Operations is now just a massive waste of time

2

Comments

  • von_Campenstein
    5604 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    KriZ_Rul3Z wrote: »
    I have no clue why dice made the operations so unbalanced. Surely they must have stats showing the defenders win 90% of the time?

    Operations is a new game mode for Dice and I think their main intent with it was to gauge how the community would react to it. I don't think they planned to invest a lot of time/money into it's development, due to not knowing if it would be a success or not. Now that the community has responded very favorably to it, I imagine that the next game will have a far more refined Operations mode.

    The overwhelming feedback I've seen is that people who played Operations liked the smaller mode better and it got canned, that gauge..
  • ninjapenquinuk
    853 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    I'm not one for class limits, so maybe they could tweak the scoring system so you get a lot more points for squad actions or have a zone around flags where points are increased for everything. So resupplies/heals/kills etc gain you more points if the player (you) are within x metres of a flag.
  • von_Campenstein
    5604 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    I'm not one for class limits, so maybe they could tweak the scoring system so you get a lot more points for squad actions or have a zone around flags where points are increased for everything. So resupplies/heals/kills etc gain you more points if the player (you) are within x metres of a flag.

    That would be massively biased against Scouts who are at a disadvantage sitting on a flag most times, now if they got points for kills within x meters of the flag instead.
  • RobDMaggot
    45 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    I LOVE Operations! It's the only game mode I don't have to worry about spawns rewarding flanks.
    Naturally, it is much harder to defend than attack an objective. When defending, you're waiting to react to your enemy, thus giving them the initiative. But if you strip from them the speed and momentum required to overwhelm your position, they're forced to fight behind trees and hills against a fortified fortress.
    So yeah, an attacking team that doesn't PTFO is already dead in the water. That's why Suppression, heavy tanks, and artillery should be an attacker's best defense!
  • ninjapenquinuk
    853 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    I'm not one for class limits, so maybe they could tweak the scoring system so you get a lot more points for squad actions or have a zone around flags where points are increased for everything. So resupplies/heals/kills etc gain you more points if the player (you) are within x metres of a flag.

    That would be massively biased against Scouts who are at a disadvantage sitting on a flag most times, now if they got points for kills within x meters of the flag instead.

    That's kind of the point. Having too many players sitting back (not exclusively a scout problem, but they are the main culprits) is what seriously hampers an attacking team in Ops. Nothing stopping a player using an infantry or carbine variant and getting mixed in with the dirty work of taking sectors. If a player still wants to then that's up to them but they will just take a serious hit on the points front. I'd only advocate this for Operations and possibly Frontlines, not Conquest, where kills can be just as valuable as flag caps.
  • Elite_Guard_Yuto
    35 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    40 players Ops worked better. There was more room for movement without getting exploded by myriad of explosives thrown/launched in chokepoints or sniper/LMG shooted across the map from multiple positions. What you can expect when 32 vs. 32 is pitted against each other in a fraction of regular conquest map?
  • crswipe
    559 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    I'm not one for class limits, so maybe they could tweak the scoring system so you get a lot more points for squad actions or have a zone around flags where points are increased for everything. So resupplies/heals/kills etc gain you more points if the player (you) are within x metres of a flag.

    That would be massively biased against Scouts who are at a disadvantage sitting on a flag most times, now if they got points for kills within x meters of the flag instead.

    If your squad leader has selected a flag, then all squad kills at said flag give 20 points per kill to squad players every time you switch flags or finish an order on the flag. If all squad members are following those orders and getting kills, you all get lots of points.
  • dirkadirka409
    17 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    jasoncaric wrote: »
    Operations is no fun on either side if there are no sectors being taken. I can usually tell how a fresh game is going to go within the first 10 minutes or so. I just quit out if there is nothing being gained or at the very least being contested.

    This is part of the problem. Not just for operations, but every mode. Don't quit out, try harder.
  • azelenkin0306
    371 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    Not, it’s not a waste of time. IMHO, CQ is a waste of time, running simulator. Operations has become a perfect mode for stat jerkers due to huge amount of players on a very limited area.

    Simple fixes that would make OPs great again include removing KDR stats for Attackers and removing “cheap kills” tools like Mortar AA trucks and bombers.
  • jasoncaric
    184 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    jasoncaric wrote: »
    Operations is no fun on either side if there are no sectors being taken. I can usually tell how a fresh game is going to go within the first 10 minutes or so. I just quit out if there is nothing being gained or at the very least being contested.

    This is part of the problem. Not just for operations, but every mode. Don't quit out, try harder.

    That’s just it though. If the attacking team fails to take the first sector or even a flag without almost losing a battalion and nobody is even going for a flag it’s pointless. I quit no matter what side I’m on just because it’s so boring.
  • ninjapenquinuk
    853 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    jasoncaric wrote: »
    Operations is no fun on either side if there are no sectors being taken. I can usually tell how a fresh game is going to go within the first 10 minutes or so. I just quit out if there is nothing being gained or at the very least being contested.

    This is part of the problem. Not just for operations, but every mode. Don't quit out, try harder.

    To be fair, operations is a game mode where you can win after a poor start. Many a round has been the attacking team steamroll the first few sectors, only to still lose, or even lose all 3 battalion on the last sector. It's about momentum. Once attackers have it, they are hard to stop, but once stopped, defenders can regain the advantage. That could also be down to people quitting the 'losing' and being replaced by more effective players.
  • cso7777
    381 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    I think the vehicle balance of this game is a big problem. Don't know what the solution is, but it's fundamentally flawed. This goes for Conquest as well as operations.

    When a team is trying to cap a flag, it's too easy for the other team, to use "vehicles" to stop the capping of the flag.

    I know team-work is needed for taking down vehicles, but that is a fail in my opinion. It too often doesn't happen and we (the players) haven't learned it after 1½ years of playing...

    Generally it is pretty hard for infantry to fight other infantry and also having to deal with vehicles at the same time.

    Not giving infantry weapons to take down vehicles without teamwork, does not work, it has been proven with BF1. We really need an engineer class like in ealier games.

    The sound not working for vehicles, just makes the problem even bigger, being insta-killed by a bomber or tank that is silent is pretty frustrating and it happens a lot. This also makes players play more defensively.

    I think there are to many "vehicles" (tanks, planes, horses, special classes, behemoths) in the game, this makes the game hard for Dice to balance. Either the "vehicle" are useless or they get overpowered for the infantry-players (which is the largest number of players).

    BF1 is a very good game, but it still has some serious balancing issues, that hopefully will be fixed in BF2018. I don't think it's possible for Dice to fix the problems now, because it's fundamental problems, it's not something that can be easily tweaked and fixed (but please Dice tweak anyway).
  • beetroot888
    748 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Tried the campaign ops last night on cappe helles. What a joke. A good pilot 134-4 and guy in the destroyer ruined the game for me. All they did was bombared the obj with arty from destroyer then plane would come through and mop up whoever was left on obj. I couldnd do a thing as 3/4 Of the team were camping yellow bellies the others just plain sucked. I used to like ops and conquest but just don't play anymore due to vehiclrs and how good guys have gotten with them. Couple that with your not using, peabrained casuals and your in for a crappy time.
  • V2Face
    2534 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    edited April 17
    For someone who has 10 million plus points in the game mode, the game has its moments and it is balanced for the most part. I win as defenders and attackers more often times then not. Attackers only need 4-5 bodies on point because most players won’t defend it and kind of play off point. 64 player Operations is what ruined Operations because the sectors and points are not designed properly for the player size. Increase the cap zones and increase the cap points per sector and the mode will be more balanced and less likely to encourage kill farming and stat padding. Or you know bring back 40 man Operations...
  • bapman63
    930 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    So we are mostly in agreement. We play to win and that means objectives! Balance has to be right and while all classes are useful in own right and players using them as a whole I am fed up being in poor team with far too many sitting back trying not to die and not helping team. Worst cases are snipers and even more frustrating tanks sitting back hiding and not budging while they can transport players to area quickly. I also play to win and get really annoyed with game when in poor team. Saying that why is it you always start game in a poor team?

    I think your on track, k/d is killing the objective based games. I would like to see dice remove k/d tracking from games like cq and ops all together, if your k/d rate is a big thing play tdm instead.
  • Sixclicks
    3891 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited April 17
    bapman63 wrote: »
    So we are mostly in agreement. We play to win and that means objectives! Balance has to be right and while all classes are useful in own right and players using them as a whole I am fed up being in poor team with far too many sitting back trying not to die and not helping team. Worst cases are snipers and even more frustrating tanks sitting back hiding and not budging while they can transport players to area quickly. I also play to win and get really annoyed with game when in poor team. Saying that why is it you always start game in a poor team?

    I think your on track, k/d is killing the objective based games. I would like to see dice remove k/d tracking from games like cq and ops all together, if your k/d rate is a big thing play tdm instead.

    Considering half of the objective of objective based games is kills, how about no? Look at the end of any Conquest game. They tell you the points from flags and the points from kills. For Operations, as defenders, kills are also important as they reduce the enemy's tickets. In any objective game mode, you can't capture the objective, plant the bomb, etc. without first killing the enemies defending it. The less you die while doing so, the better your chances are of taking that objective.

    KDR is a relevant stat in every game mode. That doesn't mean you should covet it to the detriment of your performance in other areas, but it is an important stat. The more you die, the less time you have to fight for the objectives. The more you kill, the easier it is to capture/defend the objective.

    Of course a good player will have a good KDR in addition to a good SPM and good KPM.
    Post edited by Sixclicks on
  • trip1ex
    3503 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    edited April 18
    Fix Ops by getting rid of it. Pointless to have it. IT's just a worse (version) of Conquest. And why bother playing other objective modes in this game only to still find no one playing objectives?

    Just make 1 mode. Conquest. IF DICE would have focused on Conquest only we'd have a better more polished mode with even more all around appeal.


    Other than that, get rid of k/d and have a more structured army where you can't have 16 snipers on a team. Make it a team based game and not a squad based game. Don't allow team switching. Quitters can't play until the next day. 1 mulligan a month. And put in some real balance at the beginning of a round as if any of that needs to be said. And quit with the dumb "Missions" that treat a multiplayer team based game like World of Battlecraft. And yes I'd aim for 50 players on a server instead of 64.



    Post edited by trip1ex on
  • wiazabi
    312 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    Operations is fun but can go bad so quickly now due to Mortar truck / Heavy bomber.

    Oil of empire -> take 2 first maps with all 3 battalions left -> destroy train -> for whatever reason people take mortar trucks and it is instantly lost round.
  • bapman63
    930 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    Sixclicks wrote: »
    bapman63 wrote: »
    So we are mostly in agreement. We play to win and that means objectives! Balance has to be right and while all classes are useful in own right and players using them as a whole I am fed up being in poor team with far too many sitting back trying not to die and not helping team. Worst cases are snipers and even more frustrating tanks sitting back hiding and not budging while they can transport players to area quickly. I also play to win and get really annoyed with game when in poor team. Saying that why is it you always start game in a poor team?

    I think your on track, k/d is killing the objective based games. I would like to see dice remove k/d tracking from games like cq and ops all together, if your k/d rate is a big thing play tdm instead.

    Considering half of the objective of objective based games is kills, how about no? Look at the end of any Conquest game. They tell you the points from flags and the points from kills. For Operations, as defenders, kills are also important as they reduce the enemy's tickets. In any objective game mode, you can't capture the objective, plant the bomb, etc. without first killing the enemies defending it. The less you die while doing so, the better your chances are of taking that objective.

    KDR is a relevant stat in every game mode. That doesn't mean you should covet it to the detriment of your performance in other areas, but it is an important stat. The more you die, the less time you have to fight for the objectives. The more you kill, the easier it is to capture/defend the objective.

    Of course a good player will have a good KDR in addition to a good SPM and good KPM.

    I see what your saying but, no. The objective of games like cq and ops is capturing and holding objectives. The way it's done is by taking out the enemy but the main thing is to capture and hold.
    The kills you see at the end of the round is the collective total of all players on the team not a k/d rate and most of the time the point total for capturing objectives is higher than the point total for kills.
    These totals can still be displayed as a total for the team but doesn't need to be captured for the individual, the games will still be a success.
  • DonSharkito
    770 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    edited April 18
    bapman63 wrote: »
    Sixclicks wrote: »
    bapman63 wrote: »
    So we are mostly in agreement. We play to win and that means objectives! Balance has to be right and while all classes are useful in own right and players using them as a whole I am fed up being in poor team with far too many sitting back trying not to die and not helping team. Worst cases are snipers and even more frustrating tanks sitting back hiding and not budging while they can transport players to area quickly. I also play to win and get really annoyed with game when in poor team. Saying that why is it you always start game in a poor team?

    I think your on track, k/d is killing the objective based games. I would like to see dice remove k/d tracking from games like cq and ops all together, if your k/d rate is a big thing play tdm instead.

    Considering half of the objective of objective based games is kills, how about no? Look at the end of any Conquest game. They tell you the points from flags and the points from kills. For Operations, as defenders, kills are also important as they reduce the enemy's tickets. In any objective game mode, you can't capture the objective, plant the bomb, etc. without first killing the enemies defending it. The less you die while doing so, the better your chances are of taking that objective.

    KDR is a relevant stat in every game mode. That doesn't mean you should covet it to the detriment of your performance in other areas, but it is an important stat. The more you die, the less time you have to fight for the objectives. The more you kill, the easier it is to capture/defend the objective.

    Of course a good player will have a good KDR in addition to a good SPM and good KPM.

    I see what your saying but, no. The objective of games like cq and ops is capturing and holding objectives. The way it's done is by taking out the enemy but the main thing is to capture and hold.
    The kills you see at the end of the round is the collective total of all players on the team not a k/d rate and most of the time the point total for capturing objectives is higher than the point total for kills.
    These totals can still be displayed as a total for the team but doesn't need to be captured for the individual, the games will still be a success.

    There is no reason to hide kills and deaths in a FPS. Even less in BF, where in the major modes (CQ or OPs) kills matter a lot. You need to kill to capture and hold objectives and bleed tickets from the enemy (unless you are capping empty objectives which anyone can do). I don't see why hiding them is even being discussed when they contribute in CQ only usually for 30-50% (or even more) of the total score. I don't see what is the point of hiding them in OPS if the defenders main goal is to kill X amount of enemies to win (and not cap objectives). Showing kills on the scoreboard adds a way to see who is efficient from this perspective.

    Hiding kills and showing only score will just exacerbate the zerging behaviour (which is already a problem in this game) and players will have even more incentive than now to run and cap empty flags to get free and juicy points. Why? Because total score will be the only comparison point available on the scoreboard.

    For example in CQ I usually defend more than I cap (which involves killing a lot and allows my team to hold the objectives). But on average this will net me less points than if I was just running along the team and capping empty flags. Why should I continue to do that in the scenario if score only is displayed?
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