Hit Detection

Comments

  • SupremeEpidemic
    412 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    Thanks for the input and videos, very useful. @der_Metatron: So what I believe happens is the following: I do believe you actually did damage to the player coming arround the corner(on your client). However, on his client, he may have killed you before your shot got off on his end depending on both of your latencies. Now what happens is, that in favor of the low pingers, whoever kills first, wins and the damage from the player who died, is disregarded. This is to lower the double kill events and prevent late damage application from high pingers. Of course, we could add some time margin here and allow for a double kill/damage within a certain amount of time (time between the kill and your damage events). That is something I would really like your opinion on.
    We did plan to have 60Hz servers for consoles too. But the client performance was not where we needed it to be to run 60 Hz simulation ticks, even for 32 players. This may be something we can achieve next year, but i am not sure about it. 45 Hz dont work so well as all weapons are tuned for multiples of 30Hz and the bullet distribution is not quite the same then.
    I will check the claim of server performance being affected by high pingers/players with high packet loss and/or ping variance. I could not verify that so far, but will look into it.
    Also, the suppression is affecting the aiming ability as well as bullet spread. The latter may be perceived as poor hit detection. I do blieve this is an area where we could improve the communication to the player.
    I dont think we can simply lock the ping for official servers. There are friend invites and we do not cover all regions. We are looking into improving Matchmaking and getting it better, but is is not an easy process. In an ideal world, i'd love to just have players <50ping. Unfortunately that is not the reality.
    The erradic movement for high pingers is something i hope i can address.

    Nice timely response, now get to work. ;)
  • Indigology
    392 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Ive noticed this big time with the Laurence of Arabia smle, not so much with other weapons. I have a clip of me shooting an afk enemy from 10m away, 5 times, no hit markers. :b
  • mischkag
    214 postsMember, Developer DICE
    Roger that
  • SupremeEpidemic
    412 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    Thank you. I am trying to address anything 'netcode' or hit reaction related. I am still trying to figure out whats the best way to participate in the forums (here, reddit, twitter). I feel like that you players are actually doing a much better job as long as you feel that you are heard and your concerns are answered and tried to get addressed. I do have to read often thru hate and frustration. But i am a gamer too, i get it.

    Now we are getting somewhere. Thanks.
  • slippersLacKiN
    38 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Don´t get me wrong, it is the best BF Game since BC2 and I like it a lot, the overall technical experience is pretty good. And I really appreciate the time you take to answer here. Also it is awesome to hear, that you are willing to make improvements to this great game.

    I made small clip last night wich sums it up pretty good I guess
    https://account.xbox.com/de-de/gameclip/dee54156-7a6e-44b8-a541-1c89aed613ff?gamerTag=der Metatron&amp;scid=72010100-7d7f-4105-b34e-3ec552a4c121

    The interesting Part is starting at 00:18, before that it is **** aim on my account.

    Hunter Model 10 close range Hip fire, that usually is doing the Trick. Enemy gets around the corner, I shoot first (the Animation is there), the shot is a llittle bit off center, but at least should generate some Hit Markers. I am one shotted, due to not being on full Health (wich is fine). Killcam shows that the enemy has still 100 % and THAT should be not possible

    For me it does not look like problems with damage calculation, rather it looks like he was way more to the left from my point of view. I only cann guess that this had something to do with his client to Server connection wich was not able to send my Client the correct data in time.

    I only play on EU Servers and I bet if the rentals Servers had any chance of blocking High Pingers or OOR Players the community would appreciate that.

    As soon as that player left the game "Hit detection" was spot on again.

    I'm sorry but the first person you tried to kill, you didn't even hit him. So you should not of had any hit markers there. The second encounter, yeah you should have got him.
  • oJU5T1No
    901 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    Thanks for the input and videos, very useful. @der_Metatron: So what I believe happens is the following: I do believe you actually did damage to the player coming arround the corner(on your client). However, on his client, he may have killed you before your shot got off on his end depending on both of your latencies. Now what happens is, that in favor of the low pingers, whoever kills first, wins and the damage from the player who died, is disregarded. This is to lower the double kill events and prevent late damage application from high pingers. Of course, we could add some time margin here and allow for a double kill/damage within a certain amount of time (time between the kill and your damage events). That is something I would really like your opinion on.

    For me it is fine as is the delay is already enough it's already annoying enough the player who I just killed corpse throwing a grenade at me.
    mischkag wrote: »
    We did plan to have 60Hz servers for consoles too. But the client performance was not where we needed it to be to run 60 Hz simulation ticks, even for 32 players. This may be something we can achieve next year, but i am not sure about it. 45 Hz dont work so well as all weapons are tuned for multiples of 30Hz and the bullet distribution is not quite the same then.
    I will check the claim of server performance being affected by high pingers/players with high packet loss and/or ping variance. I could not verify that so far, but will look into it.
    Also, the suppression is affecting the aiming ability as well as bullet spread. The latter may be perceived as poor hit detection. I do blieve this is an area where we could improve the communication to the player.
    I dont think we can simply lock the ping for official servers. There are friend invites and we do not cover all regions. We are looking into improving Matchmaking and getting it better, but is is not an easy process. In an ideal world, i'd love to just have players <50ping. Unfortunately that is not the reality.
    The erradic movement for high pingers is something i hope i can address.

    In some cases it could be the bullet spread I can clearly see the bullet spread when using an lmg the tracers spreading around the guy i'm shooting at it works the opposite way for me masking any hit detection issues. When using the dmrs and trying to be more accurate you can clearly see the projectile hit the other playing and seemingly pass straight though there torso dealing no damage with no hitmaker.
    Its most noticeable in a tank because the projectile is much easier to see and follow and theres splash damage you can see the way damage is dealt isn't quite right for example I have fired a shell at 2 players who spawned together the shell landed pretty much on 1 guys foot he took 70 damage the guy 3 metres away from where the shell landed dies instantly from 100 health to the splash damage I get this all the time in a tank I can't kill some players directly hitting them yet other players die from full health when the shell lands a couple of metres near them.
    Its very noticeable aswell when I use the mondragon storm Its damage is 40-35 so should always be a 3 hit kill at any range even with the 0.96x Multipliers yet sometimes it takes me 4 shots with hitmarkers to kill some players.
    Also the game can get quite out of sync I will instantly die to what feels like 1 shot from a smg somewhat 30-40 metres away, I know on his screen the player probley fired at least half a mag at me and hit me the 6-7 times for a kill but for some reason the damage stacks and hits me in 1 lump opposed to each shot hitting me individually on my side.
    mischkag wrote: »
    Thank you. I am trying to address anything 'netcode' or hit reaction related. I am still trying to figure out whats the best way to participate in the forums (here, reddit, twitter). I feel like that you players are actually doing a much better job as long as you feel that you are heard and your concerns are answered and tried to get addressed. I do have to read often thru hate and frustration. But i am a gamer too, i get it.

    Here since this is the official forum and where most players seem to post there issues and feedback, it would be nice if other devs got involved aswell theres loads of threads regarding weapon balance on the main forum it would help alot if the dev responsible responded and took note of the issues the same way you are.

  • der_Metatron
    43 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2016
    I'm sorry but the first person you tried to kill, you didn't even hit him. So you should not of had any hit markers there. The second encounter, yeah you should have got him.

    I am totally aware that the first was not hit properly (Bad aim on my side) however that is a shotgun so the pellet would still hit with minimal damage. Wich it dif, I would never expect getting 1HK on that one.

  • GoldenWrench67
    323 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    Thank you. I am trying to address anything 'netcode' or hit reaction related. I am still trying to figure out whats the best way to participate in the forums (here, reddit, twitter). I feel like that you players are actually doing a much better job as long as you feel that you are heard and your concerns are answered and tried to get addressed. I do have to read often thru hate and frustration. But i am a gamer too, i get it.

    As a long time BF player, it's encouraging to see the Devs interest again. I haven't seen a DICE dev take an active interest since Gordon Vandyke before he left at the end of BFBC2.

    I see people screaming about balance, but how can you balance a weapon when packet loss makes your bullets disappear before they hit the enemy?

    High ping has been an issue as long as I've been playing on line.
  • GyposEyelash
    61 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    The problem is that a generally smooth game also comes along with a delay in response. Imagine everybody gets a significant delay in movements to counter lags. Whenever somebody hits you, you will get hit very much delayed and the hit around corner issues happen. So it is a fine balance. It mainly need to get improved for high ping players which often come along with an inherently high ping variance too.

    Thanks for replying to this and I understand that it is a fine balance to make the game an enjoyable experience for all.

    I just wanted to add that when I play on my own, this is rarely a problem, but when I play with friends the game can be quite frustrating with a pretty obvious delay. Also the game can be running fine or even better (by better I mean I obviously have an advantage) and half way through the match something happens and I can't buy a kill. Usually this is when playing in a party of people in the UK, so we are all in the same area. I just wanted to let you know in case it helps.

    If you have any other questions, I'll be happy to help.
  • GoldenWrench67
    323 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    I ran into packet loss problems during BFBC2. It was explained to me via DICE when I asked about pumping a full magazine into an enemy from Japan, while I'm on US servers, and the hit markers I was seeing on my screen were not being 'registered' on my enemy due to packet loss due to the distance of the servers. They also explained at the time that the lag and rubber banding I would experience could be due to 'packet loss'.

    I'm not an IT guy, and this was explained almost 6 years ago.
  • mischkag
    214 postsMember, Developer DICE
    I see. Things have changed quite a bit in the past 6 years. Ok so its not that your bullets 'disappear' like you said and rather the confirmed hits do not impede any damage. We send damage with redundancy and in case all these consecutive packets were lost, we resend it. So you would need to have some sort of a constantly high upstream packet loss which would for you result in tons of Rubberbanding. I am thinking about dropping the damage resend for high pingers as this results in damage application almost >1.5x their ping which can be a long time.
    In case you do encounter that again where you get the hit markers but the victim remained undamaged, plz tell me again and ideally upload a video somewhere. Thanks!
  • Borg_QC
    138 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    Well for the customers point of view I can see that Hit Detection and Damage calculation/application is the same thing as the result of it is what matters. You are not the only or first ones to report the issue, so there is definitely some problem(s).I am looking into this and hope to be able to improve it for the future. Thanks for bringing it up.

    Yes
    mischkag wrote: »
    Thanks for your responses. There is actually quite an ongoing effort for many developers to actively participate in the forums. There might not be lots of responses, but there is always a daily/weekly harvesting of the most important community request/issues. These are communicated to the entire team. . This does include the quit button issue and weapon balancing/damage issues are part of this of course too. I also made sure this forum is read by our weapon designers.
    I don't want it to sound like an excuse, but the game is complex and outside PC, there is quite a process from submitting a bugfix to eventually release it in a patch. It needs to be widely tested, run through Certification and make sure it does not break anything and actually improves the game. As frustrating as this can be for you players in terms of turn around time, it does not mean we don't listen or ignore it.
    As mentioned before, i have to admit that the networking as of now aims to be very responsive, but the side effect of it at the moment is that high pingers enjoy the smoothest game. As you probably read, EA added more regions to their servers. There is ongoing discussions how we can improve the high ping situation. As much as i agree that ideally there wouldn't be any high pingers in a given server, i at least wanna make sure that high pingers DO NOT have an advantage and it is rather transparent if you are hitting a high or low ping player and enjoy the faster response with a low ping.

    Right now the low pingers have lots of advantages when it comes to who killed first, but if the movement is not smooth to begin with, it is hard to hit in the first place.
    The NetworkPerfOverlay (Options/Gameplay/Advanced/Network Performance Graph) is a great tool to show the current networking behavior as the game understands it. @GyposEyelash enable this when you encounter the same behavior again and tell me what you are seeing (or record it).

    Your own bullets cannot disappear due to packet loss. I am not quite sure what @GoldenWrench67 you are referring to (bullets fired by a soldier?). If you have quite severe upstream packet loss (like 6+ packets in a row), it is possible that a bullet wont register on the server. But these kind of extreme situations are again a fine balance. The way it is designed is that input is sent with lots of redundancy and does not get resend as this would go out of order with your actual actions. We are gonna have a CTE up soon and very early i will put my lag/hit detection fixes on it. The CTE will be a great tool again to push improvements early and get actual feedback from you players.

    Good job DICE to improve BF1, i have a question for you? Why on Xbox One you do not show the PING directly in the game at the bottom left screen below the mini map or directly in the Scores Menus like on PC Games??? Thank you for your response!
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