(Developer Comment) Grenade Resupply, Ammo 2.0 and What's Next

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ChickNFoot
1627 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
edited March 2017
Grenade Resupply, Ammo 2.0, and What's Next.
https://www.reddit.com/r/battlefield_live/comments/5zytvl/grenade_resupply_ammo_20_and_whats_next/

Below is the Developer Comment and a reply from the link above

"The grenade resupply changes have been quite controversial, and I've seen a lot of posts asking "What was DICE thinking!?" So I'm here to answer that for you, and invite to discussion.

The grenade changes that we tested a few weeks ago in CTE and recently released with Battlefield 1 They Shall Not Pass are a very small part of a much larger system we've been calling Ammo 2.0 internally.

What is Ammo 2.0? Ammo 2.0 is a complete rework to the resupply mechanics of Battlefield 1 that at its core is intended to increase the utility of the Support class. It should always be helpful to have a Support with ammo gadgets around. As side effects to this system we also get much more freedom and levers to tune how often gadgets can be used beyond just max ammo count and resupply time.

What are our goals with Ammo 2.0?

Ammo gadgets should always be helpful, and increase the abilities of other gadgets in the short term, even immediately after spawning in, not just after they've expended all of their uses.

Other gadgets should not become completely useless once their ammo is expended, but should be stronger when supported by ammo.

Resupplying must be limited to prevent overuse of gadgets, but should not require players to sit on a box for an excessive amount of time, else redeploying with full ammo becomes a more attractive and efficient option than actually resupplying.

How do we plan on solving those issues with Ammo 2.0? The core of Ammo 2.0 is a shift from ammo gadgets being the only way to resupply, to a cooldown based system with ammo gadgets modifying cooldowns. The cooldown based resupply shifts the benefit of the ammo box from long term to short term. With the cooldown giving small amounts of ammo over the long term, we can reduce the starting ammo of many gadgets, making having ammo most important during a fight instead of after. In many ways the Support's ammo gadgets will become something like the offensive counterpart of the Medic's healing gadgets. Passive health regen will allow a player to survive without a Medic in the long term, but in the short term the Medic gadgets are critical to winning fights. We want support to multiply the effectiveness of other classes. For example, 2 Assaults supported with ammo should be better at taking out tanks than 3 Assaults without Support. Bringing a proper squad composition with complementary roles should be stronger than brute force stacking a single class.

Cooldown based gadgets are nothing new to the Battlefield series, a good portion of the gadgets in Battlefield 1 already use a cooldown or regenerating ammo, such as medkits, syringe, mortar, periscope, and more. With Ammo 2.0 we'll be able to extend the benefits of the ammo box/pouch to these gadgets as well. So far you've seen two parts of the system, grenade cooldowns, and ammo box cooldown speedup. We've seen around a 7% decrease in grenade throws per second and grenade kills per minute across all base game maps since Battlefield 1 They Shall Not Pass was released.

What's next for Ammo 2.0 Lots more changes will be coming to CTE for testing. Here's a preview of what we want to experiment with:

The next thing coming to CTE will be a tuning pass on grenade timers and ammo box cooldown speedup. These changes will increase the time it takes to regen grenades without ammo, but also increase the strength of the ammo box buff. Resupply time with the ammo box will be mostly unchanged.

Suppression hindering resupply. Much like passive healing and the medkit are already blocked by suppression, we'll be extending that to resupplies as well. Incoming suppression will completely halt passive resupply, and will make resupply from ammo boxes take 50% longer. This should help reduce grenade use on infantry maps like Argonne, Verdun, and Vaux where players are often in combat, and where we also see the highest rates of grenade kills, without making grenade resupply painfully long on larger maps where grenades are much less of a problem.

Expanding Ammo 2.0 support to all gadgets.

Adding Ammo Pouch support to Ammo 2.0. Our intent for the ammo pouch is to have it apply a "sticky" effect to the soldier who picks it up, giving him a similar cooldown reduction to the ammo box on his gadgets for a short time.

Testing persistent cooldowns. This would mean tracking ammo count through death. Players would always spawn with at least a minimum amount of ammo, but the only way to get back to maximum would be to wait for the cooldown, either waiting a long time, or quickly with the help of a Support. No more bypassing the need to resupply by dying or redeploying.

Testing ammo overcharge. This would allow ammo gadgets to supply players past the normal maximum ammo for their gadgets. We can also allow progress towards the overcharge to tick up without the ammo box, then instantly apply it upon interacting with an ammo gadget.

We are also looking at smoke grenades, and whether a single grenade covers enough area. We may tweak their effect to provide better cover from each grenade.

Of course we are open to your feedback and suggestions, and would love to have a constructive discussion around Ammo 2.0 and the vision for it. Nothing is set in stone, and this is a great opportunity to influence the direction of the game."

"Grenade timers for most types will be increasing pretty substantially. As an example the timer for Frags will be increasing from 36s to 49s.

The crossbow and mortar have actually had part of Ammo 2.0 active on them since their introduction, they regenerate their ammo. Their timers will be updated as well to work with the new version of the ammo box."

Comments

  • SaintBrandon88
    1320 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited March 2017
    So much complexity when a simple solution would have been to just increase the resupply time from ammo crates.

    But increasing the resupply time from ammo crates would make ammo crates useless to many players that simply want grenades. Their point is that if they make resupply from ammo crates a positive experience, ie, the player gets a grenade quickly, more people will want them on the battlefield and in turn more people will drop them.

    Adding a mechanic that would force people to go to a crate to even get their basic ammo needs filled is an interesting concept.

    I'm not talking about some incredibly drastic increase. As it was, you could literally just stand there and have an unlimited amount of grenades in a matter of seconds. The problem that I gather is that there are too many grenades being thrown at choke-points. The way the new system is now, though, is that everyone who reaches those points now has a freshly supplied grenade and is the cause for 50 being thrown at one time.

    Adding a slight increase to the crate resupply would make people have to wait around a little longer if they just had to have a grenade, meaning that some would opt not to wait. This in turn would decrease grenade usage and reduce the "I have to throw a grenade first to have a chance" mentality that we are seeing..

    Sure, further increasing the automatic grenade resupply will work, too, but it's just an unnecessary step that will devalue the support class even more. Even if ammo crates can speed up the regeneration of grenades, the fact is now you don't have to rely on them. Just wait a little while, and you get another grenade to chunk.
  • badsitrep
    494 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    So much complexity when a simple solution would have been to just increase the resupply time from ammo crates.

    What do you think the devs just did? The 6s reload was extended to 12s.

    And nowhere in their statement did DICE say an extension of the reload time was off the table.

    This is a complex problem that requires a complex solution, as DICE and others have explained. In BF4, rather than resupply grenades via a support player, players would just suicide to get grenades because of how long the resupply timer was and how unreliable teammates are.
  • SaintBrandon88
    1320 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    badsitrep wrote: »
    So much complexity when a simple solution would have been to just increase the resupply time from ammo crates.

    What do you think the devs just did? The 6s reload was extended to 12s.

    And nowhere in their statement did DICE say an extension of the reload time was off the table.

    This is a complex problem that requires a complex solution, as DICE and others have explained. In BF4, rather than resupply grenades via a support player, players would just suicide to get grenades because of how long the resupply timer was and how unreliable teammates are.

    What they just did, and what we are talking about, is they implemented an entirely new auto-regenerate system that many are against. As for the players who want a grenade so bad that they suicide, how about not letting them spawn back directly on the action, rather at a nearby flag. It's not like they're that interested in helping the team anyway.
  • AWOLCricket
    28 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Christ, finish developing the bleeping game before you release it.
  • BreakYourseIf
    143 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Best thing EA could do is ditch DICE and find someone who will take the game back to its roots.
    Because this COD direction DICE are taking isn't going to end well.
    I mean, there hasn't been a good COD game since Modern Warefare so when try to go in that direction anyway?
    Idiots.
  • Ram1c
    4167 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    After reading this I'm so happy I didn't buy premium. I'm just sad that I'm going to lose this series to the likes of a bunch of 12 year olds who like nothing but run and gun action (cod fanbase).
  • GoogIeDocs
    7 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Dudes, everyone is content with the game, except for the grenade spam. Reduce that and people will be happy. We do not need the rest :)
  • DrJambo
    4 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    I think it's a combination of things:

    1. Maps are designed to have choke points; some them are far too extreme - think Argonne. This feeds the spamming grenades mentality because the maps promote much better chances of randomly landing kills.
    2. Some classes start out with far too many explosives.
    3. The anti tank gear is far too versatile. BF2 had it right with the engineer class where their rocket launcher was literally rubbish vs infantry.
  • theONEFORCE
    2843 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    So much complexity when a simple solution would have been to just increase the resupply time from ammo crates.

    But increasing the resupply time from ammo crates would make ammo crates useless to many players that simply want grenades. Their point is that if they make resupply from ammo crates a positive experience, ie, the player gets a grenade quickly, more people will want them on the battlefield and in turn more people will drop them.

    Adding a mechanic that would force people to go to a crate to even get their basic ammo needs filled is an interesting concept.

    I'm only talking about grenade resupply time from ammo crates, not general ammunition. It's so simple that I'm dumbfounded by them implementing an entirely new system that many are against.

    Edit: sorry, I see what you're saying. I'm not talking about some incredibly drastic increase. As it was, you could literally just stand there and have an unlimited amount of grenades in a matter of seconds. The problem that I gather is that there are too many grenades being thrown at choke-points. The way the new system is now, though, is that everyone who reaches those points now has a freshly supplied grenade and is the cause for 50 being thrown at one time. Adding a slight increase to the crate resupply would make people have to wait around a little longer if they just had to have a grenade, meaning that some would opt not to wait. This in turn would decrease grenade usage.

    I don't think they'll ever be a fix for choke points. When they run out of grenades, they pull out rockets, when they run out rockets they redeploy. The real choke point spammers are going to find a way to spam.
  • MikeManiac61
    718 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Suppression is going to halt resupply? Just...why? I feel as if they're not listening to one word some of us have said. Just a breeze of wind through the ears.
  • Zer0Cod3x
    246 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    This a great step in the right direction. It should never be faster and easier to redeploy than to resupply, which is currently the case. It also makes the game far less frustrating, as it is no longer necessary to chase around clueless Supports.

    All DICE needs to do is to bring this to primary weapon ammo and it will be perfect.
  • SJGLimpalot
    137 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Were Dice collectively dropped on their as a baby?
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