Hit Detection

Comments

  • VBALL_MVP
    6177 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited February 2017
    VBALL_MVP wrote: »
    Again not true. It's easy to have a stable connection overseas, just have ,to make sure that 1) Your hops go through quality ISPs and 2) The routers at each hop don't constantly get overloaded and drop packets.
    Can you help me understand what you mean here? Number 2 is in control of your ISP, right? I mean, you could call them and talk to them about the router stability at one of the hops, but this isn't something you can be sure of, right? And as for "quality ISPs," this is also not in everyone's control. For instance, TWC has a complete monopoly on cable internet in my area. I have done everything I can on my end to clean up my connection and to improve it to the best I can, but some of this will be out of my control. Same goes for many. And I took that to be part of why @mischkag was saying it wouldn't work simply to have universal standards, that the best that can be done FIRST is to fix the netcode and then to work on other changes on a kind of improvised basis through conversations like this one.

    As for the second comment, exactly my point. Many people have cappy internet, and many can be your next door neighbor. It's sad that less than 80% in the US have what's defined as a broadband connection and if you looked at a US map that shows areas that have wIreland speeds of excess of 3Mbps you would be embarrassed. The reality is that almost a third of the country only has one provider which means you are stuck with what they give you and that is not fair. So many accuse OOR and say ping lock, yet what do you do with the +30% that are in region and have poor setups or poor internet?

    For the hops, again not too much in a person's control, it all depends on the ISP how they update their tables to find the optimum route as well as how much they rely on their trunk to transfer data. The company I used to work for only went outside of its trunk when it could no longer go through its own network, regardless if there was a faster or more stable route. For example there was an issue at the node up in Sacramento, instead of updating the table and using an other ISPs line it would force it still through their network. You can image the uproar and the number of calls that came in when that happened. This is why there are websites that track these and show them on a map, so if you have issues you have the truth before the ISP gives you the run around.

    @PiercingGardian the dusting also happened in BF4 because only one FHT value was associated to vehicles and infantry so the hit box always lagged. But according to Floptrain, coding is never an issue, it's always the laggy players.
  • jdbelcher1998
    587 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    VBALL_MVP wrote: »
    VBALL_MVP wrote: »
    Again not true. It's easy to have a stable connection overseas, just have ,to make sure that 1) Your hops go through quality ISPs and 2) The routers at each hop don't constantly get overloaded and drop packets.
    Can you help me understand what you mean here? Number 2 is in control of your ISP, right? I mean, you could call them and talk to them about the router stability at one of the hops, but this isn't something you can be sure of, right? And as for "quality ISPs," this is also not in everyone's control. For instance, TWC has a complete monopoly on cable internet in my area. I have done everything I can on my end to clean up my connection and to improve it to the best I can, but some of this will be out of my control. Same goes for many. And I took that to be part of why @mischkag was saying it wouldn't work simply to have universal standards, that the best that can be done FIRST is to fix the netcode and then to work on other changes on a kind of improvised basis through conversations like this one.

    As for the second comment, exactly my point. Many people have cappy internet, and many can be your next door neighbor. It's sad that less than 80% in the US have what's defined as a broadband connection and if you looked at a US map that shows areas that have wIreland speeds of excess of 3Mbps you would be embarrassed. The reality is that almost a third of the country only has one provider which means you are stuck with what they give you and that is not fair. So many accuse OOR and say ping lock, yet what do you do with the +30% that are in region and have poor setups or poor internet?

    For the hops, again not too much in a person's control, it all depends on the ISP how they update their tables to find the optimum route as well as how much they rely on their trunk to transfer data. The company I used to work for only went outside of its trunk when it could no longer go through its own network, regardless if there was a faster or more stable route. For example there was an issue at the node up in Sacramento, instead of updating the table and using an other ISPs line it would force it still through their network. You can image the uproar and the number of calls that came in when that happened. This is why there are websites that track these and show them on a map, so if you have issues you have the truth before the ISP gives you the run around.

    Thanks for the clarification—that's what I thought. Yes, and this really sucks. I can hound my ISP to provide optimization and that can help at times—this cleared up a spade of packet loss I was experiencing on my network a few months back—but it's all in their control for the most part and sometimes older problems reappear and I have to have a go at them again! I think the basic conclusion of this entire thread is: it's complicated. What's amazing, though, is that we have @mischkag talking us through the complications, helping to educate, answer questions, and working with us to fix it. I for one find that pretty huge, especially when I've had some pretty bad experiences with other DICE games in the past and I'm getting quickly burned out on BF1 already.
  • VBALL_MVP
    6177 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    VBALL_MVP wrote: »
    VBALL_MVP wrote: »
    Again not true. It's easy to have a stable connection overseas, just have ,to make sure that 1) Your hops go through quality ISPs and 2) The routers at each hop don't constantly get overloaded and drop packets.
    Can you help me understand what you mean here? Number 2 is in control of your ISP, right? I mean, you could call them and talk to them about the router stability at one of the hops, but this isn't something you can be sure of, right? And as for "quality ISPs," this is also not in everyone's control. For instance, TWC has a complete monopoly on cable internet in my area. I have done everything I can on my end to clean up my connection and to improve it to the best I can, but some of this will be out of my control. Same goes for many. And I took that to be part of why @mischkag was saying it wouldn't work simply to have universal standards, that the best that can be done FIRST is to fix the netcode and then to work on other changes on a kind of improvised basis through conversations like this one.

    As for the second comment, exactly my point. Many people have cappy internet, and many can be your next door neighbor. It's sad that less than 80% in the US have what's defined as a broadband connection and if you looked at a US map that shows areas that have wIreland speeds of excess of 3Mbps you would be embarrassed. The reality is that almost a third of the country only has one provider which means you are stuck with what they give you and that is not fair. So many accuse OOR and say ping lock, yet what do you do with the +30% that are in region and have poor setups or poor internet?

    For the hops, again not too much in a person's control, it all depends on the ISP how they update their tables to find the optimum route as well as how much they rely on their trunk to transfer data. The company I used to work for only went outside of its trunk when it could no longer go through its own network, regardless if there was a faster or more stable route. For example there was an issue at the node up in Sacramento, instead of updating the table and using an other ISPs line it would force it still through their network. You can image the uproar and the number of calls that came in when that happened. This is why there are websites that track these and show them on a map, so if you have issues you have the truth before the ISP gives you the run around.

    Thanks for the clarification—that's what I thought. Yes, and this really sucks. I can hound my ISP to provide optimization and that can help at times—this cleared up a spade of packet loss I was experiencing on my network a few months back—but it's all in their control for the most part and sometimes older problems reappear and I have to have a go at them again! I think the basic conclusion of this entire thread is: it's complicated. What's amazing, though, is that we have @mischkag talking us through the complications, helping to educate, answer questions, and working with us to fix it. I for one find that pretty huge, especially when I've had some pretty bad experiences with other DICE games in the past and I'm getting quickly burned out on BF1 already.

    I completely agree
  • mmarkweII
    2919 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    VBALL_MVP wrote: »
    VBALL_MVP wrote: »
    Again not true. It's easy to have a stable connection overseas, just have ,to make sure that 1) Your hops go through quality ISPs and 2) The routers at each hop don't constantly get overloaded and drop packets.
    Can you help me understand what you mean here? Number 2 is in control of your ISP, right? I mean, you could call them and talk to them about the router stability at one of the hops, but this isn't something you can be sure of, right? And as for "quality ISPs," this is also not in everyone's control. For instance, TWC has a complete monopoly on cable internet in my area. I have done everything I can on my end to clean up my connection and to improve it to the best I can, but some of this will be out of my control. Same goes for many. And I took that to be part of why @mischkag was saying it wouldn't work simply to have universal standards, that the best that can be done FIRST is to fix the netcode and then to work on other changes on a kind of improvised basis through conversations like this one.

    As for the second comment, exactly my point. Many people have cappy internet, and many can be your next door neighbor. It's sad that less than 80% in the US have what's defined as a broadband connection and if you looked at a US map that shows areas that have wIreland speeds of excess of 3Mbps you would be embarrassed. The reality is that almost a third of the country only has one provider which means you are stuck with what they give you and that is not fair. So many accuse OOR and say ping lock, yet what do you do with the +30% that are in region and have poor setups or poor internet?

    For the hops, again not too much in a person's control, it all depends on the ISP how they update their tables to find the optimum route as well as how much they rely on their trunk to transfer data. The company I used to work for only went outside of its trunk when it could no longer go through its own network, regardless if there was a faster or more stable route. For example there was an issue at the node up in Sacramento, instead of updating the table and using an other ISPs line it would force it still through their network. You can image the uproar and the number of calls that came in when that happened. This is why there are websites that track these and show them on a map, so if you have issues you have the truth before the ISP gives you the run around.

    Thanks for the clarification—that's what I thought. Yes, and this really sucks. I can hound my ISP to provide optimization and that can help at times—this cleared up a spade of packet loss I was experiencing on my network a few months back—but it's all in their control for the most part and sometimes older problems reappear and I have to have a go at them again! I think the basic conclusion of this entire thread is: it's complicated. What's amazing, though, is that we have @mischkag talking us through the complications, helping to educate, answer questions, and working with us to fix it. I for one find that pretty huge, especially when I've had some pretty bad experiences with other DICE games in the past and I'm getting quickly burned out on BF1 already.

    Yes. It is complicated. It's great to get responses about the issues. I'm not having a go at anyone here but we have been getting responses for years now from devs and others, including Chris @ battlenonsense, with actual data, when it comes to BF. Then, there have been technical posts regarding ISP's by quite a few people on these forums, loaded with information. Same goes for "unofficial" language in regards to TCR / TRC requirements etc. Throw in some corporate "red tape", NDA's, and greed, there's plenty of that to go around these days in the real world...so yes, it's a complicated solution, but the information is out there, with data to back it up.

    Fix the issues like hitboxes, coding, memory leaks, etc. and stop blaming other player's connections. Maybe DICE should add a reaction test option in the game. That way people can see how fast they really are compared to how fast they think they are.
  • denjoga
    607 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Forgot to ask earlier:

    What's the deal with players skating around in the crouch position?
    Have seen this in the kill cam of "questionable" kills since BF3 and now I'm beginning to see it more and more often in this game.

    E.g.; Hits don't register on enemy player despite clearly being on target, enemy player turns and "insta-kills" me (hits are received in a cluster, faster than any weapon can shoot, feeling like a ohk at 100% health by a weapon that can't have ohk'ed in the given circumstance), kill cam shows enemy player floating around the map in crouch position.
  • mmarkweII
    2919 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    @denjoga it's a visual glitch on your screen. Just shoot him before he shoots you. :)
  • stuwooster
    279 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    Number 2 is in control of your ISP, right? I mean, you could call them and talk to them about the router stability at one of the hops, but this isn't something you can be sure of

    This varies from place to place. For example. My internet is supplied by BT who also happen to own all the UK infrastructure. (Except for the old AT&T cable network which is owned by Virgin.) They have networks, the old phone network that is used for ADSL and the new fibre network. The old adsl network is leased out to other internet suppliers through LLU and BT provide fibre themselves. So you could be in the position where your internet comes directly from the company that owns the network or through a third party. Once it comes time to leave the UK your data is routed out of the BT network and over onto transatlantic lines that are owned by Level 3, once it gets to the US it will be handed over to whoever the local infrastructure owners are there and routed accordingly.
    So the likely hood of having your data handled by only one company are very slim I would imagine it would be the same even going from state to state in the US and it will really depend on how well this companies provision for traffic levels and congestion as well as overall network maintenance as to how well your internet will perform.

    Basically what I am trying to say is there is no way your SIP can guarantee you a good connection over any real distance even if they own and operate the network which is isually not the case, at some point it will hop over to a different company and then it's mostly out of their control to do anything.

    We are kind of lucky in the UK that one company owns the majority of the infrastructure and you can get internet directly from them. Also their fibre coverage has pretty good penetration. My internet currently runs over about 20 meters of copper to the local fibre box which is just over the road.
    Previously when we had ADSL it was about 5 miles of copper to the local phone exchange and the internet was terrible.
  • jdbelcher1998
    587 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    mmarkweII wrote: »
    VBALL_MVP wrote: »
    VBALL_MVP wrote: »
    Again not true. It's easy to have a stable connection overseas, just have ,to make sure that 1) Your hops go through quality ISPs and 2) The routers at each hop don't constantly get overloaded and drop packets.
    Can you help me understand what you mean here? Number 2 is in control of your ISP, right? I mean, you could call them and talk to them about the router stability at one of the hops, but this isn't something you can be sure of, right? And as for "quality ISPs," this is also not in everyone's control. For instance, TWC has a complete monopoly on cable internet in my area. I have done everything I can on my end to clean up my connection and to improve it to the best I can, but some of this will be out of my control. Same goes for many. And I took that to be part of why @mischkag was saying it wouldn't work simply to have universal standards, that the best that can be done FIRST is to fix the netcode and then to work on other changes on a kind of improvised basis through conversations like this one.

    As for the second comment, exactly my point. Many people have cappy internet, and many can be your next door neighbor. It's sad that less than 80% in the US have what's defined as a broadband connection and if you looked at a US map that shows areas that have wIreland speeds of excess of 3Mbps you would be embarrassed. The reality is that almost a third of the country only has one provider which means you are stuck with what they give you and that is not fair. So many accuse OOR and say ping lock, yet what do you do with the +30% that are in region and have poor setups or poor internet?

    For the hops, again not too much in a person's control, it all depends on the ISP how they update their tables to find the optimum route as well as how much they rely on their trunk to transfer data. The company I used to work for only went outside of its trunk when it could no longer go through its own network, regardless if there was a faster or more stable route. For example there was an issue at the node up in Sacramento, instead of updating the table and using an other ISPs line it would force it still through their network. You can image the uproar and the number of calls that came in when that happened. This is why there are websites that track these and show them on a map, so if you have issues you have the truth before the ISP gives you the run around.

    Thanks for the clarification—that's what I thought. Yes, and this really sucks. I can hound my ISP to provide optimization and that can help at times—this cleared up a spade of packet loss I was experiencing on my network a few months back—but it's all in their control for the most part and sometimes older problems reappear and I have to have a go at them again! I think the basic conclusion of this entire thread is: it's complicated. What's amazing, though, is that we have @mischkag talking us through the complications, helping to educate, answer questions, and working with us to fix it. I for one find that pretty huge, especially when I've had some pretty bad experiences with other DICE games in the past and I'm getting quickly burned out on BF1 already.

    Yes. It is complicated. It's great to get responses about the issues. I'm not having a go at anyone here but we have been getting responses for years now from devs and others, including Chris @ battlenonsense, with actual data, when it comes to BF. Then, there have been technical posts regarding ISP's by quite a few people on these forums, loaded with information. Same goes for "unofficial" language in regards to TCR / TRC requirements etc. Throw in some corporate "red tape", NDA's, and greed, there's plenty of that to go around these days in the real world...so yes, it's a complicated solution, but the information is out there, with data to back it up.

    Fix the issues like hitboxes, coding, memory leaks, etc. and stop blaming other player's connections. Maybe DICE should add a reaction test option in the game. That way people can see how fast they really are compared to how fast they think they are.

    No doubt. Thanks for that.
  • jdbelcher1998
    587 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    stuwooster wrote: »
    Number 2 is in control of your ISP, right? I mean, you could call them and talk to them about the router stability at one of the hops, but this isn't something you can be sure of

    This varies from place to place. For example. My internet is supplied by BT who also happen to own all the UK infrastructure. (Except for the old AT&T cable network which is owned by Virgin.) They have networks, the old phone network that is used for ADSL and the new fibre network. The old adsl network is leased out to other internet suppliers through LLU and BT provide fibre themselves. So you could be in the position where your internet comes directly from the company that owns the network or through a third party. Once it comes time to leave the UK your data is routed out of the BT network and over onto transatlantic lines that are owned by Level 3, once it gets to the US it will be handed over to whoever the local infrastructure owners are there and routed accordingly.
    So the likely hood of having your data handled by only one company are very slim I would imagine it would be the same even going from state to state in the US and it will really depend on how well this companies provision for traffic levels and congestion as well as overall network maintenance as to how well your internet will perform.

    Basically what I am trying to say is there is no way your SIP can guarantee you a good connection over any real distance even if they own and operate the network which is isually not the case, at some point it will hop over to a different company and then it's mostly out of their control to do anything.

    We are kind of lucky in the UK that one company owns the majority of the infrastructure and you can get internet directly from them. Also their fibre coverage has pretty good penetration. My internet currently runs over about 20 meters of copper to the local fibre box which is just over the road.
    Previously when we had ADSL it was about 5 miles of copper to the local phone exchange and the internet was terrible.

    Great point. And any hops along the way that block ping data can also complicate matters too in terms of evaluation of your network's route to the server. As to the infrastructure here, I'm not sure— @VBALL_MVP would know a lot more about that (I'm pretty ignorant on this). Definitely worth looking into. Thanks for the response.
  • VBALL_MVP
    6177 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited February 2017
    stuwooster wrote: »
    Number 2 is in control of your ISP, right? I mean, you could call them and talk to them about the router stability at one of the hops, but this isn't something you can be sure of

    This varies from place to place. For example. My internet is supplied by BT who also happen to own all the UK infrastructure. (Except for the old AT&T cable network which is owned by Virgin.) They have networks, the old phone network that is used for ADSL and the new fibre network. The old adsl network is leased out to other internet suppliers through LLU and BT provide fibre themselves. So you could be in the position where your internet comes directly from the company that owns the network or through a third party. Once it comes time to leave the UK your data is routed out of the BT network and over onto transatlantic lines that are owned by Level 3, once it gets to the US it will be handed over to whoever the local infrastructure owners are there and routed accordingly.
    So the likely hood of having your data handled by only one company are very slim I would imagine it would be the same even going from state to state in the US and it will really depend on how well this companies provision for traffic levels and congestion as well as overall network maintenance as to how well your internet will perform.

    Basically what I am trying to say is there is no way your SIP can guarantee you a good connection over any real distance even if they own and operate the network which is isually not the case, at some point it will hop over to a different company and then it's mostly out of their control to do anything.

    We are kind of lucky in the UK that one company owns the majority of the infrastructure and you can get internet directly from them. Also their fibre coverage has pretty good penetration. My internet currently runs over about 20 meters of copper to the local fibre box which is just over the road.
    Previously when we had ADSL it was about 5 miles of copper to the local phone exchange and the internet was terrible.

    Great point. And any hops along the way that block ping data can also complicate matters too in terms of evaluation of your network's route to the server. As to the infrastructure here, I'm not sure— @VBALL_MVP would know a lot more about that (I'm pretty ignorant on this). Definitely worth looking into. Thanks for the response.

    Thanks for the compliment. I am no longer in that business but talking to old mates not much has changed in terms of ISPs practices. I'll agree with floptrain that you shouldn't need to be an expert, but unfortunately as technology advances and becomes more available, the more complicated it becomes. If you don't believe me, go look at the first TVs, or more in our timeline, gaming consoles; we have gone to 1 button to 2 to 6 to whatever the PS4 has now (I counted 11).

    @stuwooster is right, the will eventually get out of a carrier, they try to do this as late as possible to avoid charges. And of course going over the Atlantic you are most likely going to switch carriers like through Level3, but there are others out there owned by other telecommunications (I believe vodophone owns one). I remember one showing latency from London to New York at under 35ms (very impressive). Of course this is one hop, but still illustrates what data can be transferred at.

    Interesting read would be Level 3 vs. Comcast, this will give a glimpse of the shady work of ISPs.
  • stuwooster
    279 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    @stuwooster: You would need to store some sort of connection quality history to each and every server center you have connected to for each player. It is in fact getting evaluated, but wont be done for BF1.

    That is interesting to know. Something for the next Battlefield?

    mischkag wrote: »
    I am not sure the sample size is big enough to do jitter analysis on demand whenever you ping a server for the server browser.

    Is that something that could be done cumulatively? Whereby on first getting the game everyone has access to open servers, then over time as connection quality data is collected new servers would appear for those with better connection quality, as long as a reasonably consistent connection was maintained over games these servers would remain available but if quality started to drop then those servers would just disappear from the browser list, not necessarily kicking people mid game.
    mischkag wrote: »
    To do it in game via a warning would potentially be an option. I am just personally a bit reluctant to do that as i am not entirely sure what the correct metric here is.You have to make sure to not have stalls to disturb the picture nor server spikes. Also if you choose it to aggressive, lots of players will complain, if u choose it too loose, it wont be effective.
    The good thing with ping is that you can evaluate these before joining a server, the jitter requires some data accumulation and if we kick in game, we probably never have full games at the end :(

    I would think any kind of restriction would have to be fairly transparent as i would guess the majority of players have no idea on things like jitter and packet loss, hence what i said above in that rather than getting kicked or receiving warnings, these players just never see the better quality servers, ignorance is bliss :-) How that would work for people trying to join friends i dont know, maybe just a message that says something online the lines incompatible connection quality, please join X / Y server to play with friends?

    Out of interest, how many players on a 64p server would it take to make things wonky, is there a threshold whereby the server can tolerate say up to 10 players or a certain range. Or can one person with a really bad connection make everything go ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ up for the whole server?


  • misisipiRivrRat
    995 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Mischkag. Thanks for being here!
  • mischkag
    214 postsMember, Developer DICE
    You make some good suggestions, but it also requires a persistent logic to store this information. Thats what I hope we can get to for the next game. I dont really wanna consistently ping all servers just to find out which ones i may have jitter to. Hiding a server from you where you had a poor game session to this time around wont do much good as you will stay on the server as long as you enjoy it.
    As mentioned before, the impact of packet loss or a jittery connection is barely measurable on the server. But even one player can make the experience really poor for everyone as he is hard to hit, rubberbands thru the world and applies any game even very late to the recipients (damage etc).
  • Ram1c
    4167 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    has anyone's hit detection problem gotten better or worse post patch for me at least it seems I get less single frame catch-up deaths but still feel like I have less damage output than the enemy
  • mischkag
    214 postsMember, Developer DICE
    Only a few things have been addressed in that patch.
    Can you plz elaborate a bit on less damage output?
  • Ram1c
    4167 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    Only a few things have been addressed in that patch.
    Can you plz elaborate a bit on less damage output?

    I understand that the clients don't match up but it's most noticeable when I use lmgs it takes me more than 6 bullets dead center to kill and I've had times where my he rounds with the tank land directly on someone's foot only to see them running out of the debris and at times feels like my opponents do more damage I've gotten killed by a hellriegel with two shots to the stomach full health
  • denjoga
    607 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    I've always (since BF3) felt at times (more often than not) that it takes me twice as many bullets to kill as to be killed.
    I assume it's just another facet of the whole latency compensation thing.
  • Ram1c
    4167 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    denjoga wrote: »
    I've always (since BF3) felt at times (more often than not) that it takes me twice as many bullets to kill as to be killed.
    I assume it's just another facet of the whole latency compensation thing.

    Crazy thing is I never once had a problem with 3 but once bf4 came out it started at least for me funny thing is I remember when I played the beta it was perfect
    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/CJA191/video/27162878
    At this point I wanted to take my Xbox and smash it through my tv
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