilots can still 1 shot tanks with 500 lb bombs all day or 2x Rockets to a tank and that's *balanced* to them? Yea, no, there's NO justification to where Pilots CAN 1 shot tanks and ANY ground AA can't 1 shot planes. Oh boo-hoo, you can no longer get 60+ kills in a match with 5+ kills in your kill feed at a time now since DICE patched a 20% increased dmg to Ground AA and possible "stealth buffed" the Fliegerfasut to 1 shot planes. Well, pilots have been ruining the battlefield too long 1 shotting E V E R Y T H I N G. So, now you're back here complaining you don't have Air Superiority for over 4 months without a buff to any AA? Wow, life must be hard for you now.

    Extremely good pilots will know now when and where to strike tanks and infantry when they are the most vulnerable. God forbid *good* pilots need to think about their next move if they are not shot down by 10 Stationary AA Rounds (and yes, I've counted the times a planes was hit by AA and it took EXACTLY 10 hits to destroy them) or a couple of players wielding Fliegerfasut. Noob pilots, well, sorry, practice on the range before going into Multiplayer and get shot down easily because your situational awareness is not up to par. So, who are the majority of the complainers? The novice boot camp pilot who just finished the campaign and took a few spins in the practice range? Or the extreme MAVRICK and VIPER duo in BFV who aren't afraid of Stationary or Mobile AA that can still rack up 60 or 70+ kills a match while staring death in the face laughing at AA. My consensus is going to be the Novice to Intermediate pilot who cant for the life of them dodge wrenches that's being thrown at them but want to rack up their k/d farming skill. My bad for *possibly* 1 shotting you when you can 1 shot tanks with 500 lb bombs or 2x Rocket a tank. Balance...gee, what a concept. Funny how that works sometimes. You pilots still have a higher chance of multiple kills and high k/d farming, it's just now you have to be more cautious and knowing the map topography where Stationary AA turrets are. However, mobile AA is the main thing you need to worry about, aka Fliegerfaust.

  • Terminator000001
    1001 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    GrizzGolf wrote: »
    I still cant kill anything as AA so I haven't noticed anything yet 

    Watch me and my potato aim then. 🦆

  • Hawxxeye
    7570 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 14
    MammiBoo said:
    Hawxxeye said:
    MammiBoo said:
    Hawxxeye said:
    olavafar said:
    Hawxxeye said:
    On paper all the changes look amazing to me.
    .
    First of all the AA buff vs fighters returns us to the Fighter > bomber > AA >fighter balance. Ace-ish fighter pilots that cannot be touched from the ground have always been an issue in the BF games I played. (the situation described by Olavafar above is not an issue since they still won the round)
    .
    The "satellite flares" issue gets fixed so the flares have to be used at an altitude where the enemies can see them and counter them.
    .
    Several bugs finally get addressed including the godmode UK rockets.
    .
    .
    Sadly I do not see any mention of the bofors AA being available to the Germans as well

    A bit late on this one and pardon for not quoting also my text. The thing that did not come out very clearly in my post is that it is actually an issue in that situation. Yes, we won the round but that was not the point, nor really that the bomber went 50+ either (I realize I should not have mentioned that). The point is that the bombers + SAAs contributes to locking down a stalled round. I'm not sure the other team would be able to break out or not but in any case our bombers made it almost impossible for them and they had nothing that could threat the bombers. I like to win but I prefer to do it in a somewhat balanced round where some bad luck on how squads choose to run at the start should not decide the whole round.

    Rock-paper-scissors works well but here the scissors (fighters) always only make it half way through the paper (bomber) before they get destroyed by the rock (SAA). Mostly they can't even get close enough to cut at all. I shall admit I'm very biased here though because I almost only fly fighters and primary for taking out enemy planes. If I fly a bomber it is mostly for a single bomb run to take out a specific tank.

    It is not for BFV but I like the model where the spawn SAA cannot really be killed from air but also does not do very much damage to planes. Thus one can guard the airspace over spawn but wont quickly kill anything that get close to it (for example when pursuing an enemy). Like it worked in BF3 on some maps if I remember correctly.

    Now that you mention BF3 , I just installed BF3 for PC and tried a round of CQ on the firestorm map.
    At a point I decided to get in the attack helicopter and before I even got 20 meters off the ground BRRRRRT! A flanker jet gets nails the helicopter with the pods and the machinegun.

    So I decided to perhaps try to guard the spawn point with the stationary AA that was  in the base. The result: I barely tickled the enemy aircraft that game in the range of the AA while they could perfectly  attack what was taking off or circlespam dance with a friendly jet for 3 min pretty close to the base.
    Earlier before the attack helicopter incident I decided to try the igla to see what I could do to some passing aircraft: I start locking on and the jet deploys ECM, so I wait out until the ECM effect passes and launch the missile... by the time the missile gets close his ECM had recharged os he uses it again to shake off the next missile and he is out of range now :)
    So the BF3 fighters were cleaning up all the enemy air assets and on the free time were firing rocket pods at some tank or soldier. The only one who could stop them was another jet of comparable skill.
    This is exactly the same situation I remember from the distant past that made me so critical of pilots that cannot be stopped by anything the ground can use.
    .
    In BFV we never had that powerful planes even at the worst of times. First of all the BF1/BFV planes cannot deflect AA thrown at them.
    I have reconsidered what you said and I am thinking that the AA needs a damage dropoff so that it does not create that scenario where a ju88 main becomes untouchable. We do not need immortal JU88/Blenheims. If the spawn AA that is meant to defend the base is hunting down planes halfway across the map or beyond then we have a problem.

    Makes sense now, and I fully agree with your post.
    In bf4 you have only one fixed auto aa that needs planes/helis to be spotted to work, and one maa available, this means 2 gadgets where fixed aa is useless but works as an air deterrent only for space above base spawn and infys with igla/stinger/aa mines. Plus vehicles with soflam but needs a 2 man work as a squad while soflam range is really small. Aside that you need 3 man work to down a semiaverage AP pilot that will jdam your squad to death. So you need in an ideal scenario 3 infys: one engi with jav has the longest range out of all lock ons/recon with pld and support with mp aps+ammo box. At the same time plane has defence system as well ECM/flares +audio and directional queues when locked.

    In BFV i wont count FF cause they are similar to manpads in BF4. Any assault can carry those, but at the same time assault is more powerful than his engi counterpart in BF4-has enough power to engage armour.
    So any map in BFV has many SAA'S WITH retar ded range and buffed damage 20%+(example Narvik CQ, 4 BASE SPAWN saa, one F flag, one E flag, one B flag and another one that can be built on top of water tower in between A and B flags), MAA(S) depending maps.

    Let's do some math. Bfv planes have no defence against ground threats aside fleeing and audio queues from SAA;s when you hear FF generally it is too late. Before this pos patch any SAA working in combo with one FF user can down any fighter with ease. In comparison with BF4 that game with lockons, there you need 3 infys working together!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Thank you DICE, for your logic, and for this pos.
    And for idea of teamwork.
    And for destroying further more possibly the worst game in BF franchise's history.
    I am glad we straightened that out. If there is a thing I seem to really suck at is putting my thought s properly in written speech.
    .
    I think I heard somewhere that most balance changes right now are made by looking at spreadsheets/graphs instead of actually playing experience.
    Oh CTE how I miss thee
    Agreed and I also am bad at maths. In my example I forgot to count SAA at A flag. Oh well, even worse than I expected. 
    The  Alpha flag on Fjell can have up to 2 40mm bofors AA which along with the 1 bofors at the base means that anything hostile that flies close enough to Alpha would die horribly even before the patch.
  • VOLBANKER
    1712 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Guys, FF is not a guaranteed OHK now.
    I checked on multiple rounds on Fjell Conquest last night.
    Had many hits on planes where it was just the usual: Plane took some damage, but just flew onwards.
  • cashm0n3y08
    256 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    DukeSan27 wrote: »
    Well, well, well. How the tables have turned for ground against planes. 
    The MAA Tank is actually good now, fly straight on to it and you die. DICE finally acknowledged that this is the right design. 

    FF sounds OP, though I am not shedding any tears for Pilots though after the while of Planes one-shotting Tanks.

    Hope these changes last until BF6 arrives, will be only good for everyone. 

    Are you excited? You can camp in your tankie tank next to a resupply all game without having to worry about those big bad pilots killing you.
  • stallzer
    110 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    All I can say is poor plane people, my heart bleeds for you. I guess now you'll just have to settle for a kill & death of 60-10 instead of 55-2 in games. It also appears as if the planes were slowed down a tad? I will say it's fun again watching these planes drop like flies.
  • Celsi_GER
    798 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    DukeSan27 wrote: »
    Well, well, well. How the tables have turned for ground against planes. 
    The MAA Tank is actually good now, fly straight on to it and you die. DICE finally acknowledged that this is the right design. 

    FF sounds OP, though I am not shedding any tears for Pilots though after the while of Planes one-shotting Tanks.

    Hope these changes last until BF6 arrives, will be only good for everyone. 

    Are you excited? You can camp in your tankie tank next to a resupply all game without having to worry about those big bad pilots killing you.

    As if flying over a clothes line (resupply plane) or flying high alt circles at the far end of the map (repair) would be any more "honorable" than "camping" at a supply station.
  • olavafar
    2261 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    stallzer said:
    All I can say is poor plane people, my heart bleeds for you. I guess now you'll just have to settle for a kill & death of 60-10 instead of 55-2 in games. It also appears as if the planes were slowed down a tad? I will say it's fun again watching these planes drop like flies.
    Don't think you got it. AA was primarily buffed against fighters.

    Weakening the fighters is the path to the dark side.
    Weak fighters leads to strong bombers.
    Strong bombers leads to infinite farming.
    Infinite farming leads to suffering.


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