Hit Detection

Comments

  • KingTolapsium
    5491 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    @mischkag

    What is different from bf4 to bf1?

    We had bullets rejected when over 300ms in the past title, with the same server situation. Why has this window more than tripled? It really doesn't feel good from the receiving end.
  • mmarkweII
    2919 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    @mischkag

    What is different from bf4 to bf1?

    We had bullets rejected when over 300ms in the past title, with the same server situation. Why has this window more than tripled? It really doesn't feel good from the receiving end.

    TCR / TRC? I sure hope not.
  • RichardPye843
    206 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    I thank you guys for posting all these productive suggestions and even more so videos.
    It sucks that i am very confident to have fixed/improved most of the issues already. Unfortunately due to the complex nature of the changes it wont make it into the upcoming patch. I know this sucks, but even if u may think it cannot get worse, i need to make sure none of it breaks anything as it operates on the heart of the bullet detection and netcode.
    So as most of you know correctly, the extrapolation offset is pretty much some sort of network compensation for your connection. U may call it additional lag to ensure smooth gameplay. However, there are bugs and as u could clearly see in the videos, if it turns red things will be really behind and all these soldiers from nowhere, sudden death, poor hit detection issues start to happen. I do believe i have fixed it. I will let u know once we have a CTE up where it should be live for feedback.
    Yes it would be nice to have the NetGraph less intrusive on the screen, but i need to be able to read it when posted on youtube, otherwise it is incomplete information and prevents me from guessing what the root cause is. Maybe i could provide some minimal option there.
    It may not sound obvious, but one of the root causes of the netcode trouble u see is actually not the netcode and rather the framerate stalls the game unfortunately can have. I know u may not care, but this correlation should be much improved right now and these extraordinary extrapolation spikes shouldnt happen any longer. But again, i am sorry this is not live for some time.
    The bandwidth we need in the game is rather small. It can theoretically peak to about 500kbit but for the most part you should see between 100..200kbit. Thats not a lot. So latency and ping variation is all that matters. And this brings us back to the issue with the regions. Dont u think i would not also love to just support <100ms ping? I suggested internally to provide servers with ping/region locks. It is acknowledged but the entire matchmaking / server infrastructure is not a simple system you can just add a ping cap to. I hope we will be able to make strides in that area to once and for all provide what you ask for.
    Again, it is not in any way that EA tries to save money. Quite the opposite. But it needs to be supported on the operational side, server centers, UI, client, Matchmaking, server...
    Still, i do believe that if i can make the game not appealing for higher pings, that at least ppl will stop deliberately joining out of region and ease the problem.
    The server does reject when you have ping above 1s. I know this is way too much. However, as long as you are able to join the game with a ridiculous ping, i need to support this.
    As much as i would love to put some low caps on all of this, my first concern is to fix all the issues and emphasize internally that we need these ping caps. I will also make sure the game becomes less appealing to high pingers. I am sorry if i have missed some notes here in the forum, there was so much input from you guys but like some other dude some day suggested: Now go back to work. Thats what i will do.

    Great and very much appreciative response. Though unfortunate that we may not see any improvements in the next patch I understand the complexity of it. HOPEFULLY we can by the next one whenever that may be. I am willing to be patient and stick with the game until it gets fixed and that is simply thanks to your responses. The peace of mind knowing that you guys are at least trying to solve our issues gives me confidence to just grit and bare my frustrations until that day over the horizon that the game is a much more smoother experience. I REALLY enjoy the game and have an absolute blast playing it the times the game is working properly for me. For example just last night I found myself laughing hard as I battled two tanks at the same time while I was in mine after winning several battles. The tension was high as I manuvered in and out between buildings dropping smoke to mask my positions while I weaved in and out of cover as I hit each one of them giving my team mates enough time to get in there and throw some anti-tank greandes to help me out. What made it so stressful was I can tell their squad was on comms coordinating together and I wasnt (though I always play with a mic but it seems no else does) as they tried to box me in. What made it so funny was EVERY time they had a chance for a tank to spawn in they would come after me and the battle would start all over again. I actually felt their frustration trying to put a stop to my destruction of their team. You can ONLY have that type of fun in a Battlefield game!!!
  • VBALL_MVP
    6177 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    @mischkag

    What is different from bf4 to bf1?

    We had bullets rejected when over 300ms in the past title, with the same server situation. Why has this window more than tripled? It really doesn't feel good from the receiving end.

    Not just that, why does it contradict one of your other colleagues who stated it was less than BF4. I believe it was Ali who said it was now 150ms in BF1.
  • denjoga
    607 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    It makes me a little uneasy when you say, "I'm doing this", "I fixed that", "I changed this"... etc.
    Are you really the only person working on this?
    Granted, I know nothing about how games are developed, but I would have thought that at least a small team of devs would be working on stuff like this (netcode, lag comp, hit reg, etc...).
    Seems like a very big job for just one guy.
    But, what do I know? (nothing :wink: )
  • VBALL_MVP
    6177 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    denjoga wrote: »
    It makes me a little uneasy when you say, "I'm doing this", "I fixed that", "I changed this"... etc.
    Are you really the only person working on this?
    Granted, I know nothing about how games are developed, but I would have thought that at least a small team of devs would be working on stuff like this (netcode, lag comp, hit reg, etc...).
    Seems like a very big job for just one guy.
    But, what do I know? (nothing :wink: )

    I believe there is a team.
  • stuwooster
    279 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    I thank you guys for posting all these productive suggestions and even more so videos.
    It sucks that i am very confident to have fixed/improved most of the issues already. Unfortunately due to the complex nature of the changes it wont make it into the upcoming patch. I know this sucks, but even if u may think it cannot get worse, i need to make sure none of it breaks anything as it operates on the heart of the bullet detection and netcode.
    So as most of you know correctly, the extrapolation offset is pretty much some sort of network compensation for your connection. U may call it additional lag to ensure smooth gameplay. However, there are bugs and as u could clearly see in the videos, if it turns red things will be really behind and all these soldiers from nowhere, sudden death, poor hit detection issues start to happen. I do believe i have fixed it. I will let u know once we have a CTE up where it should be live for feedback.
    Yes it would be nice to have the NetGraph less intrusive on the screen, but i need to be able to read it when posted on youtube, otherwise it is incomplete information and prevents me from guessing what the root cause is. Maybe i could provide some minimal option there.
    It may not sound obvious, but one of the root causes of the netcode trouble u see is actually not the netcode and rather the framerate stalls the game unfortunately can have. I know u may not care, but this correlation should be much improved right now and these extraordinary extrapolation spikes shouldnt happen any longer. But again, i am sorry this is not live for some time.
    The bandwidth we need in the game is rather small. It can theoretically peak to about 500kbit but for the most part you should see between 100..200kbit. Thats not a lot. So latency and ping variation is all that matters. And this brings us back to the issue with the regions. Dont u think i would not also love to just support <100ms ping? I suggested internally to provide servers with ping/region locks. It is acknowledged but the entire matchmaking / server infrastructure is not a simple system you can just add a ping cap to. I hope we will be able to make strides in that area to once and for all provide what you ask for.
    Again, it is not in any way that EA tries to save money. Quite the opposite. But it needs to be supported on the operational side, server centers, UI, client, Matchmaking, server...
    Still, i do believe that if i can make the game not appealing for higher pings, that at least ppl will stop deliberately joining out of region and ease the problem.
    The server does reject when you have ping above 1s. I know this is way too much. However, as long as you are able to join the game with a ridiculous ping, i need to support this.
    As much as i would love to put some low caps on all of this, my first concern is to fix all the issues and emphasize internally that we need these ping caps. I will also make sure the game becomes less appealing to high pingers. I am sorry if i have missed some notes here in the forum, there was so much input from you guys but like some other dude some day suggested: Now go back to work. Thats what i will do.

    Dude, it is really awesome that you are giving out more technical information on the physical limitations behind what is trying to be achieved and i, and i am sure many others really appreciate it, it really helps for people to know that complaints are being listened to and that there is efforts being made to improve upon the game and not just the blanket silence that there has been in the past.
    Personally i will be paying for premium when CTE comes out just so i can be involved in the process of helping to make the game better for everyone.
    I realise you have a tough job to do and commenting on the forums is probably not in your job description, so, thanks again and keep up the good work!
  • VBALL_MVP
    6177 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    Thx guys. Yes of course there is a big team behind BF1 live support and future fixes/improvements/expansion packs. But we also have experts and ownership for certain aspects of the game. That one here happens to be mine. We may be able to squeeze some improvements into the upcoming patch, fingers crossed. The bigger ones will have to wait a bit longer though.
    The 300 ms stuff is basically a restriction on high pingers to enforce some sort of leading their shot. But the truth is that it does not make a meaningful difference as of yet. There are some ideas to change that.
    I would really appreciate the participation on CTE. This will help making meaningful changes in a real environment. I will let u know once it is up.
    As far as the menu speed goes. Its true that this is a bit slow. I will see if we can address that.

    I love to participate in CTE....As long as you can convince Sony to allow it on PS4.
  • jdbelcher1998
    587 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    VBALL_MVP wrote: »
    I love to participate in CTE....As long as you can convince Sony to allow it on PS4.
    PLEASE yes.

  • juhmu
    224 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    I think one reason why PS4 dont have CTE is servers and software? You need certificate from sony to update PS4 software and it takes time,when on Xbox you can update software without any problemes. Thanks to our preview program and azure servers + Directx 12 ;) I have one question? Are we finally using azure servers for xbox one multiplayer or is there reason not to use because those servers will reduce latency between players?
  • spuitpoepertjie
    71 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Easily the worst hit detection I've ever experienced. Seriously bad.
  • lizzard
    985 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    Thx guys. Yes of course there is a big team behind BF1 live support and future fixes/improvements/expansion packs. But we also have experts and ownership for certain aspects of the game. That one here happens to be mine. We may be able to squeeze some improvements into the upcoming patch, fingers crossed. The bigger ones will have to wait a bit longer though.
    The 300 ms stuff is basically a restriction on high pingers to enforce some sort of leading their shot. But the truth is that it does not make a meaningful difference as of yet. There are some ideas to change that.
    I would really appreciate the participation on CTE. This will help making meaningful changes in a real environment. I will let u know once it is up.
    As far as the menu speed goes. Its true that this is a bit slow. I will see if we can address that.

    Thanks for your efforts to try and balance /solve those issues.

    I can still not find a predictable way of telling when the fps drops /sluggishness is going to happen in a game.

    Played a couple of hours to night.
    Full squad of friends.
    Four Swedish guys and one from UK.

    First game after 5 minutes two started to complain about sluggishness. Not being able to kill players in a predictable way.
    Noticed the sluggish aim me to, but no nauseating fps drops.
    But it was pure struggle to kill enemies.
    Guys strafing superfast left to right back and forth, like the server couldnt make up where to place the character.

    Result =Devastating loss by 500 tikets.

    Ping was fine for al of us. No package loss.
    Servtick 19-22ms
    Extr 30-35
    The blue one said 0.9. (dont remember what that one is)

    Change to new server.
    A round that was more playabe
    And had much less sluggishness, and more predictable kills.

    Ping still fine and no package loss.
    The graph showed.
    Servtick 15-17ms.
    Extr 19-25.
    Blue one 0.0 I think.

    The one guy playing at soldier sensitivity 40. Did not notice any fps drops or sluggishness.
    On a regular ps4.

    Half the squad droped of. Three of us played one last round. The server was then halfway populated.
    Aim was more smoth. No noticeable fps drops.
    Killing enemies was easy Street for me. Kill confirms and hitmarkers almost before the bullets hit enemies!
    The two other friends could not kill anyone almost. And continued to have a really bad experience.

    Its mind-boggling really! How can it feel so different? How can a game turn from only getting smal damage delivery on players. And dying almost instantly.
    To almost feel like your invincible. On the same server and the same game, using the same gun!?


    As a side note.
    A way to enable/disable the netgraph, whit a quick button. Would be nice. Maybe like pressing l3 r3 at the same time? That way it would be easier to turn on and of.

    The best thing would be to have the Graph as a line on the bottom of the screen. The numbers and names side by side each other. So it didnt cover such a big area of the screen.
  • diagoro
    1592 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    lizzard wrote: »
    mischkag wrote: »
    Thx guys. Yes of course there is a big team behind BF1 live support and future fixes/improvements/expansion packs. But we also have experts and ownership for certain aspects of the game. That one here happens to be mine. We may be able to squeeze some improvements into the upcoming patch, fingers crossed. The bigger ones will have to wait a bit longer though.
    The 300 ms stuff is basically a restriction on high pingers to enforce some sort of leading their shot. But the truth is that it does not make a meaningful difference as of yet. There are some ideas to change that.
    I would really appreciate the participation on CTE. This will help making meaningful changes in a real environment. I will let u know once it is up.
    As far as the menu speed goes. Its true that this is a bit slow. I will see if we can address that.

    Thanks for your efforts to try and balance /solve those issues.

    I can still not find a predictable way of telling when the fps drops /sluggishness is going to happen in a game.

    Played a couple of hours to night.
    Full squad of friends.
    Four Swedish guys and one from UK.

    First game after 5 minutes two started to complain about sluggishness. Not being able to kill players in a predictable way.
    Noticed the sluggish aim me to, but no nauseating fps drops.
    But it was pure struggle to kill enemies.
    Guys strafing superfast left to right back and forth, like the server couldnt make up where to place the character.

    Result =Devastating loss by 500 tikets.

    Ping was fine for al of us. No package loss.
    Servtick 19-22ms
    Extr 30-35
    The blue one said 0.9. (dont remember what that one is)

    Change to new server.
    A round that was more playabe
    And had much less sluggishness, and more predictable kills.

    Ping still fine and no package loss.
    The graph showed.
    Servtick 15-17ms.
    Extr 19-25.
    Blue one 0.0 I think.

    The one guy playing at soldier sensitivity 40. Did not notice any fps drops or sluggishness.
    On a regular ps4.

    Half the squad droped of. Three of us played one last round. The server was then halfway populated.
    Aim was more smoth. No noticeable fps drops.
    Killing enemies was easy Street for me. Kill confirms and hitmarkers almost before the bullets hit enemies!
    The two other friends could not kill anyone almost. And continued to have a really bad experience.

    Its mind-boggling really! How can it feel so different? How can a game turn from only getting smal damage delivery on players. And dying almost instantly.
    To almost feel like your invincible. On the same server and the same game, using the same gun!?


    As a side note.
    A way to enable/disable the netgraph, whit a quick button. Would be nice. Maybe like pressing l3 r3 at the same time? That way it would be easier to turn on and of.

    The best thing would be to have the Graph as a line on the bottom of the screen. The numbers and names side by side each other. So it didnt cover such a big area of the screen.

    The game feels immensely doffered from just minor regional shifts. I noted earlier, I'm in California, can't play US east, the difference is clear quickly. Sounds like it's the same in Europe.

    Which is a huge shame. With the above being true, I'm locked out of playing with many friends because of regional differences. I'm also prohibite from playing any game that forces a quick match, like operations (which I haven't touched in a month because of the pain).

    I'm glad we have the browser for conquest, or else I would have stopped playing after a few weeks. Can't believe removing it was seriously considered.
  • KingTolapsium
    5491 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited January 2017
    mischkag wrote: »
    Most people here in the forums are asking for region and ping locks. You essentially ask for the opposite, am I right? I guess the right direction is really having a bunch of servers region/ping locked and the others should be open and labelled as 'International' or so.

    That sounds pretty good, any guess to what that ping limit might be?
  • diagoro
    1592 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    Most people here in the forums are asking for region and ping locks. You essentially ask for the opposite, am I right? I guess the right direction is really having a bunch of servers region/ping locked and the others should be open and labelled as 'International' or so.

    Perhaps I'm lamenting how difficult it is to play a balanced game with friends....in 2017. Seems like a ping lock would be better, allowing for cross regional play. 'intl' servers,as well as rentals, could accommodate others
  • VBALL_MVP
    6177 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited January 2017
    juhmu wrote: »
    I think one reason why PS4 dont have CTE is servers and software? You need certificate from sony to update PS4 software and it takes time,when on Xbox you can update software without any problemes. Thanks to our preview program and azure servers + Directx 12 ;) I have one question? Are we finally using azure servers for xbox one multiplayer or is there reason not to use because those servers will reduce latency between players?

    What makes you think they are on azure servers. Especially when DICE stated they control all servers on ALL platforms.

    Have you traced the traffic?
  • mmarkweII
    2919 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    juhmu wrote: »
    I think one reason why PS4 dont have CTE is servers and software? You need certificate from sony to update PS4 software and it takes time,when on Xbox you can update software without any problemes. Thanks to our preview program and azure servers + Directx 12 ;) I have one question? Are we finally using azure servers for xbox one multiplayer or is there reason not to use because those servers will reduce latency between players?

    Stahp! Azure servers and software have nothing to do with whether or not the ps4 will be included in the CTE. Permission comes directly from Sony / MS. That's it. In BF4, MS allowed for it, but it took a lot of time for it to happen, while Sony said no.
  • stuwooster
    279 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    Most people here in the forums are asking for region and ping locks. You essentially ask for the opposite, am I right? I guess the right direction is really having a bunch of servers region/ping locked and the others should be open and labelled as 'International' or so.

    As i have said before, i think a limited amount of <100ms ping locked servers would be best, i can still play us east servers at around 80ms or so from EU.
    If those servers are constantly full then bring more online to account for demand.
    Would it be possible to make it so that client side the server browser tracks average latency from the last couple of games and then just won't show ping locked servers that you don't qualify for/ so i would see EU, US East and maybe west, But not Africa Oceania ping locked servers.
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