Hit Detection

Comments

  • mmarkweII
    2919 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    The only way to do away with "an advantage of any sort" would be to play on a LAN. That's it.

    What's next, people complaining about a 50ms advantage because [email protected] gets killed by [email protected]? :neutral:
  • stuwooster
    279 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    The logic by DICE completely baffels me. Punish the low ping players and reward the high ping player. Moron logic!! My theory is that they do this to save money on server locations.
    As far as i can tell they are effectively using your low ping to give high pingers a better experience, rather than to people with 500ms ping time try to play each other with a 1 second delay you end up with a 500ms vs a 30ms and then they use some apparently broken maths to try and fudge it into an average.
    As far as i can make out the Extr offset in the netgraph is pretty much a server side lag that is applied to you as a buffer. I could be wrong about that but without someone actually giving us hard info we may never know.
  • der_Metatron
    43 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Played OOR last night, went extremly well, I guess I will be visiting US Servers more often then :-)
  • oJU5T1No
    901 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    The game is defiantly adding delays to lower latency players to compo sate for higher latency players probably delaying packets, if my ping is 30-40ms the worst lag and de-sync I should experience is being 20ms behind the guy who is 10ms ping to the server, but that is defiantly not the case its hard to find a game thats even playable theres so much de-sync and bad hit detection its got worse with the christmas noobs who mostly like don't have optimised connections or even the ports forwarded.
  • diagoro
    1591 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited January 2017
    It was my first time playing out of region today (with members of a sister clan). I live in the US, but the clan members were from Europe, so they were in a European server, obviously. Once I joined them, I could tell that the hit detection for me was atrocious right of the bat. I didn't feel I had an advantage at all playing out of region like many here have thought to be true.

    But hey, this was MY personal experience. Your experience may be vastly different from mine. Needless to say, I'll be avoiding playing out of region while running solo in the future.

    Exactly same experience here, but I merely have to go to US-East for an abysmal experience. Which sucks even worse, as my normal server browser options now often show only 10% us-west servers, if any at all (had to spam the reset button now for several minutes just to get one).

    It means playing with friends/clans pointless, they might as well not add plations. It was never this obvious in BF4.
  • RichardPye843
    206 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    I have to agree the game is simply unplayable! Of course you can play if you enjoy frustation. This is the true masochistic experience!!
  • denjoga
    607 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited January 2017
    Wow, wow, wow...
    Just found this thread and wondering if I am hallucinating!
    @mischkag first, let me say that the "hate and rage" from the player base is directly related to the amount (or lack) of communication from the developer.
    Just look at the minuscule amount of unpleasantness in this thread compared to any other with no DICE participation.
    So, thank you for FINALLY engaging in conversation with us regarding these issues which have been around since (for me, anyway) BF3.
    Throughout BF3 and well into BF4, the HUGE issue of HORRIBLE hit/damage reg and lag comp was completely ignored by DICE while vicious battles raged in the forums over advantages/disadvantages due to connection quality (I still have the scars :wink: ).

    So far, BF1 feels vastly improved, in terms of 'net code', over BF3 & 4.
    I say "so far" because my experience w/ 3 & 4 was that, over time, as the player base grew around the globe, the quality of the experience degraded.
    I have seen a slight decline in quality in this game since Christmas, as others have mentioned, but so far not as bad as the previous titles.

    I am so glad to have this 'netcode' issue not just finally acknowledged but actually being discussed openly - I can't even express what a huge difference it makes in my attitude towards DICE just to know that we're finally having this conversation.

    Anyway, all that having been said, I'd just like to add my 2 cents about spotting;
    First, there is definitely a noticeable connection between poor server performance re: hit/damage reg and spot functioning.
    I can always tell that when I start having problems getting spotting to work, that I'll also start having hit reg problems.
    I am an habitual, obsessive spotter.
    In previous titles, I developed a rhythm with the spot button to avoid triggering the cool-down which worked very well but, then again, spotting worked much more reliably than in this game.

    For this game, you need to either make spotting far more sensitive and responsive, or eliminate the cool-down mechanic.
    I don't know exactly what factors affect whether or not a spot attempt is successful (it has been mentioned that weapon/sight and environmental effects are factors) but one thing seems perfectly logical to me; if I can see an enemy, I should be able to spot that enemy. Period.
    Even if it's just a tiny silhouette on the horizon, if I can see it, I can point it out to my teammates.

    I have also noticed, as another poster mentioned, that I can spot planes without any difficulty at all, tanks with very little difficulty compared to infantry and, when the airship is in the sky, it is very difficult NOT to spot it - I can be facing 90* away, looking at enemy infantry and the blimp gets spotted but not the soldier.

    These leads me to believe it may be a "hit-box" issue - as if the spotting hit-box for infantry is very precise while for vehicles it is variably coarse.

    Sorry for such a long post - brevity has never been my strong suit. :blush:

    TL;DR SUMMARY:
    Please give some attention to the spotting mechanic and either make it much more sensitive and responsive or remove the overheat/cool-down mechanic.

    THANK YOU!!!

    edit: PS: it just occurred to me that in BF3 for sure and BF4 iirc, there was a sound effect to let you know that you had overheated the spot function. That same thing would go a long way towards improving the spotting experience in this game, if the overheat/cool-down remains.
    Post edited by denjoga on
  • RichardPye843
    206 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Today was one of the worst days I have EVER had with this terrible hit detection. I shot a guy in the back with the shot gun shell with a tank and only did 68 damage and I was dead on center 3 meters away. It is so bad the splash damage does ZERO damage from regular tank shells. The worst is spawning in with a tank and the repair function missing. This game NEEDS to get fixed! I am literally sick of it. Somedays are better than others. You know when you are about to have a bad game when the spotting function does not work at all.
  • TheOver50Gamer
    8 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    It's been stated a million times but I'll beat the dead horse one more time anyway. The fix (or significant improvement) is region lock. Why do we even have different region servers if they are not locked? I get it, Steve in Europe may want to play with his friend in the US. Then there should be dedicated "international" servers for those types of players to meet up. Otherwise, I don't understand why we can't lock regions. Can DICE/EA give an exact reason for this?

    I just feel like they are throwing out the baby with the bath water. Causing everyone's gameplay to suffer to appease a small group of players.

    Michael great points but I think we now live in a society where everyone must be treated equally so Dice cannot be seen to be doing anything negative towards a player because his internet is bad. They could at least let us rent servers on console with a ping lock, like they do for PC servers I believe, I would go for that option I don't mind offending you if you got rubbish internet when you get booted for high latency! o:)
  • KingTolapsium
    5491 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    It's been stated a million times but I'll beat the dead horse one more time anyway. The fix (or significant improvement) is region lock. Why do we even have different region servers if they are not locked? I get it, Steve in Europe may want to play with his friend in the US. Then there should be dedicated "international" servers for those types of players to meet up. Otherwise, I don't understand why we can't lock regions. Can DICE/EA give an exact reason for this?

    I just feel like they are throwing out the baby with the bath water. Causing everyone's gameplay to suffer to appease a small group of players.

    Michael great points but I think we now live in a society where everyone must be treated equally so Dice cannot be seen to be doing anything negative towards a player because his internet is bad. They could at least let us rent servers on console with a ping lock, like they do for PC servers I believe, I would go for that option I don't mind offending you if you got rubbish internet when you get booted for high latency! o:)

    We can make things inconsistent for the inconsistent connections.

    I also don't think there is a ping lock on pc in bf1 yet.
  • jdbelcher1998
    587 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited January 2017
    I also don't think there is a ping lock on pc in bf1 yet.
    Nope. Not yet. And region lock along with ping lock were both present with third-party softwares like ProCon for PC in BF4. This is why I said DICE needs to make it a priority to include ping and region locks for admins of servers for all platforms now that everything is going through DICE for the Server Rental Program—it is a feature most PC players have gotten used to and why the BF1 SRP has hit the PC community the hardest. Consoles have never had this option, though, and it would be a fantastic step forward for DICE to bring this kind of customization to all platforms. And if Microsoft/Sony have nothing to do with the set tickrate for servers, perhaps they have no say in whether these kinds of server customizations are added either. Let's hope February Patch will include at the very least more in the way of customization for the SRP.
  • KingTolapsium
    5491 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    I also don't think there is a ping lock on pc in bf1 yet.
    Nope. Not yet. And region lock along with ping lock were both present with third-party softwares like ProCon for PC in BF4. This is why I said DICE needs to make it a priority to include ping and region locks for admins of servers for all platforms now that everything is going through DICE for the Server Rental Program—it is a feature most PC players have gotten used to and why the BF1 SRP has hit the PC community the hardest. Consoles have never had this option, though, and it would be a fantastic step forward for DICE to bring this kind of customization to all platforms. And if Microsoft/Sony have nothing to do with the set tickrate for servers, perhaps they have no say in whether these kinds of server customizations are added either. Let's hope February Patch will include at the very least more in the way of customization for the SRP.

    I agree, just dispelling some misinfo.

    The idea that we have to let everyone play equally because it's "fair" gets me riled (not your comment). Thats why things are still so bad on console (and pc regarding high ping).
  • jdbelcher1998
    587 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Yeah, it's funny because "fair" in this case ends up being unfair, and it seems like some of the devs are starting to agree. So I'm super happy to hear that the devs are working to fix hit reg first and then are also concerned to improve server performance. I still get the serv tick error icon quite often in game (nearly every game I play the server is failing to do a simulation refresh!), so it's not just hit reg that is the problem. But my sense is that even with great server performance, the only way this works out well is to initially treat "unfairly" those with high ping and packet loss, who are making the gaming experience less than optimal for the *entire* server, in order to make the gaming experience on the whole more or less "fair" for the majority. In other words, the devs in my opinion are treating things exactly backwards right now. Hopefully that gets addressed very soon.
  • Michael_Seaman
    461 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    It's been stated a million times but I'll beat the dead horse one more time anyway. The fix (or significant improvement) is region lock. Why do we even have different region servers if they are not locked? I get it, Steve in Europe may want to play with his friend in the US. Then there should be dedicated "international" servers for those types of players to meet up. Otherwise, I don't understand why we can't lock regions. Can DICE/EA give an exact reason for this?

    I just feel like they are throwing out the baby with the bath water. Causing everyone's gameplay to suffer to appease a small group of players.

    Michael great points but I think we now live in a society where everyone must be treated equally so Dice cannot be seen to be doing anything negative towards a player because his internet is bad. They could at least let us rent servers on console with a ping lock, like they do for PC servers I believe, I would go for that option I don't mind offending you if you got rubbish internet when you get booted for high latency! o:)

    I fail to see how "equal treatment" has anything to do with region lock. If you have crappy internet but at least play in your own region that's one thing. But other than the reasons I stated, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to be playing out of their region.
  • Cactus757
    47 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    The first time I noticed the high ping advantage was with COD MW3. You would be dead before someone even came around the corner to shoot you. Then it was discovered you could add 250ms to your ping (using network emulation tools) and you would be ahead of players with low ping. A low ping player could be camping in a corner watching a doorway and I(with high ping added) could casually walk in and shoot him before he had any idea. Seems like ever since then these FPS games have used a similar netcode. Some better than others but generally if there was any advantage to be had, the high ping got it. It was so bad when COD AW was launched I could add up to 450ms to my ping and have my way with people. That was patched soon after launch. I haven't bothered testing anything on BF1 yet.
  • KingTolapsium
    5491 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Cactus757 wrote: »
    The first time I noticed the high ping advantage was with COD MW3. You would be dead before someone even came around the corner to shoot you. Then it was discovered you could add 250ms to your ping (using network emulation tools) and you would be ahead of players with low ping. A low ping player could be camping in a corner watching a doorway and I(with high ping added) could casually walk in and shoot him before he had any idea. Seems like ever since then these FPS games have used a similar netcode. Some better than others but generally if there was any advantage to be had, the high ping got it. It was so bad when COD AW was launched I could add up to 450ms to my ping and have my way with people. That was patched soon after launch. I haven't bothered testing anything on BF1 yet.

    You can cheat in bf too, it's not a universal advantage to add ping.

    Regardless, you shouldn't do it.
  • Cactus757
    47 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    I have no desire to cheat. I just want a playable game on a level playing field. Right now, playing in 20ms West US servers is a terrible experience. Frame rate drops, awful hit detection, dying instantly, etc. It is a significant disadvantage. I've been trying Euro servers and used to get a smooth game at about 150ms. Since Christmas this has deteriorated. I'm guessing the sweet spot has probably moved to an even higher ping. My previous post was to explain that this isn't a new thing, it's been around for a few years. It's likely that high ROF automatic weapons masked some of these problems. In BF1 the single shot weapons expose how flawed this system really is.
  • mischkag
    214 postsMember, Developer DICE
    Hey guys, again thanks a lot for your feedback and productive input. First of all we DO NOT deliberately punish low ping players. Infact i worked really hard to make the game as responsive and tight for low ping players as possible. However, for high network variance(or fluctuation), i got to buffer some more and hence it will be a very smooth experience for them. I did fix quite a bit of hit detection related issues already, but it will take time before it gets out in a patch. Will be featured in CTE soon though. Region locks would obviously help, a first step should be a region lock option for rented servers. If you pay for a server, you should imho have the power and choice to do that.
    The extrapolation offset is essentially the time i need to add for lag compensation to make sure we always have 2 states to interpolate between and not run into extrapolation whre it becomes an educated guessing game. High pingers will have such a fluctuation that you often have them running into extrapolation on your client and once a new state from them comes in, a pop/teleport/rubberband may occur. Of course that could be blended more smoothly, but you really dont want to place soldiers on any client where they have in fact never been on the server or the originating client. I know this is a bit technical, but it really is not so simple to make the game super responsive and rewarding for low ping players while the game has to be still playable for high ping ones. As long as we can have higher ping players due to lack of region support, i need to make at least sure the game runs for everybody. Sure, I'd love to reward the low ping player more, but an active punishment for high ping does not feel right to me.
  • mischkag
    214 postsMember, Developer DICE
    Regarding the spotting. I did improve that already too. More precise in the lower distance and more 'forgiving' further away. The main issues are really with spotting soldiers, not so much vehicles.
  • jdbelcher1998
    587 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Awesome news re: potential region locks. What about dealing with players with packet loss? As for the "active punishment for high ping players," could we instead have server rulesets for rented servers that included a high ping lock, which would not be an active punishment for the high-ping player, but it would simply provide a (potentially) more stable server for low-ping players? Finally, what about the servtick error icon I keep getting? Don't know if you guys have seen much of this in your tests, but I'm getting it frequently. Many thanks once again for all your hard work, communication, and eagerness to keep improving this game.
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