Let's Stop Freaking Out and Just Think About The TTK Changes For a Second

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LieutenantVixen
201 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
Note: this is NOT about weapon balance. Don't talk about the Hellreigel, RSC, etc, I know those are considered unbalanced. That's not what I'm talking about.

Fundamentally, what does decreasing the time to kill (slightly) mean? How does it affect how a fight plays out?

Well, what it really changes is your margin of error when fired upon. A longer TTK gives you time to seek cover and avoid incoming fire. The longer the TTK, the easier it is to survive enemy fire, and the less effective getting the jump on someone will be since they will have time to run out of your line of fire. Combined with the buff to bipod LMGs, I can only conclude the intention here is to create gameplay where supports lock down fields of fire with LMGs that Assaults can't just bunny hop or twitch shoot their way out of. It also means that if you get ambushed/blindsided by a hidden/flanking opponent, you're probably going to die.

This means two things have to change in the way we play:

1. You must be more careful with how you advance. You must think about where supports can set up, where the fields of fire are, and the routes through the map that minimize exposure to firing lanes. If this isn't possible (it isn't always), then your team needs to be able to counter static enemy defensive positions with their own machinegunners, scouts (particularly effective against bipod users, it must be noted), good grenade/mortar placement, and gas/smoke grenade usage. In other words, an advance requires a bit more finesse than simply running forward and hip-firing anyone you see with the Hellreigel.

2. You need to be aware of where you teammates are and whether a given route through the map is covered; an open movement route is one that can be used to flank, and now that flanking is deadlier, that's something you want to avoid. You need to cover all bases and have control of your frontline, not be rushing around in a mob that can be manuevered around.

I will agree this change wasn't really needed, but nothing that's really changed from this TTK update is terribly taxing or arduous; it's just asking people to be a bit more careful and a bit more observant of the map and where they place themselves and how they move through it. I realize positioning and movement are often not prioritized by many people in FPS in favour of the holy recoil control/aim/twitch reflex trifecta that is considered the hallmark of skill, but I see nothing wrong with making it necessary in a game like this.

Comments

  • TheGM86
    475 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    Sorry but have you checked what year it is currently. Long gone are the times of Thought and Reason. Now is the age for appeals to Emotion to begin!
    latest?cb=20120713032652

  • tostirooster
    197 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    TheGM86 wrote: »
    Sorry but have you checked what year it is currently. Long gone are the times of Thought and Reason. Now is the age for appeals to Emotion to begin!
    latest?cb=20120713032652

    Something about the hammer hitting a nail somewhere...
  • cso7777
    193 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    edited February 12
    I don't understand the whining about TTK2.0. Overall the balance is almost the same.

    There were a lot of weird things before TTK2.0 (some of them):
    • Pistol/revolvers vs. SMG/LMG, handguns were too strong compared to automatic-weapons.
    • SLR spread was weird, you could fire bullets and they flew in "all directions".
    • LMGs was not very good at longer ranges due to number of bullets needed for killing. Also in CQC they were weak compared to SLRs.
    • PTFO Scout, I know some people cry about this, but why should scouts be "comparable" to Assault in CQC? Scouts have sweetspot and one-shot kills with headshots at all distances. Scouts being bad in CQC is not a problem, Assault has the same problem at medium/long distances (Assault is almost useless beyond 20-30 meters).

    I know people complain about CQC, but a lot of the time, engagements are made at longer ranges than CQC, and then the Assault-class is in trouble. Balancing things the way TTK2.0 is, are actually more fair to the all the classes, than the old system.

    And, like others mentioned earlier. Adjust, get better, why not?

    The game should be fun, but improving your skills is not a bad thing. And it's not that hard, just a little effort from the players.
  • MarxistDictator
    4215 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    Yeah if they would have fixed the issues from the start people wouldn't have molded around the broken stupid balance and gotten angry when it was changed. Oh well.
  • MachoFantast1c0
    885 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    ...Combined with the buff to bipod LMGs, I can only conclude the intention here is to create gameplay where supports lock down fields of fire with LMGs that Assaults can't just bunny hop or twitch shoot their way out of.

    This has never been a stated intention or a goal that has been worked towards. It is simply a practical consequence of the adjustments they were ultimately forced to make. Initial changes to LMGs made them far too good at all ranges, and they had to do something to allow assaults at close range, medics at mid range and scouts at all range to compete more effectively. Unfortunately, the only things they could do given the commitment to both considerable max damage and min damage buffs was to rework the bipods and double-nerf ADS mechanics (delay plus max spread punishment for premature fire).
    .
    So no glorious principles at work here, pure coincidence. No need to rewrite history.
    I will agree this change wasn't really needed, but nothing that's really changed from this TTK update is terribly taxing or arduous; it's just asking people to be a bit more careful and a bit more observant of the map and where they place themselves and how they move through it.

    Not only is this not as fun for a lot of people, but as some foresaw, this update has had a lot of negative side-effects: team balance has taken a turn for the worse, shorter TTK exacerbates netcode artifacts and the weapon meta has just been altered instead of reaching the stated goals.
    cso7777 wrote: »
    [*] SLR spread was weird, you could fire bullets and they flew in "all directions".

    So you prefer they lowered the SLR skill gap? Using them used to take skill, along with satisfaction that overcame their limitations. Now you can spam most of them, very little need to concentrate on your fire patterns.
    .
    To you I say: the game should be fun, but improving your skills is not a bad thing. And it's not that hard, just a little effort from the players.
    .
    But I guess it's only fair that the apologists get their own therapy thread. Sorry for intervening, won't happen again.
  • bran1986
    3472 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    ...Combined with the buff to bipod LMGs, I can only conclude the intention here is to create gameplay where supports lock down fields of fire with LMGs that Assaults can't just bunny hop or twitch shoot their way out of.

    This has never been a stated intention or a goal that has been worked towards. It is simply a practical consequence of the adjustments they were ultimately forced to make. Initial changes to LMGs made them far too good at all ranges, and they had to do something to allow assaults at close range, medics at mid range and scouts at all range to compete more effectively. Unfortunately, the only things they could do given the commitment to both considerable max damage and min damage buffs was to rework the bipods and double-nerf ADS mechanics (delay plus max spread punishment for premature fire).
    .
    So no glorious principles at work here, pure coincidence. No need to rewrite history.
    I will agree this change wasn't really needed, but nothing that's really changed from this TTK update is terribly taxing or arduous; it's just asking people to be a bit more careful and a bit more observant of the map and where they place themselves and how they move through it.

    Not only is this not as fun for a lot of people, but as some foresaw, this update has had a lot of negative side-effects: team balance has taken a turn for the worse, shorter TTK exacerbates netcode artifacts and the weapon meta has just been altered instead of reaching the stated goals.
    cso7777 wrote: »
    [*] SLR spread was weird, you could fire bullets and they flew in "all directions".

    So you prefer they lowered the SLR skill gap? Using them used to take skill, along with satisfaction that overcame their limitations. Now you can spam most of them, very little need to concentrate on your fire patterns.
    .

    To you I say: the game should be fun, but improving your skills is not a bad thing. And it's not that hard, just a little effort from the players.
    .
    But I guess it's only fair that the apologists get their own therapy thread. Sorry for intervening, won't happen again.

    As a medic main, the ttk 2.0 definitely has me conflicted. I do like how medic rifles feel at mid range now, but at the same time it feels much easier and not as rewarding as it used to be to kill people with SLRs. People always scream about skill gaps and how "casual" BF1 is, but then applaud a move that basically takes most of the skill out of the SLRs all together. It used to take time and effort to get used to the spread patterns of the SLRs, you really had to get a good rhythm going with them to do well since all of them were different, now anyone can pick up a SLR and go hillhump and get easy kills.
  • Halcyon_Creed_N7
    677 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Lower TTK means more emphasis on twitch gameplay. It's the difference between COD and Halo, both FPS, but both play very differently. Low TTK games lend themselves to fast paced games or very slow paced tactical shooters. Battlefield is neither of those.
  • GRIZZ11283
    4450 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    The simple fact of the matter is, the changes were never needed, so why change something that never needed it, but ignore something that does need changing (pre-round balance anyone).
    Granted there was a few guns that needed sorting, but not all.
    I've spent a few hours in 3 weeks on the game and that's not even close to how much I used to play it, the game just doesn't feel like the game I enjoyed anymore. And when I do play, I just lose interest very quick now.
  • xBCxSEALxTEAMx6
    367 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    I spent a year getting proficient, and i'm not going thru that all over again b/c they wanted to appease a part of the community that never existed. That's over. This just made absolutely zero sense, and now i can''t even play my game. I just want to know how e can get DICEs ear to revert this, or at least a statement given the backlash.
  • Sed1Tion
    329 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    TTK 2.0 just doesnt sit well with the netcode latency.

    You fire first, you die first. Not good.

    You fire first, get hitmarkers but die instantly and do no damage. Not good.

    You fire first, your weapon has a faster ttk than your enemies, your not missing but you still die doing hardly any damage. Not good.

    Hitreg and latency issues are amplified by TTK 2.0

    Its not so much an issue when you get a good server but these are few and far between.
  • Removed11322
    727 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Ttk changes have made th game better. Most guns apart from about 5 were useless obsolete wastes of time.
    Stop moaning and get on with it.
  • HuwJarz
    3232 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    Ttk changes have made th game better. Most guns apart from about 5 were useless obsolete wastes of time.
    Stop moaning and get on with it.

    Erm - Most people disagree with your statement. The majority here think the game is far worse, not just for gameplay, but there are now more base rapes etc. I am not exactly seeing greater diversification of weapons either. In fact, the Hellriegal is used even more. So basically everything you just said is either not a popular view or actually plain wrong.
  • Removed11322
    727 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    It's my opinion. Enjoyed it before, doing better with other weapons now.
    Base rapes are down to simple, stupid behaviour by either selfish or incompetent players (STILL choosing Scout class when there's already 10+ on the team, STILL camping with tanks, STILL travelling in herds, STILL ignoring enemies hiding on flags, STILL not even attempting to fire at planes etc, etc,etc add infinitum).
    Ttk just compounds the problem by a tiny, tiny percent.
    Doubt it's gonna change back so it's not worth whining about.
  • boutneus
    2152 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    It promotes camping for all classes except assault (op class more op) due to I see you first you die first. You’re less likely to get revived/find ammo because your team is hanging back waiting for the assaults to move up. It boxes classes into certain play styles (Agro scout RIP, run &gun support rare,tons of rifle nade meds) which is bad.
    And it sucks the fun out of the game because everything is slowed down (players way more cautious now)
  • HuwJarz
    3232 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    It's my opinion. Enjoyed it before, doing better with other weapons now.
    Base rapes are down to simple, stupid behaviour by either selfish or incompetent players (STILL choosing Scout class when there's already 10+ on the team, STILL camping with tanks, STILL travelling in herds, STILL ignoring enemies hiding on flags, STILL not even attempting to fire at planes etc, etc,etc add infinitum).
    Ttk just compounds the problem by a tiny, tiny percent.
    Doubt it's gonna change back so it's not worth whining about.

    Sure - and we are all entitled to our opinion. Here is the thing though.....this change has been very unpopular overall. And the disdain for it seems to be being brushed under the carpet. One thing I am surprised about, is that one of the major YouTube guys has not broken ranks and called it out for what it is - an unpopular change.

    I know they are probably scared to bite the hand that feeds them, but the reality is that they would get more respect from the community for actually making content that reflected the views of the community.

    You say it's not going to change? That should not stop the rest of us expressing our opinions in the hope that it does get changed. I repeat your views, but think you are wrong. No point in you telling the rest of us to stop whining. We have the same right to express our opinions as you. ;-)

  • spartanx169x
    180 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Your words - "A longer TTK gives you time to seek cover and avoid incoming fire. The longer the TTK, the easier it is to survive enemy fire, and the less effective getting the jump on someone will be since they will have time to run out of your line of fire."

    It has been my experience in not only BF1 , but literally playing every major shooter and some generic shooters that a longer TTK allowed a single player a better opportunity against 2 or more enemies. This is why I take issue with this current update. I have played multiple COD titles, Multiple Halo titles, multiple gears of War titles, at least one Killzone, Both Plants vs Zombies titles, and other I won't bother listing. It has been my experience that consistently when the TTK is really fast, it greatly reduces your chances to turn the tables in a outnumbered situation or when a single enemy gets the drop on you. I have lost count of the times players got the drop on me and I could turn the tables in for example Halo which has had one of the longer TTKs in the genre vs I can count on one hand how many times that has happened in COD which has one of the fastest if not the fastest TTKs across all their titles. So based on my experience, DICE's claim it will help outnumbered situations, is to be blunt, is flat wrong,

    Additionally, most of the weapons in BF1 are really slow to go to ADS which until now not much of an issue because of the longer TTK. But since the patch, it has been my experience I’m having to go to ADS a lot more often if I even get the slightest hint an enemy is near me. This is incredibly irritating.

    the game has been one way since the beta so over 18 months, then out of nowhere they decide to up and change it on a whim no warning, no discussion, no feedback. Nobody asking for this change. If the game had launched like this, it would not have been much of an issue, because I would have at least been aware of it in the beta and could have decided to buy the game or not buy the game. I would also argue that if it had been like this in the beta, they would not have had as many sales as they did, this game brought in a lot of casual players that had never gotten a BF game. Having a faster TTK spits in the face of casual players that are still playing and I’m sure this will impact the current population.

    Lastly, most people posting have posted on this for it or against it for how it impacts them. Little to nobody other than me has even considered how it will impact the population as a whole. For those that are for this change, is it worth the cost of losing as much as half the population over the next couple of months? I don’t know what the impact will be, but it’s naïve to think it won’t have any impact. If you think it will increase the population you will be in for a rude awakening.
  • LieutenantVixen
    201 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    boutneus wrote: »
    It promotes camping for all classes except assault (op class more op) due to I see you first you die first. You’re less likely to get revived/find ammo because your team is hanging back waiting for the assaults to move up. It boxes classes into certain play styles (Agro scout RIP, run &gun support rare,tons of rifle nade meds) which is bad.
    And it sucks the fun out of the game because everything is slowed down (players way more cautious now)

    Actually I must admit to liking the slower pace. It complements my **** reflexes.
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