The Puzzling Lack of Mortars at Launch

Comments

  • DingoKillr
    3421 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited September 2018
    rainkloud wrote: »
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    You don't see the problem with this? It would be either OP for clans or useless on public servers the same occurred in BF3/4. By the way the Assist lock-on launcher could still be used solo.

    You don't need to be in a clan to use teamwork. There's lots of times when i've been able to coordinate with strangers. Sometimes directly and sometimes indirectly. And even in the absence of any coordination there's going to be flares dropped on the battlefield rather frequently and depending on the map and mode there are hot spots that get targeted frequently. Once you identify those patterns you can position yourself such that you can take advantage of those spotting flares and send rounds down range.

    Am I contending that this wouldn't be especially beneficial to coordinated squads making good use of communication? Certainly not, but this goes for a great number of aspects in the game. Squads and teams that have solid communication and coordination with one another are going to excel. No surprises there.

    People don't want mortar spam so a new implementation needs to be thought out or we're going to see mortars either eliminated altogether or limited to representation via call in strike. I don't look as these restrictions so much as a concession or compromise but rather as a balanced but still effective integration into the game's ecosystem.

    However, I do recognize the need to keep mortars both relevant to the battlefield and also competitive with other slots for support and towards that end I believe the mortar should also have 3 smoke rounds that can be fired anywhere without the need for flaring. This should increase their usefulness even in the absence of actionable targets.




    How do you coordinate with a Scout? VOIP. Not going to happen. A LASER designated target is simple Recon points unlimited ammo/time gadget at target any Engineer can see up 500m away swap point and fire from even behind cover.

    What does a mortar designated area get a flare that that slow reduces in area has limited ammo so unlikely to fire a second, a guy that has to swap, place and then fire hoping he is with in range to land and quick enough to land in a MDA or has to sit there waiting for a flare.

    Mortar individual spam is very limited even multiple mortar spam is rare.

    These thread have very little to do with an actual problem and more about eliminating a style of play some in the community can not accept. Look at the sniper threads where rifles have been heavily nerfed and yet some still asking for more or that DICE have made Rifle/Hand grenades almost worthless all in the name of spam.

    Bunch of babies, so afraid that they die to someone else.

    As for balance and teamwork you are going about in my book wrong. Gadget or vehicles should succeed at what they do solo but excel with teamwork. You mortar idea requires teamwork to barely work.

    As for the smoke extra 1 is not need when medic have a mobile smoke launcher.
  • TFBisquit
    1195 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Ahhh, the mortar. Players setting them up in their homebase, spamming the entire round for the assignment, then for their kdr.
    Ofcourse devs fix those issues by limiting deploy spots. Eventually less players use them, or were warned by server admins not to overuse them etc etc.
    Mortar contributes NOTHING to an online fps game, it even takes away some of the immersiveness one can experience playing other roles.
    Then getting killed out of nowhere isn't much fun either.
    So with V1 missiles, that hard to take out defender is still killable, and there are plenty of other ways to take those out. No mortar needed.
    I actualy never saw anything positive about mortars, in any fps game upto the present.
  • madman001able
    611 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    rainkloud wrote: »
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    You don't see the problem with this? It would be either OP for clans or useless on public servers the same occurred in BF3/4. By the way the Assist lock-on launcher could still be used solo.

    You don't need to be in a clan to use teamwork. There's lots of times when i've been able to coordinate with strangers. Sometimes directly and sometimes indirectly. And even in the absence of any coordination there's going to be flares dropped on the battlefield rather frequently and depending on the map and mode there are hot spots that get targeted frequently. Once you identify those patterns you can position yourself such that you can take advantage of those spotting flares and send rounds down range.

    Am I contending that this wouldn't be especially beneficial to coordinated squads making good use of communication? Certainly not, but this goes for a great number of aspects in the game. Squads and teams that have solid communication and coordination with one another are going to excel. No surprises there.

    People don't want mortar spam so a new implementation needs to be thought out or we're going to see mortars either eliminated altogether or limited to representation via call in strike. I don't look as these restrictions so much as a concession or compromise but rather as a balanced but still effective integration into the game's ecosystem.

    However, I do recognize the need to keep mortars both relevant to the battlefield and also competitive with other slots for support and towards that end I believe the mortar should also have 3 smoke rounds that can be fired anywhere without the need for flaring. This should increase their usefulness even in the absence of actionable targets.





    The 'smoke rounds' were actually white phosphorus munitions. They produced a smoke cloud and burning shrapnel that could kill. Might want to be careful where you are dropping them lol.
  • rainkloud
    548 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    rainkloud wrote: »
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    You don't see the problem with this? It would be either OP for clans or useless on public servers the same occurred in BF3/4. By the way the Assist lock-on launcher could still be used solo.

    You don't need to be in a clan to use teamwork. There's lots of times when i've been able to coordinate with strangers. Sometimes directly and sometimes indirectly. And even in the absence of any coordination there's going to be flares dropped on the battlefield rather frequently and depending on the map and mode there are hot spots that get targeted frequently. Once you identify those patterns you can position yourself such that you can take advantage of those spotting flares and send rounds down range.

    Am I contending that this wouldn't be especially beneficial to coordinated squads making good use of communication? Certainly not, but this goes for a great number of aspects in the game. Squads and teams that have solid communication and coordination with one another are going to excel. No surprises there.

    People don't want mortar spam so a new implementation needs to be thought out or we're going to see mortars either eliminated altogether or limited to representation via call in strike. I don't look as these restrictions so much as a concession or compromise but rather as a balanced but still effective integration into the game's ecosystem.

    However, I do recognize the need to keep mortars both relevant to the battlefield and also competitive with other slots for support and towards that end I believe the mortar should also have 3 smoke rounds that can be fired anywhere without the need for flaring. This should increase their usefulness even in the absence of actionable targets.




    How do you coordinate with a Scout? VOIP. Not going to happen. A LASER designated target is simple Recon points unlimited ammo/time gadget at target any Engineer can see up 500m away swap point and fire from even behind cover.

    What does a mortar designated area get a flare that that slow reduces in area has limited ammo so unlikely to fire a second, a guy that has to swap, place and then fire hoping he is with in range to land and quick enough to land in a MDA or has to sit there waiting for a flare.

    Mortar individual spam is very limited even multiple mortar spam is rare.

    These thread have very little to do with an actual problem and more about eliminating a style of play some in the community can not accept. Look at the sniper threads where rifles have been heavily nerfed and yet some still asking for more or that DICE have made Rifle/Hand grenades almost worthless all in the name of spam.

    Bunch of babies, so afraid that they die to someone else.

    As for balance and teamwork you are going about in my book wrong. Gadget or vehicles should succeed at what they do solo but excel with teamwork. You mortar idea requires teamwork to barely work.

    As for the smoke extra 1 is not need when medic have a mobile smoke launcher.

    In game chat messages can be surprisingly effective: "Make sure you guys flare target areas so I can support you with mortars." Simple yet surprisingly effective. Regarding the reducing area I would have it so that you would be able to fire in the the max target area for the entire time the flare was live. Targets would disappear as the area shrinks but you would still be able to fire within the max radius if you knew the enemy was there or say, you wanted to do area denial. You'd basically get a red circle outline of the target area that you could always fire at while the flare was live. In that circle you would have the solid red spot area filling which would diminish over time.

    The Medic smoke grenades are hand tossed thus leaving you potentially vulnerable. Being able to fire from mortar means you can fire from relative safety, fire further and fire more accurately.
  • DingoKillr
    3421 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    rainkloud wrote: »
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    rainkloud wrote: »
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    You don't see the problem with this? It would be either OP for clans or useless on public servers the same occurred in BF3/4. By the way the Assist lock-on launcher could still be used solo.

    You don't need to be in a clan to use teamwork. There's lots of times when i've been able to coordinate with strangers. Sometimes directly and sometimes indirectly. And even in the absence of any coordination there's going to be flares dropped on the battlefield rather frequently and depending on the map and mode there are hot spots that get targeted frequently. Once you identify those patterns you can position yourself such that you can take advantage of those spotting flares and send rounds down range.

    Am I contending that this wouldn't be especially beneficial to coordinated squads making good use of communication? Certainly not, but this goes for a great number of aspects in the game. Squads and teams that have solid communication and coordination with one another are going to excel. No surprises there.

    People don't want mortar spam so a new implementation needs to be thought out or we're going to see mortars either eliminated altogether or limited to representation via call in strike. I don't look as these restrictions so much as a concession or compromise but rather as a balanced but still effective integration into the game's ecosystem.

    However, I do recognize the need to keep mortars both relevant to the battlefield and also competitive with other slots for support and towards that end I believe the mortar should also have 3 smoke rounds that can be fired anywhere without the need for flaring. This should increase their usefulness even in the absence of actionable targets.




    How do you coordinate with a Scout? VOIP. Not going to happen. A LASER designated target is simple Recon points unlimited ammo/time gadget at target any Engineer can see up 500m away swap point and fire from even behind cover.

    What does a mortar designated area get a flare that that slow reduces in area has limited ammo so unlikely to fire a second, a guy that has to swap, place and then fire hoping he is with in range to land and quick enough to land in a MDA or has to sit there waiting for a flare.

    Mortar individual spam is very limited even multiple mortar spam is rare.

    These thread have very little to do with an actual problem and more about eliminating a style of play some in the community can not accept. Look at the sniper threads where rifles have been heavily nerfed and yet some still asking for more or that DICE have made Rifle/Hand grenades almost worthless all in the name of spam.

    Bunch of babies, so afraid that they die to someone else.

    As for balance and teamwork you are going about in my book wrong. Gadget or vehicles should succeed at what they do solo but excel with teamwork. You mortar idea requires teamwork to barely work.

    As for the smoke extra 1 is not need when medic have a mobile smoke launcher.

    In game chat messages can be surprisingly effective: "Make sure you guys flare target areas so I can support you with mortars." Simple yet surprisingly effective. Regarding the reducing area I would have it so that you would be able to fire in the the max target area for the entire time the flare was live. Targets would disappear as the area shrinks but you would still be able to fire within the max radius if you knew the enemy was there or say, you wanted to do area denial. You'd basically get a red circle outline of the target area that you could always fire at while the flare was live. In that circle you would have the solid red spot area filling which would diminish over time.

    The Medic smoke grenades are hand tossed thus leaving you potentially vulnerable. Being able to fire from mortar means you can fire from relative safety, fire further and fire more accurately.

    What in game chat messages are there for console? Even then chat is not always open or even written in your language of choice. Which was part of the problem with BF3/4 with the team LD on public servers which only late in game did DICE expand notification method.
  • rainkloud
    548 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    What in game chat messages are there for console? Even then chat is not always open or even written in your language of choice. Which was part of the problem with BF3/4 with the team LD on public servers which only late in game did DICE expand notification method.

    My understanding is that VOIP is much more prevalent on consoles so that would take the place of in game chat.

  • DingoKillr
    3421 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    rainkloud wrote: »
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    What in game chat messages are there for console? Even then chat is not always open or even written in your language of choice. Which was part of the problem with BF3/4 with the team LD on public servers which only late in game did DICE expand notification method.

    My understanding is that VOIP is much more prevalent on consoles so that would take the place of in game chat.

    So everyone speaks the same language?
  • rainkloud
    548 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    rainkloud wrote: »
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    What in game chat messages are there for console? Even then chat is not always open or even written in your language of choice. Which was part of the problem with BF3/4 with the team LD on public servers which only late in game did DICE expand notification method.

    My understanding is that VOIP is much more prevalent on consoles so that would take the place of in game chat.

    So everyone speaks the same language?

    You're setting an impossibly high standard when its not even remotely necessary and there's a ton of fallback positions that still make the model viable. If I join a server in Chicago chances are people will be speaking English. Possible that somebody who only speaks Esperanto joins? Sure. Do I care about those comparatively rare scenarios? No sir, I do not. You can still smoke and there's still going to be flares dropped that you can take advantage of and if you feel that there aren't enough of them then you've got other slot choices or as in my scenario you just don't pick the Mortar class.
  • DingoKillr
    3421 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Not all servers are located in mono language regions.
  • theONEFORCE
    2843 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    DingoKillr wrote: »
    People really need to actual look at what Classes have to understand why Mortar are used heavily by Support.
    From LMG not being effective at Anti-Infantry due to bipod for range and not being very effective in CQB, so engaging targets behind cover is not easy, you also have gadget issues
    1) Crossbow - useless only the FRG was effective killer however reload and resupply time to long the Rifle Grenade was far better.
    2) Limpet - effective against vehicles or wall however it is a CQB not much good on most open maps.
    3) Ammo
    4) Repair tool
    5) Mortar - both types required spam in because it was most a 2 shot kill. The HE could be effective against entrenched Infantry or vehicles.
    So most Support players would carry Mortars.

    If you want less to carry make other Support gadgets effective that actual fits the role and to reduce spam while making mortar more effective. For Mortar increase damage, increase reload time(50/50 reload/spread-accuracy time) and increase spread-accuracy size.
    Don't stop the flyover or make it harder to target with as that will make it completely worthless/useless that it may as well not be in the game. I wonder how people would like AT RPG with no ADS or any crosshairs.

    A Mortar in BFV now would most likely only have to compete against - Spot Flare, Ammo Crate or AT mines and that depends on combat role limitation. Implementing a class role with a Mortar(as I suggested) and shotguns only would be the better way to go.


    The LMG is very effective at anti infantry at all ranges including CQB.

    Sorry why is Support the lest used class why are people complain about mortar spam then?

    I made no claims that the window lickers playing BF1 were capable of actually using it properly, just that I personally destroy with it and most good players I know do the same.
  • VincentNZ
    2411 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    TFBisquit wrote: »
    Ahhh, the mortar. Players setting them up in their homebase, spamming the entire round for the assignment, then for their kdr.
    Ofcourse devs fix those issues by limiting deploy spots. Eventually less players use them, or were warned by server admins not to overuse them etc etc.
    Mortar contributes NOTHING to an online fps game, it even takes away some of the immersiveness one can experience playing other roles.
    Then getting killed out of nowhere isn't much fun either.
    So with V1 missiles, that hard to take out defender is still killable, and there are plenty of other ways to take those out. No mortar needed.
    I actualy never saw anything positive about mortars, in any fps game upto the present.

    Well it does what it says on the tin. It is an indirect fire gagdet, same as a grenade, mostly used to flush someone out of a better position/cover. It is a tactical tool. Especially in a game where fortifications are so prevalent I would say that there is something needed that provides that role.
    Truthfully the V1 is a tool like that, but that is way too strong to be used tactically, it is used to boost one's K/D as it nets free kills.
    Personally I like indirect fire gadgets, because it widens the skill level. There is not only twitch reflexes, but a sort of tactical thinking involved.
  • SkiLLzRico
    2 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    I personally loved Mortars in BF1 not even using them necessarily but just seeing random explosions everywhere made it more epic and they are a great counter to well dug in positions meaning the attacking team gets more of a chance at succeeding with an attack. Also getting killed by them is amusing, if you are getting killed too many times by mortars you can just move more its not hard.
  • Noromiz
    290 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    How can people think it is more enjoyable to be killed by a sniper than a mortar?
    Both of those kill you without you ever seeing it coming...

    I loved to use the Mortar back in BF4 and BF Vietnam (even if I sucked at it), and if they removed the overhead map and made you have a sight showing "drop-off"/"range indicators" (e.g. a marker at 25 m, 50 m, 75 m, 100 m) or something like that, then I can't see how this could be an issue.
    Especially now that spotting is somewhat gone.
  • madman001able
    611 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Yup. Simply removing the mini map aiming, and gopro equipped bombs would make a huge difference.
  • WinterWarhurst
    1319 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    There's no spotting in hardcore mode in BF1, and guess what, nobody uses mortars!
  • BetaFief
    655 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    There's no spotting in hardcore mode in BF1, and guess what, nobody uses mortars!

    I think that's largely because the Mortars in BF1 are balanced around spotting being a thing. So when there's no spotting, the shortcomings designed to "balance" mortars(in normal mode) render them pretty useless for hardcore.


    The "ultimate problem" with mortars in battlefield is there's no good way to implement them; at least not when "only 4 classes, no class limits, no faction-weapon-restrictions; everyone is useful at infantry combat all the time"-is a thing..
    Perhaps if that paradigm could be broken( or if the PC version of BF:V or BF:6/VI had moddable servers) we could see experiments and concepts actually tested to make mortars "fit" better.
  • zterrans
    144 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Noromiz wrote: »
    How can people think it is more enjoyable to be killed by a sniper than a mortar?
    Both of those kill you without you ever seeing it coming...

    I loved to use the Mortar back in BF4 and BF Vietnam (even if I sucked at it), and if they removed the overhead map and made you have a sight showing "drop-off"/"range indicators" (e.g. a marker at 25 m, 50 m, 75 m, 100 m) or something like that, then I can't see how this could be an issue.
    Especially now that spotting is somewhat gone.

    Stop main camp deployment and use that system so they have to try and dial in the range without the point and click map setup, and you could have strong mortars that aren't bad.

    Of course youd have issues with points being dead giveaways on range, but im sure such things coukd be dealt with.
  • madman001able
    611 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    BetaFief wrote: »
    There's no spotting in hardcore mode in BF1, and guess what, nobody uses mortars!

    I think that's largely because the Mortars in BF1 are balanced around spotting being a thing. So when there's no spotting, the shortcomings designed to "balance" mortars(in normal mode) render them pretty useless for hardcore.


    The "ultimate problem" with mortars in battlefield is there's no good way to implement them; at least not when "only 4 classes, no class limits, no faction-weapon-restrictions; everyone is useful at infantry combat all the time"-is a thing..
    Perhaps if that paradigm could be broken( or if the PC version of BF:V or BF:6/VI had moddable servers) we could see experiments and concepts actually tested to make mortars "fit" better.

    Reinforcement option would work, make it a bit expensive to use so it cannot be spammed, and use the binocular style of aiming that the V-1 currently uses.
  • Noromiz
    290 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    I just started playing BF1 this week (didn't notice that Road to Battlefield V works with BF4...) and yesterday I met my first enemy spamming shells with the Arty Truck from out of bounds (hidden behind a cliff in their spawn).
    And yep, that really needs to be something you can't do in Battlefield 5 (or 1 for that matter), but it could be somewhat easily solved by disabling the weapon while in the spawn or severely limiting it in some way, though that would make it harder to make a comeback if you have been pushed all the way back.
  • HardAimedKid
    11385 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Mortars are for bks. Saw too many prime examples of this on bf1. Wouldn't hurt most people's feelings if they were never put in the game.
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