The balance changes that Operations NEEDS - Attackers will rarely win atm.

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RabNebula
235 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Medal of Honor Warfighter, Battlefield 1 Member
edited November 2016
I love the idea of Operations but it is terribly executed and needs big changes before it becomes a dead mode. Nobody wants to sign up to lose for the attacking team and whenever theres a chance its a switch to the defenders. Currently it seems that the Operations is very heavily favoured toward the defensive team for a few big reasons:
  • 1st off the attackers get 3 attempts to win over 2 to 3 maps of around 5 sections each map. The attackers have to win all the maps while defenders just have to shut them down 3 times. That means a defending team gets around 15 attempts with unlimited lives to shut down the attacking team with limited lives 3 times. DICE do some maths when you're making your game modes, it's a clear imbalance.
  • When the attackers are on their 2nd or 3rd attempt but they manage to accomplish a map progression, they no longer get a behemoth/train/dreadnought in the next map. So a team completes a map and DICE punish them making it even harder in their 3-15 attempts battle. More DICE logic.
  • It's annoying not being able to have an operations restart at the end. Quite often when you search then you get thrown in a game half way through so don't always get to experience the operation from fresh. It's especially frustrating when it puts into a game on the attacking team on their final battalion on the 1st map with very few tickets left.

Thats just a few reasons Operations needs big changes. Ways to change it but still be close to in keeping with the core concept?
  • Give attackers an extra batallion if they win a map.
  • Increase the size of the 3 batallions by about 80-90% but dont have them replenish any tickets for each sector.
  • Give attackers their train/behemoth/dreadnought when they progress maps.
  • Just make operations 1 map long and a playlist seeing as DICE clearly seem intent on killing Rush anyway (just 24 players???). That way it wouldn't matter as much when you join near the end of the attackers guaranteed fail.




Post edited by RabNebula on

Comments

  • Libertine79
    84 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    i agree that ops are borked atm. only have had wins on the defending side, never actually made it all the way through.
  • RabNebula
    235 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Medal of Honor Warfighter, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited October 2016
    i agree that ops are borked atm. only have had wins on the defending side, never actually made it all the way through.

    Yeh. I've never seen one win for attackers. 1 team I was on last night were really really terrible though. One of those games where people wait for planes to spawn just to fly to defend the objective and ditch out etc and crippling their team in doing so. We actually got to the final stage of Sinai!! I thought they did it on purpose as the attackers didn't have any really outstanding players or squads causing problems. Just defenders screwing themselves over.
  • velos85
    70 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    The AA guns need to respawn and defenders need more vehicles when the behemoth is out. Played BB yesterday, Airship just took out all the AA guns within a few minutes, leaving us nothing to use.
  • RabNebula
    235 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Medal of Honor Warfighter, Battlefield 1 Member
    velos85 wrote: »
    The AA guns need to respawn and defenders need more vehicles when the behemoth is out. Played BB yesterday, Airship just took out all the AA guns within a few minutes, leaving us nothing to use.

    Never had a problem with that as a defending team. You just need a couple of decent pilots up and an aa truck.

    What are your views on attackers always being on the losing side?
  • incapslap
    3513 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    First of all, the mode is supposed to be hard for the attackers (hopefully DICE comes out and clarifies we are right on this note) as it makes the game more intense and people will play harder. And secondly, people don't really know a lot of tactics yet. Many are new to the mode and don't even bother trying to defend a flag that has been captured. Squads need to defend the captured flag while others go and attack the second and third flags.

    It is a mode that requires good coordination and awareness. You may have to be the group that sits back at the flag to defend it rather than going for points at the next flag. The fact that hardly anyone knows how to do this probably wastes a whole battalion or more in a lot of games.

    The mode wouldn't be that great if it was easy to get all the way to the end. Hopefully if they make full rotations for the browser we will be playing as defenders after playing as attackers. That way everyone will know who had the better team.
  • Alcarin277
    77 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Yes I agree, Ops need additional balance, because 90% of the time defender wins....

    However I believe only 2 balances are required.

    1. If attacking team wins the map and superweapon (airship etc.) is up, carry it on to the next map (same hp though)
    2. If attacking team wins the map, they get 1 more battallion...

    And its fixed imo.
  • vVMr-GoodCatVv
    921 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member

    Personally find it easier to attack. I don't know which I have had more wins on, it just how I feel.
    I will say the bunkers on Monte Grappa are insanely difficult to take, so maybe some tweaks here and there are required
  • Catch3rz
    15 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Medal of Honor Warfighter, Battlefield 1 Member
    RabNebula wrote: »
    • Give attackers an extra batallion if they win a map.

    I agree with this, the attackers should get at least 1 additional wave if they make it through the map, this way you still have to work as a team cause from what i have seen we usually get to the next map with the last wave, it would be nice to have that 1 additional wave on the next map... i think the defenders would still have a good shot of winning while also increasing the attackers chances.

    However i did have a couple of wins as attackers, so it's not a big issue for me as i do love operations and it's probably my favorite game mode in BF1.
  • l-N-I-K-K-0-R-l
    62 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    incapslap wrote: »
    First of all, the mode is supposed to be hard for the attackers (hopefully DICE comes out and clarifies we are right on this note) as it makes the game more intense and people will play harder. And secondly, people don't really know a lot of tactics yet. Many are new to the mode and don't even bother trying to defend a flag that has been captured. Squads need to defend the captured flag while others go and attack the second and third flags.

    It is a mode that requires good coordination and awareness. You may have to be the group that sits back at the flag to defend it rather than going for points at the next flag. The fact that hardly anyone knows how to do this probably wastes a whole battalion or more in a lot of games.

    The mode wouldn't be that great if it was easy to get all the way to the end. Hopefully if they make full rotations for the browser we will be playing as defenders after playing as attackers. That way everyone will know who had the better team.

    i agree with you dude. I've won some of the hardest ones with attackers. The biggest problem i see when my attacking teams have lost was that there were too many nosebleed scouts on our team. Having one or two pick off snipers is great but more than that and you don't have enough attackers pushing the flags. People just don't know how to play. I also have seen full heavy tanks killing defenders but not getting on a flag. I am like...you know that basically does nothing right? take your 5 amrored allies and capture that ****!
  • Trixie_Lulamooon
    11 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    I've beaten all the operations as attackers multiple times and I beat Oil of Empires 5 times already, even when the defenders had the armored train on Suez and Sinia. Literally the only thing that needs to happen is more good A7V tankers and players more willing to cap the objectives. Theres nothing that needs to be changed in operations ATM.
  • Player_9jd47hui
    76 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    I think snipers should be limited on operations but not on conquest. Lots of snipers on the attacking side sitting in the back and not pushing flags with the rest of the team. They don't contribute anything by doing this because even if they kill someone that player spawns right back on their squad or runs back to the objective in just a few seconds... its not like the defending team loses tickets so what's the point(probably K/D)? I understand that everyone should be able to play how they want but it gets very annoying and makes me want to quit the operation when no one gives a **** about playing the mode properly.
  • RabNebula
    235 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Medal of Honor Warfighter, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited November 2016
    incapslap wrote: »
    First of all, the mode is supposed to be hard for the attackers (hopefully DICE comes out and clarifies we are right on this note) as it makes the game more intense and people will play harder. And secondly, people don't really know a lot of tactics yet. Many are new to the mode and don't even bother trying to defend a flag that has been captured. Squads need to defend the captured flag while others go and attack the second and third flags.

    It is a mode that requires good coordination and awareness. You may have to be the group that sits back at the flag to defend it rather than going for points at the next flag. The fact that hardly anyone knows how to do this probably wastes a whole battalion or more in a lot of games.

    The mode wouldn't be that great if it was easy to get all the way to the end. Hopefully if they make full rotations for the browser we will be playing as defenders after playing as attackers. That way everyone will know who had the better team.

    DICE won't come out and say that because it's ridiculous. Nobody in their right mind would agree that it should be that much harder for 1 side to achieve their goal over the other side. Its a matter of balance and Operations at the moment really does not have it. It's terrible and nobody will ever want to play on attackers eventually. If it stays like it is much longer then the mode will die before people have given it a real chance. Already know a lot of people who refuse to play the mode because of how imbalanced it is in favour of defenders. It's not fun when you know the result is going to be in favour of defenders 85% of the time at least.

    Never at any point did I say it should be easy for attackers to get to the end. This post is purely about getting the balance right.
  • Truffleshuffle03
    2267 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited November 2016
    The main problem with the attackers are they don't try to get on to points they sit back at the edges. I have been in 5 matches where we had them to the last point to finish the whole game but only a few ever rushed onto the point the rest never even attempted to get on to a point. You can't win if you dont try to take control of the point. Heck on 1 round I was the only person to try and take the last point we needed to win the whole thing and I had it down to about 5 seconds before it was completely capped and I get naded and they over take the point and I kept trying to get on the point aging everyone else sat back and did nothing 90% of the team was staying at b trying to kill the snipers in their spawn. It's just like every other objective based game mode you have to get on objectives to win.
  • Lykosia
    204 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Wait. Some Operations have 3 maps? I've never seen attackers get past the second one, so I didn't even know that. I always assumed all Operations had only 2, because that would make it in theory a possibility for attackers to win, but 3?
  • Truffleshuffle03
    2267 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    RabNebula wrote: »
    incapslap wrote: »
    First of all, the mode is supposed to be hard for the attackers (hopefully DICE comes out and clarifies we are right on this note) as it makes the game more intense and people will play harder. And secondly, people don't really know a lot of tactics yet. Many are new to the mode and don't even bother trying to defend a flag that has been captured. Squads need to defend the captured flag while others go and attack the second and third flags.

    It is a mode that requires good coordination and awareness. You may have to be the group that sits back at the flag to defend it rather than going for points at the next flag. The fact that hardly anyone knows how to do this probably wastes a whole battalion or more in a lot of games.

    The mode wouldn't be that great if it was easy to get all the way to the end. Hopefully if they make full rotations for the browser we will be playing as defenders after playing as attackers. That way everyone will know who had the better team.

    DICE won't come out and say that because it's ridiculous. Nobody in their right mind would agree that it should be that much harder for 1 side to achieve their goal over the other side. Its a matter of balance and Operations at the moment really does not have it. It's terrible and nobody will ever want to play on attackers eventually. If it stays like it is much longer then the mode will die before people have given it a real chance. Already know a lot of people who refuse to play the mode because of how imbalanced it is in favour of defenders. It's not fun when you know the result is going to be in favour of defenders 85% of the time at least.

    Never at any point did I say it should be easy for attackers to get to the end. This post is purely about getting the balance right.

    The main problem is people think they can sit back you have to attack the points and get on them you can't have most of the team out on the edges and not on the points and really think you will win.
  • incapslap
    3513 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    RabNebula wrote: »
    incapslap wrote: »
    First of all, the mode is supposed to be hard for the attackers (hopefully DICE comes out and clarifies we are right on this note) as it makes the game more intense and people will play harder. And secondly, people don't really know a lot of tactics yet. Many are new to the mode and don't even bother trying to defend a flag that has been captured. Squads need to defend the captured flag while others go and attack the second and third flags.

    It is a mode that requires good coordination and awareness. You may have to be the group that sits back at the flag to defend it rather than going for points at the next flag. The fact that hardly anyone knows how to do this probably wastes a whole battalion or more in a lot of games.

    The mode wouldn't be that great if it was easy to get all the way to the end. Hopefully if they make full rotations for the browser we will be playing as defenders after playing as attackers. That way everyone will know who had the better team.

    DICE won't come out and say that because it's ridiculous. Nobody in their right mind would agree that it should be that much harder for 1 side to achieve their goal over the other side. Its a matter of balance and Operations at the moment really does not have it. It's terrible and nobody will ever want to play on attackers eventually. If it stays like it is much longer then the mode will die before people have given it a real chance. Already know a lot of people who refuse to play the mode because of how imbalanced it is in favour of defenders. It's not fun when you know the result is going to be in favour of defenders 85% of the time at least.

    Never at any point did I say it should be easy for attackers to get to the end. This post is purely about getting the balance right.

    It certainly isn't ridiculous. Do you not see how being difficult for the attackers can increase the epic feel of the mode and increase the effort of the teams?

    It's not a mirror mode like the majority of shooters, like I said above it is more like Left 4 Dead where much of the competitive nature of the game is in how far you get rather than winning the map.

    And do you not see that the mode is harder for the defenders, only in a different way? The defenders have to deal with different terrain, the fact that they cannot always know where the enemy is coming from, and also that they are severely outnumbered in terms of vehicles.

    Thus, the problem with balancing the game as 50/50 on the last sector is that there is more likely to be skewed games/results because of defenders having to play much more passively, the game will always be more enjoyable for the attackers, and you cannot balance the game 50/50 for all skill levels.

    We need actual results, not the biased opinions that it is 85% chance of a win for the defenders. It is probably around 70%, but even there it has to be considered that the mode is new and very few people know how to play through it strategically. Heck, hardly anyone ever defends the airship from planes or shoots at the AA. And as I have already said, the inability to think through strategies for taking the three-flag sectors can easily cost a team a whole battalion.

    If it ends up being 60/40 for the defenders in casual games then it will probably be 40/60 in competitive games. That is also something that will have to be considered, because balancing the mode based on the opinions of people who do not know what they're doing can ruin the mode for those who do.

    There are larger issues at play than simply, 'too hard for my side.'
  • Youratv
    805 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited November 2016
    I just got the game and as an attacker yesterday we got a couple sectors and then we came to a fortress. I'm not really sure what map. I tried to flank left and there was a door that if i went up to that had an open icon and it was locked then i tried to flank around to the extreme left only to be met with knee high barbwire ( like that would stop me) and eventually out of bounds. Our only choice was to try to rush the right flank into a narrow passage where we were ripe for the picking. That's my only real observation so far. Operations is awesome. That is all.
  • DominicO65
    512 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2016
    It's funny, my Operations experience has been literally the opposite. I prefer attacking as I get to set the pace and angle of my engagements instead of simply reacting to the enemy.
    My win rate is much higher when I attack (not to mention my K/D). My friends and I were even saying the attacking team has it easy, getting the behemoth after just 1 battalion loss instead of getting it only with their final battalion.
  • DominicO65
    512 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 2016
    Alcarin277 wrote: »
    Yes I agree, Ops need additional balance, because 90% of the time defender wins....

    However I believe only 2 balances are required.

    1. If attacking team wins the map and superweapon (airship etc.) is up, carry it on to the next map (same hp though)
    2. If attacking team wins the map, they get 1 more battallion...

    And its fixed imo.

    I like your 1st suggestion, but won't the 2nd one be extremely unfair if the attacking team steamrolls the 1st map (which happens a lot in my experience).
  • RabNebula
    235 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Medal of Honor Warfighter, Battlefield 1 Member
    Youratv wrote: »
    I just got the game and as an attacker yesterday we got a couple sectors and then we came to a fortress. I'm not really sure what map. I tried to flank left and there was a door that if i went up to that had an open icon and it was locked then i tried to flank around to the extreme left only to be met with knee high barbwire ( like that would stop me) and eventually out of bounds. Our only choice was to try to rush the right flank into a narrow passage where we were ripe for the picking. That's my only real observation so far. Operations is awesome. That is all.

    Yup. You've definitely got lots to learn. You can blow those doors open. Eventually after a few games you'll see how imbalanced operations is. It's a mode with lots of potential but they need to make some big changes really.
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