I’m glad sweet spot is going but I’m worried about scout effectiveness

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Comments

  • theONEFORCE
    2644 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    Loqtrall wrote: »
    Lykosia wrote: »
    Loqtrall wrote: »

    It's even more mind-numbing when you consider the fact people complain about snipers that OHK in close range, but don't say a WORD about Slug shotguns that do the exact same thing, fire faster, and have larger mags. Or don't say a WORD about shotguns which do the same thing while firing faster, having larger ammo counts, and requiring SUBSTANTIALLY less accuracy to be effective.

    I don't think you can compare shotguns to snipers. Shotguns still aren't effective on long range. If a shotgun guy and a sniper guy meet on a battlefield, if it's long range, shotgun guy has to close the distance before he has any chance to defeat the sniper, but if it's CQB a sniper can still win if he shoots first and hits. In CQB a sniper still has a decent chance to win when a shotgun guy has no chance to win in long range encounter.

    Slugs give a little bit more range to shotguns, but still snipers are much better at range.

    Yes, they can be directly compared, because we're speaking about two weapon types capable of OHK in EXTREME close range, and rifles being the more difficult to use out of them both despite still retaining the ability to OHK.

    The reasoning behind this is slug shotguns not only OHK in cqb, but they shoot a single projectile just like rifles, but do so at a noticeably faster rate of fire and whole maintaining more ammo per mag than said rifle.

    Slug shotguns DO NOT need to get close to snipers further than their OHK range. Slug shotguns 2hk JUST like rifles up to 55m, that's a nice span of distance. It's a 3hk at ANY distance after that, there's no more damage drop off. That's not to mention it's capability of OHKing with a headshot up to 50m, which no other weapon aside from rifles is capable of - sounds pretty comparable.

    Of course rifles are easier to use at those ranges, but not equally as easily as slugs are to able to be used in CQB in comparison to a rifle. You can still 2hk someone 55m away with slugs, but you can't OHK someone 12m away with a rifle.

    It's completely contradictory to complain about one and not the other.

    Slugs are essentially a semi-auto aggro sniper rifle that nobody says anything about - but if you give the same attributes to a rifle that fires slower and has less rounds, for whatever reason people freak out and call it OP as people with slugs do the exact same thing.

    Otherwise you are just combining the best of both worlds and offering it to the scout class, which is not a good way to balance things imo.

    That is exactly what they want and they don't understand why everyone sees a huge problem with it. They want a scout class that is more than competitive at every range.
  • MachoFantast1c0
    1088 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    Lykosia wrote: »

    Conversely, a slug shotgun is far better than a sniper at close range, while being superior in mid-range combat.

    Depends on a game, in BF1 most snipers excel at mid-range: Ross, SMLE, Arisaka, Russian Trench, MH, VV, Carcano, G95. I would take Russian Trench over any slug shotgun in BF1 for that role. Slugs have spread even when standing still and I none of the shotguns have good sights for accurate shooting.

    The spread thing is aggravating. Aim for that perfect headshot, only to see your bullet deviate.
  • b2tchwood
    1033 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    I don’t want a scout class that is competitive at every range but I don’t want players that use sniper rifles to be deterred from PTFO’ing. As the title says I’m glad the sweet spot is gone, it’s OP and makes the scout class far too accessible but at the same time taking away makes the scout class underpowered IMO. Balance is out to me and something needs to be given to the scout class to ensure it’s viability.
  • theONEFORCE
    2644 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    b2tchwood wrote: »
    I don’t want a scout class that is competitive at every range but I don’t want players that use sniper rifles to be deterred from PTFO’ing. As the title says I’m glad the sweet spot is gone, it’s OP and makes the scout class far too accessible but at the same time taking away makes the scout class underpowered IMO. Balance is out to me and something needs to be given to the scout class to ensure it’s viability.

    You cannot make CQC scout accessible to the average player without opening it up to abuse from the above average player. That is the lesson we learned in BF1.


  • b2tchwood
    1033 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    b2tchwood wrote: »
    I don’t want a scout class that is competitive at every range but I don’t want players that use sniper rifles to be deterred from PTFO’ing. As the title says I’m glad the sweet spot is gone, it’s OP and makes the scout class far too accessible but at the same time taking away makes the scout class underpowered IMO. Balance is out to me and something needs to be given to the scout class to ensure it’s viability.

    You cannot make CQC scout accessible to the average player without opening it up to abuse from the above average player. That is the lesson we learned in BF1.


    BF1 was not CQC. 1.5 multiplier is 12.5m which is pretty balanced IMO. Past that you start to get into the average engagement distance.

    What we learned from BF1 is making the scout class accessible to people at range is a problem. Recons were never that OP in BF4 or BF3 as annoying the OHK multiplier was. It was however OP in BFBC2 and Hardline where the multiplier was extended to 30m.

    The 12.5 m multiplier is not a bad thing. It by no means makes the class a CQC masterclass as a slug shotgun a distance weapon.

    Again though the one thing I definitely want implemented is a headshot no revive for sniper rifles only. This is where players should be aiming- not upper torso like BF1. And it allows an element of fear from players of scouts again without making them OP.

    Balance is required and balance is not what we have in BFV from what I’ve seen
  • Sixclicks
    3696 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited July 12
    Scout rifles in BFV don't one hit kill to the body at any range now. They also only do just over 50 damage past medium range. There's no reason they shouldn't be able to OHK at very close ranges similar to slug shotguns. It wasn't a problem in BF4. I don't see why it would be a problem in BFV. As Loqtrall has attempted to point out too many times now, they still have a significantly slower fire rate than slug shotguns which means they're still significantly less forgiving at close range even with a OHK. And just like slugs, they too were always affected by arm hitboxes getting in the way - making it even more unforgiving for bolt actions that can't rapidly fire follow-up shots.

    There's no random deviation in BFV. So if slug shotguns make a return, they'll still be way stronger than a bolt action that can OHK to the chest <15 meters while likely also benefiting from the higher headshot multiplier that all weapons now have which will help slugs with ranged OHKs to the head.
  • DonSharkito
    762 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    Sixclicks wrote: »
    Scout rifles in BFV don't one hit kill to the body at any range now. They also only do just over 50 damage past medium range. There's no reason they shouldn't be able to OHK at very close ranges similar to slug shotguns. It wasn't a problem in BF4. I don't see why it would be a problem in BFV. As Loqtrall has attempted to point out too many times now, they still have a significantly slower fire rate than slug shotguns which means they're still significantly less forgiving at close range even with a OHK. And just like slugs, they too were always affected by arm hitboxes getting in the way - making it even more unforgiving for bolt actions that can't rapidly fire follow-up shots.

    There's no random deviation in BFV. So if slug shotguns make a return, they'll still be way stronger than a bolt action that can OHK to the chest <15 meters while likely also benefiting from the higher headshot multiplier that all weapons now have which will help slugs with ranged OHKs to the head.

    I still think comparing them to slugs and trying to "combine" both of them is not necessarily the right way to look at this.

    I believe it is a bit premature to try to push for something at an alpha stage of a game when we don't have yet all the different data from the upcoming game (on weapons, full gunplay mechanics, archetypes and final health regeneration and attrition systems).

    The scout rifle damage model in BFV looks "weaker" than in BF1, but don't forget that you will have larger HS hitboxes and also that you will have the opportunity to kill more wounded enemies (no full HP regeneration; the HP regeneration in the alpha was considered too high and will be probably lowered for the beta). On top of that the assist count as kill was lowered to 60 dmg, allowing you to probably collect many kill assists (with the appropriate rifle), like the assist count as kill machine aka the G95 in BF1.

    At the end of the day don't forget that it was only an alpha and we have barely seen one map and one/two weapons per class. Indeed, the alpha has showed only one scout rifle, so who knows, maybe there is another rifle which has a CQC OHK potential, even though I would be surprised to see one for the reason mentioned further below. Maybe a rifle will be similar to the BF1's medic RSC in terms of rof and damage model, allowing scouts to be more aggressive and mid-range oriented? Who knows?

    Nonetheless, imo Dice have decided that in BFV scout rifles are designed for mid-long range engagements and efficiency (depending on the rifle), while trading off completely their CQC efficiency. And hence have created scout/recon archetypes that will allow you to be efficient in CQC with more suited weapons while keeping some of their class gadgets. This is the way I think it is going to be, with defined roles and engagement distances by archetypes. So it will be up to the player to decide and accept that if he choses a rifle he might be inefficient in some engagement distances.

    Last but not least, I see a lot of talks about laser accurate weapons and so on, but from what I've read from a Dice dev, the alpha didn't include many of the developed new gunplay mechanics. For example alpha weapons didn't really have any recoil patterns, as the recoil was mostly vertical and reasonably easy to manage for a player familiar with FPS games. One should expect that recoil values will change a lot between alpha and beta and the potential introduction of proper and severe recoil patterns on all of the weapons will mitigate some of their laser accuracy. Also meaning potentially that weapons like the assault's STG 44 might be a lot harder to use past a certain range for the average user and limiting its capacity at mid-long range, thus less encroaching on SLR and scout rifles territories.
  • DingoKillr
    2720 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    I still think comparing them to slugs and trying to "combine" both of them is not necessarily the right way to look at this.

    I believe it is a bit premature to try to push for something at an alpha stage of a game when we don't have yet all the different data from the upcoming game (on weapons, full gunplay mechanics, archetypes and final health regeneration and attrition systems).
    Correct we should not combine the 2.

    However if you don't put forward idea now, you will be unlikely to see a major adjustment beyond changing the positions of bells and whistles.


  • trip1ex
    3427 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    edited July 13
    Since when are Slugs such awesome all around weapons that everyone in BF1 uses them? I can't recall the last time I was killed with one.

    Nevermind it is silly to compare a known BFV Alpha weapon to a weapon in another BF game that is designed differently. You're mixing worlds together that shouldn't be mixed.

  • DingoKillr
    2720 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    The scout rifle damage model in BFV looks "weaker" than in BF1, but don't forget that you will have larger HS hitboxes and also that you will have the opportunity to kill more wounded enemies (no full HP regeneration; the HP regeneration in the alpha was considered too high and will be probably lowered for the beta). On top of that the assist count as kill was lowered to 60 dmg, allowing you to probably collect many kill assists (with the appropriate rifle), like the assist count as kill machine aka the G95 in BF1.

    At the end of the day don't forget that it was only an alpha and we have barely seen one map and one/two weapons per class. Indeed, the alpha has showed only one scout rifle, so who knows, maybe there is another rifle which has a CQC OHK potential, even though I would be surprised to see one for the reason mentioned further below. Maybe a rifle will be similar to the BF1's medic RSC in terms of rof and damage model, allowing scouts to be more aggressive and mid-range oriented? Who knows?

    Nonetheless, imo Dice have decided that in BFV scout rifles are designed for mid-long range engagements and efficiency (depending on the rifle), while trading off completely their CQC efficiency. And hence have created scout/recon archetypes that will allow you to be efficient in CQC with more suited weapons while keeping some of their class gadgets. This is the way I think it is going to be, with defined roles and engagement distances by archetypes. So it will be up to the player to decide and accept that if he choses a rifle he might be inefficient in some engagement distances.

    Last but not least, I see a lot of talks about laser accurate weapons and so on, but from what I've read from a Dice dev, the alpha didn't include many of the developed new gunplay mechanics. For example alpha weapons didn't really have any recoil patterns, as the recoil was mostly vertical and reasonably easy to manage for a player familiar with FPS games. One should expect that recoil values will change a lot between alpha and beta and the potential introduction of proper and severe recoil patterns on all of the weapons will mitigate some of their laser accuracy. Also meaning potentially that weapons like the assault's STG 44 might be a lot harder to use past a certain range for the average user and limiting its capacity at mid-long range, thus less encroaching on SLR and scout rifles territories.
    I split for a reason.
    Headshot hit zones apply to all weapons it will make all weapons more powerful not just rifles.
    60 counts as kill is meaningless as that would only apply if you got first body shot, if that is the majority of kills, assignments are going to be harder to complete and you will gain points at a much slower rate.

    I don't believe DICE will give a accurate high ROF scoped weapon to us in BF5 as issue of weapons can 1 shot at CQB for 1 kill then the next kill at long range. However based on how important other roles have become in BF5, Scout is servely lacking here is why unless everyone has the chance to get something like Paratrooper archetype hardly anyone will have a CQB weapon, while having aggressive play gadgets.

    If we are going to have rifles that have less range(higher bullet drop), glint, slower pistol draw, longer ADS time and 2 shot with low ROF. That sounds more like a sniper config than a mid range scout.

    That is the issue if rifles are sniper base and the gadgets are not, yet that is what the majority of players may only have access to. That makes Scout the less want to play class in BF5

    Arguing for or against 12.5m 1HK rifle or comparing ghetto shotgun v shotgun is meaningless you need to be talking of the Recon/Scout roles.
    Having low ROF, 12.5m with slow ADS time and poor hip fire rifle against a shotgun will see a shotgun win every time. BF3 and 4 had similar ADS for rifle and shotgun made rifles a better choice, which was corrected in BF1. If no sweetspot in BF5 means to me no 1HK even to 12.5m for any body shot for every weapon.

    BF5 Scout role appears to me to be Anti-Infantry and Information providing a mid range support however unless the rifle is adjust to be more acceptable to the majority of players, you will see no squad information and squads made up of long range dual medics, tanks being taken out quicker by dual Assault squads or solo snipers dropping the becon near there favorite spot and using the monocular to see targets.

    People need to think what type of player they want as the fourth person in the squad, someone that can help their squad, at best a burden or create a imbalnce that forces DICE to rectify.

    So having higher ROF, quicker ADS time or even better hip fire are things that can improve the average players usefulness at short to mid range if so many are against BF1 type sweet spots.
  • Hawxxeye
    1612 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha Member
    edited July 13
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    So having higher ROF, quicker ADS time or even better hip fire are things that can improve the average players usefulness at short to mid range if so many are against BF1 type sweet spots.
    Good suggestion if, if people hate ultra close range ohk chest so much why not give bolt action faster ADS so one can have a slightly larger window to aim at someone's head before the other side showers you with lead bullets.

    Post edited by Hawxxeye on
  • sammcool1953
    20 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    the sweet spot feature is awesome. every rifle is different so you actualy have a varitey to choose from because if you want that one hit one kill it all depends on the rifle/ size of map and your play style. obviously haters are gunna hate because they clearly hate getting killed like this. it seems if they remove this, the scout class is going to be the same as all the other battlefields...boring. all rifles with the same damage, no challenge. this feature requires more strategy and skill
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