Why even play the objective as a scout?

Comments

  • MayorMarionBarry
    2045 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    I wonder if @loqtrall realizes that he's arguing against a TTK re-balance that DOESN"T EXIST YET.

    Not only is it not in the retail game, the CTE version is being completely re-worked and many are skeptical that it will ever see the light of day.

    You're fighting windmills, dude.

    As it is, there is no TTK re-balance.

    Half of your argument is against a phantasm of an idea that might not ever make it to retail and certainly will not make it to retail in its former iteration.

  • TehDukeOfNukem
    752 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Loqtrall wrote: »

    Yeah, the guy is getting totally hysterical chasing the windmill of muh poor PTFO scout.

    TTK is by definition a best case scenario calculation. When we start to factor in hitrate it gets even worse for non-Scouts

    Bolt actions are the only weapons in the game with perfect accuracy (i.e. zero base spread), thus have a nominal hitrate of 100% when user error is factored out. The only thing that slows down the theoretical TTK of the aformetioned meta is the Frommer's base spread of 0.4, which doesn't even come into play until something like 50m+. Even if you hipfire the Frommer, you're good out to midrange in terms of getting a guaranteed hit on the torso with the first round.

    By contrast, try actually getting a 100% hitrate out of, say the Automatico or Parabellum with their massive SIPS and Horizontal recoil (and the latter's SIPS FSM as with all LMGs sending the 2nd-5th or so bullets into orbit). Even in CQB it becomes a problem past practically melee distances, so the "theoretical" TTK for these weapons isn't normally reached even with perfect aim and Vrecoil compensation

    By contrast, it's comparatively easy to shoot-swap-shoot again in 400ms. The game queues your inputs, so you don't even need to time the 2nd shot precisely (any input within the swap window will fire the pistol as soon as the animation is ready), no recoil control is required. All one needs to do is aim well (or abuse auto aim where available), fire, press the swap button and fire button again while tracking the target as you would with any other weapon (but without the aformetioned recoil to contend with as in other weapons.

    Do we have any more excuses for bad snipers and their poor play?

    That's absolute BS. Approaching a single weapon TTK and weapon combo TTK in the exact same manner when the target is right in front of you is nonsense. Especially when that weapons best case TTK beats out the time it takes to swap to a sidearm, let alone the time it takes to physically get the kill.

    There's no way if you were 1v1ing yourself from 10m away with an smg, that you'd best yourself with a rifle/sidearm combo straight up - even if you were allowed to pre-aim at the chest with both classes for the best case TTK.

    Were discussing how pop n swap combos actually work in the game - not how fast a literal superhuman would be able to pull off a kill. There's no statistic that supports your argument, because you can't calculate exact statistics for a weapon combo TTK. Instead of even attempting to calculate how the combo would actually perform in game, you claim its TTK is theoretically as fast as you can swap the frommer. You've said nothing that actually proves a rifle+frommer combo can achieve a 400ms TTK in the actual game, whereas that's perfectly possible if you land every shot with automatic weapons, which you barely have to aim in cqb. I've hip fired people with the BAR and MP18 at considerably long ranges for hip fire. Hell, I hip fire people with the RSC in cqb all the time. You only have to sustain 5-6 shots max at that range, the notion it's even difficult to hit all shots needed to kill in cqb with any automatic weapons is so nonsensical I can't even take it seriously.

    If you were allowed to pre-aim at a targets chest, the TTK by default would still be 600~ms or longer solely based on the fact you have to react to press the swap button and the average human reaction time is over 200ms - and the frommer swap time alone is 400ms. You can't just act like the action of pressing the swap button doesn't calculate into how that combo performs in game, even in the hands of someone with 100% flawless accuracy, because that WILL add hundreds of milliseconds onto the TTK, even if you have the fastest recorded reaction time in human history. That's a statistic that can't be tracked on BF Tracker. That's on top of the milliseconds added, however little, for the game to register the fact you actually pressed that button, which is also not instantaneous.

    600ms is still a slower TTK than the majority of weapons in the game. And there's very likely nothing you can say to factually dispute how that time is added to the TTK of that combo by default in any situation. If you're using that combo, the TTK being 600ms or higher is a given for the vast majority of people who play this game, and even for the people faster than the majority, you'd only decrease that TTK by a few dozen milliseconds.

    You could perform every other action as quick as virtually possible and land every shot, but the swap button press and swap time will STILL net you a 600ms or higher TTK minimum on average.

    I'm willing to bet there's not a single person on this forum that could achieve a 400ms TTK with a rifle and frommer in cqb in an actual, active game - let alone consistently.

    Lol wtf are you on about "200 ms reaction time"? How is that relevant to performing pre-memorised button combos? Have you ever played a fighting game, because pretty much everything you do at a basic level is much harder than the simple act of pressing two buttons at near the same time to fire and swap. Or do you have only 1 finger and no thumbs or something?

    Now, the target tracking and 2nd shot with the frommer requires reaction, but you have a 400ms window before its ready to fire. What's more, the game queues your inputs so all you have to do is press the fire key at any point within that time and it will fire as soon as the animation finishes. Maybe centenarians can't manage that, but normal humans should be able to.

    There's no difference in TTK between boltgun-frommer combo and any automatic which can't be compensated for save Hrecoil and spread, which affects the non Scout weapons far more in any event.

    I can assure you if I faced myself in CQB with an MP18 or SMG08 I'd win 9/10 times, with the other being mistakes. Automatico/Hellriegel would have better chances, but if they miss a single shot due to spread/Hrecoil, I still have a great chance of winning the engagement. The fact that Scout is so close to the CQC class, yet is able to dominate Mid-Long at the same time is absurd, and this is why the TTK shift is needed.


    ^dude doesn't even play BF1 regularly and can still dominate objectives with ease. Get gud.
  • ZumbiSnatch
    2688 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Loqtrall wrote: »

    Yeah, the guy is getting totally hysterical chasing the windmill of muh poor PTFO scout.

    TTK is by definition a best case scenario calculation. When we start to factor in hitrate it gets even worse for non-Scouts

    Bolt actions are the only weapons in the game with perfect accuracy (i.e. zero base spread), thus have a nominal hitrate of 100% when user error is factored out. The only thing that slows down the theoretical TTK of the aformetioned meta is the Frommer's base spread of 0.4, which doesn't even come into play until something like 50m+. Even if you hipfire the Frommer, you're good out to midrange in terms of getting a guaranteed hit on the torso with the first round.

    By contrast, try actually getting a 100% hitrate out of, say the Automatico or Parabellum with their massive SIPS and Horizontal recoil (and the latter's SIPS FSM as with all LMGs sending the 2nd-5th or so bullets into orbit). Even in CQB it becomes a problem past practically melee distances, so the "theoretical" TTK for these weapons isn't normally reached even with perfect aim and Vrecoil compensation

    By contrast, it's comparatively easy to shoot-swap-shoot again in 400ms. The game queues your inputs, so you don't even need to time the 2nd shot precisely (any input within the swap window will fire the pistol as soon as the animation is ready), no recoil control is required. All one needs to do is aim well (or abuse auto aim where available), fire, press the swap button and fire button again while tracking the target as you would with any other weapon (but without the aformetioned recoil to contend with as in other weapons.

    Do we have any more excuses for bad snipers and their poor play?

    That's absolute BS. Approaching a single weapon TTK and weapon combo TTK in the exact same manner when the target is right in front of you is nonsense. Especially when that weapons best case TTK beats out the time it takes to swap to a sidearm, let alone the time it takes to physically get the kill.

    There's no way if you were 1v1ing yourself from 10m away with an smg, that you'd best yourself with a rifle/sidearm combo straight up - even if you were allowed to pre-aim at the chest with both classes for the best case TTK.

    Were discussing how pop n swap combos actually work in the game - not how fast a literal superhuman would be able to pull off a kill. There's no statistic that supports your argument, because you can't calculate exact statistics for a weapon combo TTK. Instead of even attempting to calculate how the combo would actually perform in game, you claim its TTK is theoretically as fast as you can swap the frommer. You've said nothing that actually proves a rifle+frommer combo can achieve a 400ms TTK in the actual game, whereas that's perfectly possible if you land every shot with automatic weapons, which you barely have to aim in cqb. I've hip fired people with the BAR and MP18 at considerably long ranges for hip fire. Hell, I hip fire people with the RSC in cqb all the time. You only have to sustain 5-6 shots max at that range, the notion it's even difficult to hit all shots needed to kill in cqb with any automatic weapons is so nonsensical I can't even take it seriously.

    If you were allowed to pre-aim at a targets chest, the TTK by default would still be 600~ms or longer solely based on the fact you have to react to press the swap button and the average human reaction time is over 200ms - and the frommer swap time alone is 400ms. You can't just act like the action of pressing the swap button doesn't calculate into how that combo performs in game, even in the hands of someone with 100% flawless accuracy, because that WILL add hundreds of milliseconds onto the TTK, even if you have the fastest recorded reaction time in human history. That's a statistic that can't be tracked on BF Tracker. That's on top of the milliseconds added, however little, for the game to register the fact you actually pressed that button, which is also not instantaneous.

    600ms is still a slower TTK than the majority of weapons in the game. And there's very likely nothing you can say to factually dispute how that time is added to the TTK of that combo by default in any situation. If you're using that combo, the TTK being 600ms or higher is a given for the vast majority of people who play this game, and even for the people faster than the majority, you'd only decrease that TTK by a few dozen milliseconds.

    You could perform every other action as quick as virtually possible and land every shot, but the swap button press and swap time will STILL net you a 600ms or higher TTK minimum on average.

    I'm willing to bet there's not a single person on this forum that could achieve a 400ms TTK with a rifle and frommer in cqb in an actual, active game - let alone consistently.

    Lol wtf are you on about "200 ms reaction time"? How is that relevant to performing pre-memorised button combos? Have you ever played a fighting game, because pretty much everything you do at a basic level is much harder than the simple act of pressing two buttons at near the same time to fire and swap. Or do you have only 1 finger and no thumbs or something?

    Now, the target tracking and 2nd shot with the frommer requires reaction, but you have a 400ms window before its ready to fire. What's more, the game queues your inputs so all you have to do is press the fire key at any point within that time and it will fire as soon as the animation finishes. Maybe centenarians can't manage that, but normal humans should be able to.

    There's no difference in TTK between boltgun-frommer combo and any automatic which can't be compensated for save Hrecoil and spread, which affects the non Scout weapons far more in any event.

    I can assure you if I faced myself in CQB with an MP18 or SMG08 I'd win 9/10 times, with the other being mistakes. Automatico/Hellriegel would have better chances, but if they miss a single shot due to spread/Hrecoil, I still have a great chance of winning the engagement. The fact that Scout is so close to the CQC class, yet is able to dominate Mid-Long at the same time is absurd, and this is why the TTK shift is needed.


    ^dude doesn't even play BF1 regularly and can still dominate objectives with ease. Get gud.

    Good clip but this doesn’t help your argument that guy is playing with a KBM a lot easier to snipe and play the objective. Also even if it was on console he is using the marksman variant which I believe has no aim assist. It’s a large learning curve to do these things on console but still possible with tons of practice.
  • buddyboy911
    71 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    I also believe that this change disproportionately affects 5/6 round close range SLRs such as the 8.35 and aggressive scouts over automatic weapons.

    .35 Marksman, no AA.

    Dude, you are far far from the average player on the game. So using you as an example just wouldnt work. Of course youre going to shred people.
    I just like how this guy is complaining about complainers in a thread he made in the first place, to complain about changes to auto rotation. Then making wild blanket statements on all snipers to fit in with his own and contradicting himself like "I like how anything you dont like is a "crutch". I have news for you, if everyone is on crutches, it's still a level playing field. Sorry to disappoint you". He does realize that that its not like only a nerf to AA to only snipers but all guns right?

    ps. op read my last post to you. I explain why AA and even slowdown hurts one ability to snipe efficiently. If you are able to aim at a certain level than yes AA will actually be hurting you more than helping- your theoretical output in the game is capped. There is a reason you will not find any good players or youtubers that have AA on- they could care a less if something is cheap if its in the game, when you play for money people will use all the best viable option and yet will not use things that is detrimental.

    Also I do not think I have mentioned you should get good with a scope- either marks or sniper. While I dabble with infantry snipers some what here and there- I 99% play with either a marksmen or sniper. I could give you tips but honestly the best guide I have seen is one from xarcotix. Ill link you it. While its true I do not really feel it counts to being an aggressive scout/sniper if you sport a non scoped rifle- if you put in the work to get the hang of scoped rifles you will be much better in being able to kill people no matter the distance.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=d-brVf6QmNc

    I like how you're complaining about my complaining about complaining. And on and on we go.

    As I have stated, multiple times, that even though the nerf is universal, it affects lower ammo count weapons disproportionately with respect to automatic weapons

    I have accepted certain points from the opposition but have so far been talking to a wall. I have tried to be courteous but have simply been met with skill snobbery and glorified replies of "git gud". This thread is now pointless.

    @LOLGotYerTags and @StarscreamUK if you feel the same way, I would like to request a thread closure before things turn sour as they have previously in other threads.

    I took time out of my day to give some helpful tips and information for you that I wish I had picked up earlier when starting bf1 sniping. Thanks for indirectly calling my posts pointless though. You obviously do not know what being "courteous" is.
  • Gforce81
    3666 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Omg everyone, can we just breathe for a second, yowzers.

    Hoo-saaaah, kum bay yah, and things.
  • ashar_saleem121
    1399 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    I also believe that this change disproportionately affects 5/6 round close range SLRs such as the 8.35 and aggressive scouts over automatic weapons.

    .35 Marksman, no AA.

    Dude, you are far far from the average player on the game. So using you as an example just wouldnt work. Of course youre going to shred people.
    I just like how this guy is complaining about complainers in a thread he made in the first place, to complain about changes to auto rotation. Then making wild blanket statements on all snipers to fit in with his own and contradicting himself like "I like how anything you dont like is a "crutch". I have news for you, if everyone is on crutches, it's still a level playing field. Sorry to disappoint you". He does realize that that its not like only a nerf to AA to only snipers but all guns right?

    ps. op read my last post to you. I explain why AA and even slowdown hurts one ability to snipe efficiently. If you are able to aim at a certain level than yes AA will actually be hurting you more than helping- your theoretical output in the game is capped. There is a reason you will not find any good players or youtubers that have AA on- they could care a less if something is cheap if its in the game, when you play for money people will use all the best viable option and yet will not use things that is detrimental.

    Also I do not think I have mentioned you should get good with a scope- either marks or sniper. While I dabble with infantry snipers some what here and there- I 99% play with either a marksmen or sniper. I could give you tips but honestly the best guide I have seen is one from xarcotix. Ill link you it. While its true I do not really feel it counts to being an aggressive scout/sniper if you sport a non scoped rifle- if you put in the work to get the hang of scoped rifles you will be much better in being able to kill people no matter the distance.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=d-brVf6QmNc

    I like how you're complaining about my complaining about complaining. And on and on we go.

    As I have stated, multiple times, that even though the nerf is universal, it affects lower ammo count weapons disproportionately with respect to automatic weapons

    I have accepted certain points from the opposition but have so far been talking to a wall. I have tried to be courteous but have simply been met with skill snobbery and glorified replies of "git gud". This thread is now pointless.

    @LOLGotYerTags and @StarscreamUK if you feel the same way, I would like to request a thread closure before things turn sour as they have previously in other threads.

    I took time out of my day to give some helpful tips and information for you that I wish I had picked up earlier when starting bf1 sniping. Thanks for indirectly calling my posts pointless though. You obviously do not know what being "courteous" is.

    I am not calling your post pointless and my apologies if it seemed that way. I was trying to say that having the same conversation with neither side providing any further talking points but instead just re-iterating the same subjective view points previously stated multiple times was not a contructive thread anymore in my opinion.
  • TheGM86
    939 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2017
    I also believe that this change disproportionately affects 5/6 round close range SLRs such as the 8.35 and aggressive scouts over automatic weapons.

    .35 Marksman, no AA.

    Dude, you are far far from the average player on the game. So using you as an example just wouldnt work. Of course youre going to shred people.
    I just like how this guy is complaining about complainers in a thread he made in the first place, to complain about changes to auto rotation. Then making wild blanket statements on all snipers to fit in with his own and contradicting himself like "I like how anything you dont like is a "crutch". I have news for you, if everyone is on crutches, it's still a level playing field. Sorry to disappoint you". He does realize that that its not like only a nerf to AA to only snipers but all guns right?

    ps. op read my last post to you. I explain why AA and even slowdown hurts one ability to snipe efficiently. If you are able to aim at a certain level than yes AA will actually be hurting you more than helping- your theoretical output in the game is capped. There is a reason you will not find any good players or youtubers that have AA on- they could care a less if something is cheap if its in the game, when you play for money people will use all the best viable option and yet will not use things that is detrimental.

    Also I do not think I have mentioned you should get good with a scope- either marks or sniper. While I dabble with infantry snipers some what here and there- I 99% play with either a marksmen or sniper. I could give you tips but honestly the best guide I have seen is one from xarcotix. Ill link you it. While its true I do not really feel it counts to being an aggressive scout/sniper if you sport a non scoped rifle- if you put in the work to get the hang of scoped rifles you will be much better in being able to kill people no matter the distance.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=d-brVf6QmNc

    I like how you're complaining about my complaining about complaining. And on and on we go.

    As I have stated, multiple times, that even though the nerf is universal, it affects lower ammo count weapons disproportionately with respect to automatic weapons

    I have accepted certain points from the opposition but have so far been talking to a wall. I have tried to be courteous but have simply been met with skill snobbery and glorified replies of "git gud". This thread is now pointless.

    @LOLGotYerTags and @StarscreamUK if you feel the same way, I would like to request a thread closure before things turn sour as they have previously in other threads.

    I took time out of my day to give some helpful tips and information for you that I wish I had picked up earlier when starting bf1 sniping. Thanks for indirectly calling my posts pointless though. You obviously do not know what being "courteous" is.

    I am not calling your post pointless and my apologies if it seemed that way. I was trying to say that having the same conversation with neither side providing any further talking points but instead just re-iterating the same subjective view points previously stated multiple times was not a contructive thread anymore in my opinion.

    You seem to be implying your side has a equal footing and should at least be taken into consideration. It isn't and it won't.
    Post edited by TheGM86 on
  • ashar_saleem121
    1399 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    TheGM86 wrote: »
    I also believe that this change disproportionately affects 5/6 round close range SLRs such as the 8.35 and aggressive scouts over automatic weapons.

    .35 Marksman, no AA.

    Dude, you are far far from the average player on the game. So using you as an example just wouldnt work. Of course youre going to shred people.
    I just like how this guy is complaining about complainers in a thread he made in the first place, to complain about changes to auto rotation. Then making wild blanket statements on all snipers to fit in with his own and contradicting himself like "I like how anything you dont like is a "crutch". I have news for you, if everyone is on crutches, it's still a level playing field. Sorry to disappoint you". He does realize that that its not like only a nerf to AA to only snipers but all guns right?

    ps. op read my last post to you. I explain why AA and even slowdown hurts one ability to snipe efficiently. If you are able to aim at a certain level than yes AA will actually be hurting you more than helping- your theoretical output in the game is capped. There is a reason you will not find any good players or youtubers that have AA on- they could care a less if something is cheap if its in the game, when you play for money people will use all the best viable option and yet will not use things that is detrimental.

    Also I do not think I have mentioned you should get good with a scope- either marks or sniper. While I dabble with infantry snipers some what here and there- I 99% play with either a marksmen or sniper. I could give you tips but honestly the best guide I have seen is one from xarcotix. Ill link you it. While its true I do not really feel it counts to being an aggressive scout/sniper if you sport a non scoped rifle- if you put in the work to get the hang of scoped rifles you will be much better in being able to kill people no matter the distance.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=d-brVf6QmNc

    I like how you're complaining about my complaining about complaining. And on and on we go.

    As I have stated, multiple times, that even though the nerf is universal, it affects lower ammo count weapons disproportionately with respect to automatic weapons

    I have accepted certain points from the opposition but have so far been talking to a wall. I have tried to be courteous but have simply been met with skill snobbery and glorified replies of "git gud". This thread is now pointless.

    @LOLGotYerTags and @StarscreamUK if you feel the same way, I would like to request a thread closure before things turn sour as they have previously in other threads.

    I took time out of my day to give some helpful tips and information for you that I wish I had picked up earlier when starting bf1 sniping. Thanks for indirectly calling my posts pointless though. You obviously do not know what being "courteous" is.

    I am not calling your post pointless and my apologies if it seemed that way. I was trying to say that having the same conversation with neither side providing any further talking points but instead just re-iterating the same subjective view points previously stated multiple times was not a contructive thread anymore in my opinion.

    You seem to be implying your side has a equal footing at should at least be taken into consideration. It isn't and it won't.

    Thats your opinion. I would disagree. But that's neither here nor there. We will not see eye to eye and that is fine.
  • MarxistDictator
    5340 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2017
    Post eater strikes again.


    Anyway, [email protected]% hit rate with the BAR (since that's what's needed for 4 kills a mag). Even with spread and recoil affecting less in CQB (read as: still affecting) just the limits of an automatic gun make that impossible to achieve while simultaneously achieving that fabled low TTK you keep gassing on about (that is still very infrequently achieved by automatics in game). But that is also the crux of your argument, since all CQB engagements boil down to simple automatic weapon TTK with 100% of rounds hitting Scout is at a disdavantage because he loses to the BAR with the seriously lamely easy rifle hit + pistol hit combo. Well, using this same stupid criteria the Scout also wins against every other Support gun, and here you are whining that's it's not easy enough to play or powerful enough? Lol

    There's ignorance and then there's just plain childishness. Wanting ghetto shotgun performance back 'because muh ptfo' is about the most lamest excuse I think I've ever seen on these boards. New TTK also significantly changes the behavior of LMGs/SMGs - LMGs have almost no close range aptitude while SMGs lose any ability to kill at range due to increased recoil/spread vs negligibly higher min damage. There's way more in the works than just TTK, though it's obvious to anyone that reads your posts that you have way too much time to dump into pointless theories and essays about what it means to ptfo as scout instead of just playing the game.

    Where 20 rounds and an almost 3 second tactical reload/over 3 second empty reload are certainly disadvantages for a gun like the BAR, the LMG with the shortest uptime window when loaded and no bipod on any option that confers close range dominance as well. Yet apparently it shouldn't have a good chance vs a scout according to you. Yeah this is the pro scout delusional view of the game balance.
  • Sixclicks
    5075 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2017
    Oh look, Marxist is back to lecture us on how easy aggressive scout is even though it's his worst performing infantry class. If it's so easy, then I'd expect a high skill player such as yourself to be absolutely dominating with scout rifles, but you're not. You're dominating with Support and Assault weapons instead - the ones you want buffed.

  • MarxistDictator
    5340 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2017
    Yeah that must be why I play medic almost twice as much as assault and still more than support. I also choose to play those classes to support the team and control the outcome of the round, something just being really good at killing doesn't allow.

    But whatever bash away troll you have no substance. That was a very well crafted argument you're totally dismissing to stat bash because your camp got roasted so bad.

    You only use two assault or support guns anyway, clearly you missed the point of guns 2.0 hard. As are most Scout mains whining that somehow fixing the gameplay issues with other classes translates into a scout nerf ignoring the advantages he has because they should also be present in close range. Basically totally ignoring the premise of a class based game, gtfo

    For the record, I only use the Scout class to kill other scouts in their base, so ofc it would have a lower KPM and SPM. But you just read whatever you want to read without thinking like most Scout players lol
  • TheGM86
    939 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Sixclicks wrote: »
    Oh look, Marxist is back to lecture us on how easy aggressive scout is even though it's his worst performing infantry class. If it's so easy, then I'd expect a high skill player such as yourself to be absolutely dominating with scout rifles, but you're not. You're dominating with Support and Assault weapons instead - the ones you want buffed.

    giphy.gif
    wrong discussion, chips.
  • Sixclicks
    5075 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2017
    Yeah that must be why I play medic almost twice as much as assault and still more than support. I also choose to play those classes to support the team and control the outcome of the round, something just being really good at killing doesn't allow.

    But whatever bash away troll you have no substance. That was a very well crafted argument you're totally dismissing to stat bash because your camp got roasted so bad.

    You only use two assault or support guns anyway, clearly you missed the point of guns 2.0 hard. As are most Scout mains whining that somehow fixing the gameplay issues with other classes translates into a scout nerf ignoring the advantages he has because they should also be present in close range. Basically totally ignoring the premise of a class based game, gtfo

    Rofl. "Stat bashing"... that's totally why I called you a high skilled player. I'm simply pointing out the flaw in your position that scout is so easy despite it being your lowest performing class. You do better with every other class, but somehow they're the ones that are struggling and need a TTK buff. Back your insinuations with your stats... you can't.

    I use a lot of guns. Why do you think there aren't a few at the top of my list with thousands of kills? Because I switch it up frequently. Sure, I have my favorites. As does anyone.

    Also, I haven't touched an Automatico since maybe January. My Automatico stats are nothing more than a testament to how braindead easy of a gun that thing is. Just over the past few days I've used:
    Arisaka Infantry, G98 Marksman, M.95 Infantry, Martini Henry Infantry, Veterlli Infantry, Mosin Nagant Infantry, Mosin Nagant Marksman, MG15 n.A LW, BAR Storm, Chauchat LW, Perino LW, Madsen Storm, 12g Extended, RSC Infantry, AL 8 .35 Marksman, and whatever else I might be forgetting.
    Plus a multitude of pistols. Some of which were for assignments. Some of which I just unlocked and only had limited time with although I plan on using them a lot more. I focused on unlocking the DLC scout weapons I don't have, and now I'll be focusing on unlocking the support ones.
    For the record, I only use the Scout class to kill other scouts in their base, so ofc it would have a lower KPM and SPM. But you just read whatever you want to read without thinking like most Scout players lol

    That's a lame excuse. You're claiming aggressive scout is easy, but now you're claiming you only use scout for countersniping... So are you admitting you don't even PTFO with scout? Then how can you know how easy it is?

    Look, some LMGs and Assault weapons do need a buff. I never argued that they don't. However, an across the board TTK shift is a terrible idea that will absolutely push more scouts to the hills rather than fighting for the objective. That's bad for the whole team.

    Your argument about accuracy is right though. You can't take LMGs as having 100% accuracy because they don't. Still, missing a couple of rounds with an LMG is no big deal. You're firing 7.5+ rounds per second. Miss with your scout rifle, and you're dead almost guaranteed against any competent player. So for scout you need to be 100% accurate to compete. That's a pretty high expectation to have. Especially for the average player.
    As are most Scout mains whining that somehow fixing the gameplay issues with other classes translates into a scout nerf ignoring the advantages he has because they should also be present in close range. Basically totally ignoring the premise of a class based game, gtfo

    So you don't want scouts to PTFO? They should just sit on a hill and be useless I guess so that everyone can berate them for not PTFO'ing while also saying they don't belong at close range which most objectives are.
  • ashar_saleem121
    1399 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Sixclicks wrote: »
    Yeah that must be why I play medic almost twice as much as assault and still more than support. I also choose to play those classes to support the team and control the outcome of the round, something just being really good at killing doesn't allow.

    But whatever bash away troll you have no substance. That was a very well crafted argument you're totally dismissing to stat bash because your camp got roasted so bad.

    You only use two assault or support guns anyway, clearly you missed the point of guns 2.0 hard. As are most Scout mains whining that somehow fixing the gameplay issues with other classes translates into a scout nerf ignoring the advantages he has because they should also be present in close range. Basically totally ignoring the premise of a class based game, gtfo

    Rofl. "Stat bashing"... that's totally why I called you a high skilled player. I'm simply pointing out the flaw in your position that scout is so easy despite it being your lowest performing class. You do better with every other class, but somehow they're the ones that are struggling and need a TTK buff. Back your insinuations with your stats... you can't.

    I use a lot of guns. Why do you think there aren't a few at the top of my list with thousands of kills? Because I switch it up frequently. Sure, I have my favorites. As does anyone.

    Also, I haven't touched an Automatico since maybe January. My Automatico stats are nothing more than a testament to how braindead easy of a gun that thing is. Just over the past few days I've used:
    Arisaka Infantry, G98 Marksman, M.95 Infantry, Martini Henry Infantry, Veterlli Infantry, Mosin Nagant Infantry, Mosin Nagant Marksman, MG15 n.A LW, BAR Storm, Chauchat LW, Perino LW, Madsen Storm, 12g Extended, RSC Infantry, AL 8 .35 Marksman, and whatever else I might be forgetting.
    Plus a multitude of pistols. Some of which were for assignments. Some of which I just unlocked and only had limited time with although I plan on using them a lot more. I focused on unlocking the DLC scout weapons I don't have, and now I'll be focusing on unlocking the support ones.
    For the record, I only use the Scout class to kill other scouts in their base, so ofc it would have a lower KPM and SPM. But you just read whatever you want to read without thinking like most Scout players lol

    That's a lame excuse. You're claiming aggressive scout is easy, but now you're claiming you only use scout for countersniping... So are you admitting you don't even PTFO with scout? Then how can you know how easy it is?

    Look, some LMGs and Assault weapons do need a buff. I never argued that they don't. However, an across the board TTK shift is a terrible idea that will absolutely push more scouts to the hills rather than fighting for the objective. That's bad for the whole team.

    Your argument about accuracy is right though. You can't take LMGs as having 100% accuracy because they don't. Still, missing a couple of rounds with an LMG is no big deal. You're firing 7.5+ rounds per second. Miss with your scout rifle, and you're dead almost guaranteed against any competent player. So for scout you need to be 100% accurate to compete. That's a pretty high expectation to have. Especially for the average player.

    This. That is why the AA reduction and TTK shift affects scout and low round SLRs more significantly than high ammo weapons. It's just common sense. If it affects one class more than others, that would be an indirect nerf to the class as a whole.
  • x_Undaunted_x
    3766 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Sixclicks wrote: »
    Yeah that must be why I play medic almost twice as much as assault and still more than support. I also choose to play those classes to support the team and control the outcome of the round, something just being really good at killing doesn't allow.

    But whatever bash away troll you have no substance. That was a very well crafted argument you're totally dismissing to stat bash because your camp got roasted so bad.

    You only use two assault or support guns anyway, clearly you missed the point of guns 2.0 hard. As are most Scout mains whining that somehow fixing the gameplay issues with other classes translates into a scout nerf ignoring the advantages he has because they should also be present in close range. Basically totally ignoring the premise of a class based game, gtfo

    Rofl. "Stat bashing"... that's totally why I called you a high skilled player. I'm simply pointing out the flaw in your position that scout is so easy despite it being your lowest performing class. You do better with every other class, but somehow they're the ones that are struggling and need a TTK buff. Back your insinuations with your stats... you can't.

    I use a lot of guns. Why do you think there aren't a few at the top of my list with thousands of kills? Because I switch it up frequently. Sure, I have my favorites. As does anyone.

    Also, I haven't touched an Automatico since maybe January. My Automatico stats are nothing more than a testament to how braindead easy of a gun that thing is. Just over the past few days I've used:
    Arisaka Infantry, G98 Marksman, M.95 Infantry, Martini Henry Infantry, Veterlli Infantry, Mosin Nagant Infantry, Mosin Nagant Marksman, MG15 n.A LW, BAR Storm, Chauchat LW, Perino LW, Madsen Storm, 12g Extended, RSC Infantry, AL 8 .35 Marksman, and whatever else I might be forgetting.
    Plus a multitude of pistols. Some of which were for assignments. Some of which I just unlocked and only had limited time with although I plan on using them a lot more. I focused on unlocking the DLC scout weapons I don't have, and now I'll be focusing on unlocking the support ones.
    For the record, I only use the Scout class to kill other scouts in their base, so ofc it would have a lower KPM and SPM. But you just read whatever you want to read without thinking like most Scout players lol

    That's a lame excuse. You're claiming aggressive scout is easy, but now you're claiming you only use scout for countersniping... So are you admitting you don't even PTFO with scout? Then how can you know how easy it is?

    Look, some LMGs and Assault weapons do need a buff. I never argued that they don't. However, an across the board TTK shift is a terrible idea that will absolutely push more scouts to the hills rather than fighting for the objective. That's bad for the whole team.

    Your argument about accuracy is right though. You can't take LMGs as having 100% accuracy because they don't. Still, missing a couple of rounds with an LMG is no big deal. You're firing 7.5+ rounds per second. Miss with your scout rifle, and you're dead almost guaranteed against any competent player. So for scout you need to be 100% accurate to compete. That's a pretty high expectation to have. Especially for the average player.

    This. That is why the AA reduction and TTK shift affects scout and low round SLRs more significantly than high ammo weapons. It's just common sense. If it affects one class more than others, that would be an indirect nerf to the class as a whole.

    Just curious - have you guys voiced your concerns over the TTK changes on the cte reddit?
  • Sixclicks
    5075 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Sixclicks wrote: »
    Yeah that must be why I play medic almost twice as much as assault and still more than support. I also choose to play those classes to support the team and control the outcome of the round, something just being really good at killing doesn't allow.

    But whatever bash away troll you have no substance. That was a very well crafted argument you're totally dismissing to stat bash because your camp got roasted so bad.

    You only use two assault or support guns anyway, clearly you missed the point of guns 2.0 hard. As are most Scout mains whining that somehow fixing the gameplay issues with other classes translates into a scout nerf ignoring the advantages he has because they should also be present in close range. Basically totally ignoring the premise of a class based game, gtfo

    Rofl. "Stat bashing"... that's totally why I called you a high skilled player. I'm simply pointing out the flaw in your position that scout is so easy despite it being your lowest performing class. You do better with every other class, but somehow they're the ones that are struggling and need a TTK buff. Back your insinuations with your stats... you can't.

    I use a lot of guns. Why do you think there aren't a few at the top of my list with thousands of kills? Because I switch it up frequently. Sure, I have my favorites. As does anyone.

    Also, I haven't touched an Automatico since maybe January. My Automatico stats are nothing more than a testament to how braindead easy of a gun that thing is. Just over the past few days I've used:
    Arisaka Infantry, G98 Marksman, M.95 Infantry, Martini Henry Infantry, Veterlli Infantry, Mosin Nagant Infantry, Mosin Nagant Marksman, MG15 n.A LW, BAR Storm, Chauchat LW, Perino LW, Madsen Storm, 12g Extended, RSC Infantry, AL 8 .35 Marksman, and whatever else I might be forgetting.
    Plus a multitude of pistols. Some of which were for assignments. Some of which I just unlocked and only had limited time with although I plan on using them a lot more. I focused on unlocking the DLC scout weapons I don't have, and now I'll be focusing on unlocking the support ones.
    For the record, I only use the Scout class to kill other scouts in their base, so ofc it would have a lower KPM and SPM. But you just read whatever you want to read without thinking like most Scout players lol

    That's a lame excuse. You're claiming aggressive scout is easy, but now you're claiming you only use scout for countersniping... So are you admitting you don't even PTFO with scout? Then how can you know how easy it is?

    Look, some LMGs and Assault weapons do need a buff. I never argued that they don't. However, an across the board TTK shift is a terrible idea that will absolutely push more scouts to the hills rather than fighting for the objective. That's bad for the whole team.

    Your argument about accuracy is right though. You can't take LMGs as having 100% accuracy because they don't. Still, missing a couple of rounds with an LMG is no big deal. You're firing 7.5+ rounds per second. Miss with your scout rifle, and you're dead almost guaranteed against any competent player. So for scout you need to be 100% accurate to compete. That's a pretty high expectation to have. Especially for the average player.

    This. That is why the AA reduction and TTK shift affects scout and low round SLRs more significantly than high ammo weapons. It's just common sense. If it affects one class more than others, that would be an indirect nerf to the class as a whole.

    Absolutely. It's plain as day. Look at the M.95 for example, often considered the best PTFO scout rifle. Missing your first shot instantly adds 909 ms to your TTK. So if we don't include reaction time and do a pistol swap to finish the enemy, that's a total of 1309 ms minimum unless you always land that first shot. Also, that's assuming your pistol finishes them in one shot.
  • Sixclicks
    5075 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2017
    Just curious - have you guys voiced your concerns over the TTK changes on the cte reddit?

    Yes I have, although not within the past few weeks. I was the one who copied the Reddit post to this forum back when it was first proposed in September.
  • x_Undaunted_x
    3766 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Sixclicks wrote: »
    Just curious - have you guys voiced your concerns over the TTK changes on the cte reddit?

    Yes I have, although not within the past few weeks. I was the one who copied the Reddit post to this forum back when it was first proposed in September.
    If you feel the combination of changing the TTK along with the AA nerf is too much, you might want to consider posting there again. I'm not saying I agree with either side here, but the devs need to hear things like this because they may not be considering the compounding effect it could have. More info = better decision making.
  • MarxistDictator
    5340 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Yea but LMGs also don't kill in 1-2 hits so it really is relative. It takes a while to fire 7.5 shots with a gun like the Benet Mercie (1 second to be exact) but you need 5 to kill. Between the terrible shot bloom of most LMGs (you either get an accurate initial bloom or a large magazine in this kit) their low DPS really starts to become apparent.

    You're also the one who brought up stats, this isn't an excuse I'm making. Anyone who plays with me would agree with the notion that I really only play scout when we're on defense and the attackers totally gave up. Every other scenario I'm medic or support or if tanks demand assault. So it makes sense that when there's a low scoring scenario I'm pulling a lower average score lol. Apparently it's a conspiracy to like to play aggressively in a shooter game, the guns in the Scout class are very lacking in variety to me so it doesn't keep me engaged very long.

    And in new TTK LMGs have almost 500ms ADS times, so you guys clearly only played the broken model that just adjusted damage (lol) and not the one with adjusted recoil spread ADS times and other modifiers. Because there the LMGs do not run n gun destroy scout guns up close lol.

    Almost pointless to argue based solely on the first pass. The second pass was way better guns had a clear identity and scout and medic were clearly range dominant whereas the automatic guns had less range overall. All the run and gun dominating support complaints turned totally false.
  • Sixclicks
    5075 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2017
    And in new TTK LMGs have almost 500ms ADS times, so you guys clearly only played the broken model that just adjusted damage (lol) and not the one with adjusted recoil spread ADS times and other modifiers. Because there the LMGs do not run n gun destroy scout guns up close lol.

    Almost pointless to argue based solely on the first pass. The second pass was way better guns had a clear identity and scout and medic were clearly range dominant whereas the automatic guns had less range overall. All the run and gun dominating support complaints turned totally false.

    I'll take your word for it for now since I haven't tried the second pass. Although I'm still skeptical.

    I only brought up stats because it's hard to believe someone who claims it's so easy while their stats indicate they're better with every other class. I was never bashing your stats. You're clearly a better player than I am.

    I will be playing support a lot more now though. I just unlocked the Perino last night, and I've heard it's a great LMG. Unfortunately it was late so I only got to use it for the remaining time in the match I was in. I am kind of getting tired of the lack of variety in scout rifles. I still don't want the class to be relegated to only long range effectiveness though. I'd even be fine if they got rid of the sweetspot in favor of making the class more objective focused. Sitting on a hill is boring.
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