Hit Detection

Comments

  • jdbelcher1998
    587 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    denjoga wrote: »
    Wait - you mean they're still working on fixing high ping players' nonexistent negative effects on other players?
    I mean, I know this is DICE we're talking about, but why are they testing fixes for imaginary problems?
    /s
    Please continue your spat with others in this thread elsewhere...it has nothing to do with what I posted at all.

  • denjoga
    607 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Well, it does actually.
    High ping players, according to the experts, do not affect other players' experience at all.
    So, what is there to fix?
    If DICE are spending resources and using the CTE to fix nonexistent problems, shouldn't we all be upset about that?
    It's a reasonable question.
  • jdbelcher1998
    587 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    denjoga wrote: »
    Well, it does actually.
    High ping players, according to the experts, do not affect other players' experience at all.
    So, what is there to fix?
    If DICE are spending resources and using the CTE to fix nonexistent problems, shouldn't we all be upset about that?
    It's a reasonable question.

    First off, you didn't ask a reasonable question, you asked a sarcastic one--sarcasm isn't meant to be reasonable, it's meant to mock (and in this case the only reason you did so was to bait, to continue the fight you guys have been having in this thread for more than a hundred pages now). And actually you're still being sarcastic in your follow-up here. (All of this, by the way, is why I initially left this thread; I only came back to discuss new changes with those who are actually concerned with them--you don't seem all that concerned to have a discussion here.) Secondly, even if you do have a reasonable question to ask about high pings, it is misplaced in response to my comment, which has nothing to do with whether high-ping players affect other players, but how the fix plays out in the CTE. Honestly, just stop.
  • KingTolapsium
    5491 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited August 2017
    denjoga wrote: »

    Wait - you mean they're still working on fixing high ping players' nonexistent negative effects on other players?
    I mean, I know this is DICE we're talking about, but why are they testing fixes for imaginary problems?
    /s

    Still ignoring math, eh?

    Variant and lossy connections (especially at high latencies) will obviously have a negative impact in synchronized simulations, especially if those simulations are around 30-60hz.

    Sorry, not sorry.

    Regarding the claim that aim assist affects hit reg.... that's silly nonsense.

    Aim assist does augment some recoil patterns, but it doesn't change hit reg. Most people have a hard time accepting they aren't phenomenal players, turning aim assist off only changes how the reticle is guided.

    @jdbelcher1998

    The suppression/damage stacking feels a million times better after the fix, it's diminished the "holding from damage" somewhat aswell.
  • LOLGotYerTags
    14781 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    @denjoga
    Don't Bait.
    
    
  • jdbelcher1998
    587 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    @jdbelcher1998

    The suppression/damage stacking feels a million times better after the fix, it's diminished the "holding from damage" somewhat aswell.

    Great to hear. Thanks!
  • lizzard
    985 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    denjoga wrote: »

    Wait - you mean they're still working on fixing high ping players' nonexistent negative effects on other players?
    I mean, I know this is DICE we're talking about, but why are they testing fixes for imaginary problems?
    /s

    Still ignoring math, eh?

    Variant and lossy connections (especially at high latencies) will obviously have a negative impact in synchronized simulations, especially if those simulations are around 30-60hz.

    Sorry, not sorry.

    Regarding the claim that aim assist affects hit reg.... that's silly nonsense.

    Aim assist does augment some recoil patterns, but it doesn't change hit reg. Most people have a hard time accepting they aren't phenomenal players, turning aim assist off only changes how the reticle is guided.

    @jdbelcher1998

    The suppression/damage stacking feels a million times better after the fix, it's diminished the "holding from damage" somewhat aswell.

    That's good news! Really hope they can make the gameplay more consistent and skill-based.

    @denjoga i get what you meant.
    I don't think you where baiting..
    Sarcasm, yes.. But reasonable, if we think of how the comments have been going on this forum for several years!
  • misisipiRivrRat
    1004 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    @misisipiRivrRat

    Are you guys turning off only auto-rotation or also slowdown? Slowdown is what pulls your aim off to other enemies, not auto-rotation (the latter is only the snap-to target function).

    Along with @mmarkweII I'd also be interested in some testing of aim assist and hit detection issues as others mention above. I have done extensive testing with it on and off and haven't noticed any difference in hit detection, but I wasn't specifically testing whether hit detection is "better" or "worse" with AA on or off. (Maybe @KingTolapsium has done these sort of tests, though.) I'm locked out of CTE currently but look forward to getting in with the next opening so I can put the game through its paces, especially the new changes such as prevention of damage and suppression stacking from high-pingers and the network smoothing. Has anyone tested the "fix to prevent late damage effects from lossy high ping connections" and if so how's that functioning?

    Ahh, thanks for that. Slowdown was not off but it is now.
    About the resetting, the sound will also reset from hometheater to stereo. Not often but it does happen.
  • denjoga
    607 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    @denjoga
    Don't Bait.
    
    

    @LOLGotYerTags
    Ok, boss.
  • denjoga
    607 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Variant and lossy connections (especially at high latencies) will obviously have a negative impact in synchronized simulations, especially if those simulations are around 30-60hz.

    A negative impact on whom?
    Only themselves, or players in their server with stable, low latency connections?

    This is not baiting or sarcasm - I'm trying to get to the bottom of an issue that many people have many different opinions on.

    Either people with poor connections have a negative impact on other players in the server or they don't.
    I'd just like to know the truth of the matter.
  • kniphtee
    244 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    denjoga wrote: »
    Variant and lossy connections (especially at high latencies) will obviously have a negative impact in synchronized simulations, especially if those simulations are around 30-60hz.

    A negative impact on whom?
    Only themselves, or players in their server with stable, low latency connections?

    This is not baiting or sarcasm - I'm trying to get to the bottom of an issue that many people have many different opinions on.

    Either people with poor connections have a negative impact on other players in the server or they don't.
    I'd just like to know the truth of the matter.

    They do.

    Any hiccup in the data stream can interrupt how a laggy player is presented in motion, directional changes are often presented incorrectly, the extrapolation exaggerates momentum/accel, any rapid directional changes for lossy connections look plainly incorrect for those with good connections, and an observant eye. The more latency the high pinger has, the more incorrect the representation on other clients.

    Data interruption can also cause late bullets to be given to a lowly latent client instantly, instead of properly paced (that's why the suppression stacking change is so awesome for low pingers). Until now, this created situations where low pingers could literally get held in place waiting to die, with no chance to fairly respond.

    Data interruption can allow a high pinger to find, shoot, and kill a low ping player before the high ping player is even seen on the other clients.

    A perfectly stable high ping connection does not negatively impact much other than position representation and combat synchronization (these are massively important factors to be augmenting in a fast fps game). Unfortunately a huge majority of high ping players also suffer from much worse networking symptoms, such as latency variation and packet loss, making the issues exponentially worse.

    Obviously having a bad connection will not give you an optimal gameplay experience, BUT that for the sake of fairness the poor connection should also be represented equally on the correct lowly latent stable clients.

    Thank you for that explanation - that concludes a high percentage of this thread and @LOLGotYerTags can go ahead and close this out. It all makes sense explained that way, two thumbs up and a martini for you!
  • Rev0verDrive
    6762 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Any hiccup in the data stream can interrupt how a laggy player is presented in motion, directional changes are often presented incorrectly, the extrapolation exaggerates momentum/accel, any rapid directional changes for lossy connections look plainly incorrect for those with good connections, and an observant eye. The more latency the high pinger has, the more incorrect the representation on other clients.

    Data interruption can also cause late bullets to be given to a lowly latent client instantly, instead of properly paced (that's why the suppression stacking change is so awesome for low pingers). Until now, this created situations where low pingers could literally get held in place waiting to die, with no chance to fairly respond.

    Data interruption can allow a high pinger to find, shoot, and kill a low ping player before the high ping player is even seen on the other clients.

    A perfectly stable high ping connection does not negatively impact much other than position representation and combat synchronization (these are massively important factors to be augmenting in a fast fps game). Unfortunately a huge majority of high ping players also suffer from much worse networking symptoms, such as latency variation and packet loss, making the issues exponentially worse.

    Obviously having a bad connection will not give you an optimal gameplay experience, BUT for the sake of fairness if the poor connection is allowed into the server that player should also be represented equally on the more correct lowly latent stable clients.

    Very well said. B)
  • jdbelcher1998
    587 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member

    They do.

    Any hiccup in the data stream can interrupt how a laggy player is presented in motion, directional changes are often presented incorrectly, the extrapolation exaggerates momentum/accel, any rapid directional changes for lossy connections look plainly incorrect for those with good connections, and an observant eye. The more latency the high pinger has, the more incorrect the representation on other clients.

    Data interruption can also cause late bullets to be given to a lowly latent client instantly, instead of properly paced (that's why the suppression stacking change is so awesome for low pingers). Until now, this created situations where low pingers could literally get held in place waiting to die, with no chance to fairly respond.

    Data interruption can allow a high pinger to find, shoot, and kill a low ping player before the high ping player is even seen on the other clients.

    A perfectly stable high ping connection does not negatively impact much other than position representation and combat synchronization (these are massively important factors to be augmenting in a fast fps game). Unfortunately a huge majority of high ping players also suffer from much worse networking symptoms, such as latency variation and packet loss, making the issues exponentially worse.

    Obviously having a bad connection will not give you an optimal gameplay experience, BUT for the sake of fairness if the poor connection is allowed into the server that player should also be represented equally on the more correct lowly latent stable clients.

    Awesome, super helpful reply. Thanks for this.
  • oJU5T1No
    901 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Thats the issues that we have all been discussing in this thread for over 200 pages that have been confirmed by the dev and are on going , the de-sync , being held by damage , late and stacked damage. Theres still individuals who think they know better saying its impossible for data loss and interruption to have any impact on the game.
    The hit detection issues mostly come from aim de-assist, when trying to aim at high latency players with high interpolation it causes the aim assist to play up it will often snap on off target stick your aim there and give you slow down there making it difficult or impossible to correct if your trying to trying to track a moving target. Also because the high latency players are out of sync sometimes they will be firing and you will be suppressed causing the rng bullet deviation to be worse, but on your screen there character model won't be firing yet and likely in a previous position so you don't know your been shot at, suppressed or even hit till your frozen to the spot or instantly drop dead to the stacked damage.
  • Str8killaa6
    7 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    oJU5T1No wrote: »
    Thats the issues that we have all been discussing in this thread for over 200 pages that have been confirmed by the dev and are on going , the de-sync , being held by damage , late and stacked damage. Theres still individuals who think they know better saying its impossible for data loss and interruption to have any impact on the game.
    The hit detection issues mostly come from aim de-assist, when trying to aim at high latency players with high interpolation it causes the aim assist to play up it will often snap on off target stick your aim there and give you slow down there making it difficult or impossible to correct if your trying to trying to track a moving target. Also because the high latency players are out of sync sometimes they will be firing and you will be suppressed causing the rng bullet deviation to be worse, but on your screen there character model won't be firing yet and likely in a previous position so you don't know your been shot at, suppressed or even hit till your frozen to the spot or instantly drop dead to the stacked damage.

    Who is considered a high ping player here .. I have 120 to 140 ping
    So now I will not be able to surpress other players ??
    Please help here I want to understand.
  • KingTolapsium
    5491 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    oJU5T1No wrote: »
    Thats the issues that we have all been discussing in this thread for over 200 pages that have been confirmed by the dev and are on going , the de-sync , being held by damage , late and stacked damage. Theres still individuals who think they know better saying its impossible for data loss and interruption to have any impact on the game.
    The hit detection issues mostly come from aim de-assist, when trying to aim at high latency players with high interpolation it causes the aim assist to play up it will often snap on off target stick your aim there and give you slow down there making it difficult or impossible to correct if your trying to trying to track a moving target. Also because the high latency players are out of sync sometimes they will be firing and you will be suppressed causing the rng bullet deviation to be worse, but on your screen there character model won't be firing yet and likely in a previous position so you don't know your been shot at, suppressed or even hit till your frozen to the spot or instantly drop dead to the stacked damage.

    Before we get started, TURN OFF THE AUTO-ROTATION. If it makes the game feel BROKEN, why on earth would you leave it on???

    The hitboxes are extrapolated with the character frame, as of quite a few patches ago.

    So your theory shouldn't be correct. Aim ASSIST does augment turning time, the feeling of control, and muscle memory SIGNIFICANTLY, but it does not lead you to miss targets (now).

    The extrapolation will create a false presentation in the most strained situations, but that's exactly why the "low ping network smoothing" was added, to let the low pingers have a fair chance. Not because their bullets were getting ignored, but because enemy models were being sharply repositioned during bullet travel time, resulting in a feeling of poor hit reg, when it is actually poor permanence in position.

    You shouldn't be suppressed before bullets spawn. It's not that it can't be out of sync, but if you are being suppressed that bullet should be represented on your client. For the bullet to be spawned, the player should be in line of sight (even if that's not exactly how it looks in your client).

    Both of these issues are very annoying, but should be improved in the current cte, and in the next patch, be sure to enable the "low ping smoothing factor" as it will help with a smooth presentation of enemy players greatly.
  • Str8killaa6
    7 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Who is considered a high ping player here .. I have 120 to 140 ping
    So now I will not be able to surpress other players ??
    Please help here I want to understand.
  • KingTolapsium
    5491 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Who is considered a high ping player here .. I have 120 to 140 ping
    So now I will not be able to surpress other players ??
    Please help here I want to understand.

    You are fine.

    The high ping server arbitration starts at 160ms in NA/EU and 200ms in other respective regions.

    You are a bit behind the sim, lower pings will be able to kill you very quickly, but your damage dealing should be uninterrupted.
  • oJU5T1No
    901 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Turning it off puts you at a disadvantage because everyone else is using it, it does most the aiming for you when you have it on and it works, i'm saying its not hit reg and poor permanence in position aswell but that poor permanence in position also effects the aim assist.

    It is that out of sync thats how the bundled damage occurs, on the high latency players screen his fired and hit me the correct amount of times for the kill but on my screen his not firing his gun yet and when he does his first bullet from an smg insta kills me 0-100 health in 1 frame from 1 hit , there should be 6-7 hits and suppression from the missed shots.
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