Weekly Debrief

An alternative to Sweet Spots

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ashar_saleem121
1207 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
I wasn't sure whether to put this in the BFV section or here since it's obviously too late for BF1 but might be taken into account for BFV

Most people who played BF1 tend to have a common complaint regarding the sweet spot mechanic which allows OHK from 100hp with chest shots at certain ranges for most bolt action rifles. This complaint is very valid.

Even people who play scout will agree that the sweet spot mechanic did allow for cheap kills just because you were a certain distance from the enemy. This took away a lot of the skill required to land headshots and made scout more accessible for more people. The last part of which I don't think is a bad thing since it is one of the 4 main classes.

The thinking behind the sweet spot mechanic was that it would allow for variety in the scout class beyond the basic velocity, fire rate and bullet drop variables and introduce some thought into which rifle to select for different situations, which it did. But at what cost?

I would like to suggest a sort of toned down version of this mechanic. All the rifles would keep the ranges of max damage they currently have but the max damage value would be capped at 90 or 85 or even 80.

This would renove OHK from sweet spot range but would still allow for assist as kill potential and finishing off damaged enemies. It would remove the cheese factor of sweet spots while still allowing the rifles to maintain their uniqueness and also re incentivize head shots. It would keep scout viable as a PTFO class for the people having the skill to do it while also putting them at a disadvantage against other classes.

One more addition I would like to make is to make headshots with all bolt actions be a OHK. Currently at long distance the Carcano can hit for 97 on a headshot. That should be a kill IMO. Similar with the Russian Trench. Headshot should equal kill with bolt action rifles.

I would like to know what people who don't like the scout class think of this proposal.

Comments

  • Gforce81
    3666 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    I would be for it. Like you said, when we're comparing bolt-action rifles, you can only change so much before you're out of traits to change to make them feel different.

    I would support a "Sweetspot lite" to allow increased damage (not OHK) depending on certain distances between the rifles
  • RRedux
    671 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Sadly, I feel it's unlikely they will spend any resources on fixing bf1 issues with bf5 right around the corner.
  • von_Campenstein
    6568 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    edited October 2018
    There is nothing that needs to be fixed in regards to bolt action rifles. The SMG 08 on the other hand.
  • Gforce81
    3666 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    There is nothing that needs to be fixed in regards to bolt action rifles. The SMG 08 on the other hand.

    I genuinely feel the "new" SMG 08 post-update is a pure middle finger to the constant complaints about the HR.

    sucks cause it was interesting, slow ROF but high mag count beforehand. They removed any of my interest in it when they upped the ROF
  • ashar_saleem121
    1207 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    There is nothing that needs to be fixed in regards to bolt action rifles. The SMG 08 on the other hand.

    I don't mind the bolt actions as they are but Im in the pro scout camp. I do see the argument against sweet spot OHK though. And I'd like to extend an olive branch for a happy medium.
  • Callahan44er
    5062 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    There is nothing that needs to be fixed in regards to bolt action rifles. The SMG 08 on the other hand.

    On range it sucks,ribeyroles is much better imo. Howell automatic is also extremly good. But compared to other bfs weapon balance is ok overall,no need to change something.
  • von_Campenstein
    6568 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    There is nothing that needs to be fixed in regards to bolt action rifles. The SMG 08 on the other hand.

    I don't mind the bolt actions as they are but Im in the pro scout camp. I do see the argument against sweet spot OHK though. And I'd like to extend an olive branch for a happy medium.

    I doubt many Scouts rely on the sweetspot for kills, it's just something that happens sometimes, just like people hosing you down for the accidental headshot.
  • ashar_saleem121
    1207 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    There is nothing that needs to be fixed in regards to bolt action rifles. The SMG 08 on the other hand.

    I don't mind the bolt actions as they are but Im in the pro scout camp. I do see the argument against sweet spot OHK though. And I'd like to extend an olive branch for a happy medium.

    I doubt many Scouts rely on the sweetspot for kills, it's just something that happens sometimes, just like people hosing you down for the accidental headshot.

    I agree that most PTFO scouts don't really play for the sweet spot but I maybe tend to notice it more now than I used to on snipers way off in the distance. Also, I notice it much more now when I kill people using the Lebel or even the G Liu bolt action mode. It just doesn't feel as good beyond the troll factor for the medic sweet spotting a sniper looking at you
  • magosnow
    607 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    edited October 2018
    I wonder how many times ,in 100 martini stars,i've been called a camping something.
    Anyway sweetspot is totally gone in bfv ,and probably won't ever return as only those who don't like it,vent their frustration with bad feedback. Enjoy your 10 reskin rifles on bfv.
    Post edited by magosnow on
  • Imabaka70
    2432 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    The only guns sorta rely on the sweet spot is the martini sniper(get trolled lol) and the vetterilli.

    My most used rifle is the m1903 sniper and it’s the hardest to abuse the sweet spot running and gunning with.

    Thing is some scout players do camp their sweet spot range. I’ve watched them run to spots to be in that range laying prone looking at the flag.
  • MegaloDorian
    910 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    While I wouldn't be opposed to decreasing the maximum damage down to something like 95, I still actually like the "sweet spot" mechanic. It actually encourages Scouts to play an "overwatch" role, which should have always been the case. Manual-action rifles in most other Battlefield titles were made to be used either in a "ghetto shotgun" role or a "long range sniper" role, with the former being downright ludicrous and the latter being unproductive to objective play. Battlefield 1 has the best implementation of manual-action rifles in the franchise for objective play without resorting to jumping around and quickscoping people as if the game were CoD.

    Even if Battlefield 1's implementation is considered "too much," butchering the damage, a la Battlefield V, isn't the answer. One of three things, or a mix of them, should be done.

    1. What the OP suggested. Keep the damage curve, but don't have it reach and/or exceed 100. Something like 90 or 95 at maximum.

    2. Have a flat damage model where damage doesn't raise or drop over range, similar to the likes of Battlefield 2 and other Refractor engine games.

    3. Bring back the classic damage drop, but keep the maximum damage under 100 and the minimum damage not much lower than the maximum. Something along the lines of Battlefield 1's Gewehr M.95. If we're to see a steep damage drop-off, that should be reserved for legitimate "bush wookie" ranges (like 250+ meters).
  • RudeAwakeningEh
    529 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited October 2018
    Headshots should be the only 1HK. Cheesy bolt action deaths water down the class to me.

    BF4 had a 1HK radius around 0-15m if I'm not mistaken but it could he counteracted by running the defensive perk. Which is fair.
  • Ploodovic
    1642 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    I mainly play scout, and I mostly change rifles based on the expected engagement range on the current map. Meaning, on infantry focused close range maps, I choose Vetterli, Martini, M95, Ross, or Russian Trench; either fast firing or high damage on close range.

    Medium ranges it’s M95, SMLE, and Russian Sniper, and long range Gewehr 98 or M1903. I like the sweet spot mechanic as a differentiator. But, the OHK feels cheap. Keeping the mechanic, but lowering maximum damage to 90-95 would be perfectly fine by me. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’ve previously suggested something like this on this forum.

    Looks like we’re not going to see this in BFV, though.
  • ninjapenquinuk
    1842 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    There is an additional problem with balancing sniper rifles in BFV - namely attrition. There will be many, many more players running around on low health than there are in BF1, so even lowish damage rifles, 70 dmg say, will still effectively be OHK a lot of the time
  • ashar_saleem121
    1207 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    There is an additional problem with balancing sniper rifles in BFV - namely attrition. There will be many, many more players running around on low health than there are in BF1, so even lowish damage rifles, 70 dmg say, will still effectively be OHK a lot of the time

    Im sure that was the original intent but with the addition of those medic pouches and then giving everyone one to start with by default, you dont see it nearly as much as expected. Most enemies are full health when you engage. Once they added those pouches they needed to change tge damage model to match


    Imabaka70 wrote: »
    The only guns sorta rely on the sweet spot is the martini sniper(get trolled lol) and the vetterilli.

    My most used rifle is the m1903 sniper and it’s the hardest to abuse the sweet spot running and gunning with.

    Thing is some scout players do camp their sweet spot range. I’ve watched them run to spots to be in that range laying prone looking at the flag.

    Which is exactly the kind of thing lowering the max damage to 90 would help prevent. You would have time to react and regen if they hit you with a body shot.
    While I wouldn't be opposed to decreasing the maximum damage down to something like 95, I still actually like the "sweet spot" mechanic. It actually encourages Scouts to play an "overwatch" role, which should have always been the case. Manual-action rifles in most other Battlefield titles were made to be used either in a "ghetto shotgun" role or a "long range sniper" role, with the former being downright ludicrous and the latter being unproductive to objective play. Battlefield 1 has the best implementation of manual-action rifles in the franchise for objective play without resorting to jumping around and quickscoping people as if the game were CoD.

    Even if Battlefield 1's implementation is considered "too much," butchering the damage, a la Battlefield V, isn't the answer. One of three things, or a mix of them, should be done.

    1. What the OP suggested. Keep the damage curve, but don't have it reach and/or exceed 100. Something like 90 or 95 at maximum.

    2. Have a flat damage model where damage doesn't raise or drop over range, similar to the likes of Battlefield 2 and other Refractor engine games.

    3. Bring back the classic damage drop, but keep the maximum damage under 100 and the minimum damage not much lower than the maximum. Something along the lines of Battlefield 1's Gewehr M.95. If we're to see a steep damage drop-off, that should be reserved for legitimate "bush wookie" ranges (like 250+ meters).
    Ploodovic wrote: »
    I mainly play scout, and I mostly change rifles based on the expected engagement range on the current map. Meaning, on infantry focused close range maps, I choose Vetterli, Martini, M95, Ross, or Russian Trench; either fast firing or high damage on close range.

    Medium ranges it’s M95, SMLE, and Russian Sniper, and long range Gewehr 98 or M1903. I like the sweet spot mechanic as a differentiator. But, the OHK feels cheap. Keeping the mechanic, but lowering maximum damage to 90-95 would be perfectly fine by me. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’ve previously suggested something like this on this forum.

    Looks like we’re not going to see this in BFV, though.

    It seems like most people are in agreement with the idea. In any case, I havent seen any oppostion to it
  • Miles_Vappa
    264 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Albeit it depends on the rifles other stats (martini henry for instance might not apply) i think the best fix would have been 50% rediction in range of the sweet spot ( so if smle has a sweet spot of 35-65 it would instead be 42-57) and decrease of minimum damage 80 to 55

    As somebody who played recon only in previous titles the recon class was already made far too easy by increased velocity and increased minimum damage, generally speaking, sweet spot was never needed, but the above is a good compromise
  • ashar_saleem121
    1207 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Albeit it depends on the rifles other stats (martini henry for instance might not apply) i think the best fix would have been 50% rediction in range of the sweet spot ( so if smle has a sweet spot of 35-65 it would instead be 42-57) and decrease of minimum damage 80 to 55

    As somebody who played recon only in previous titles the recon class was already made far too easy by increased velocity and increased minimum damage, generally speaking, sweet spot was never needed, but the above is a good compromise

    The minimum damage of 55 is way way too low. Thats the whole problem with the BFV model. Thats why I think they should just reduce max damage and keep min damage the same.

    I think @Sixclicks would agree with my proposal
  • Sixclicks
    5073 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    I have no issue with having no sweetspots as long as max damage stays around what it is currently outside of sweetspots. The only weapon that might suffer a lot without one would be the Martini-Henry.
  • Miles_Vappa
    264 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Albeit it depends on the rifles other stats (martini henry for instance might not apply) i think the best fix would have been 50% rediction in range of the sweet spot ( so if smle has a sweet spot of 35-65 it would instead be 42-57) and decrease of minimum damage 80 to 55

    As somebody who played recon only in previous titles the recon class was already made far too easy by increased velocity and increased minimum damage, generally speaking, sweet spot was never needed, but the above is a good compromise

    The minimum damage of 55 is way way too low. Thats the whole problem with the BFV model. Thats why I think they should just reduce max damage and keep min damage the same.

    I think @Sixclicks would agree with my proposal

    Why is 55 too low? Still a 2 shot skill and decreases the number of random instant kills for when you are only slightly injured

  • Sixclicks
    5073 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited October 2018
    Albeit it depends on the rifles other stats (martini henry for instance might not apply) i think the best fix would have been 50% rediction in range of the sweet spot ( so if smle has a sweet spot of 35-65 it would instead be 42-57) and decrease of minimum damage 80 to 55

    As somebody who played recon only in previous titles the recon class was already made far too easy by increased velocity and increased minimum damage, generally speaking, sweet spot was never needed, but the above is a good compromise

    The minimum damage of 55 is way way too low. Thats the whole problem with the BFV model. Thats why I think they should just reduce max damage and keep min damage the same.

    I think @Sixclicks would agree with my proposal

    Why is 55 too low? Still a 2 shot skill and decreases the number of random instant kills for when you are only slightly injured

    It hinders more aggressive recon play. A two hit kill with the Enfield has a TTK of 833 ms (178% more than the STG). Thus your only chance at surviving such an encounter is swapping to your pistol to finish off the kill after hitting them once with your rifle. When your rifle only does a max damage of 60 and a min damage of 55, you'll need 2-5 more hits with your pistol to finish the kill depending on which pistol you're using (based on the ones we've seen thus far). By then you're well past dead. In BF1, this tactic was actually viable because it only took one or two more hits with your pistol to finish a kill. This method was still a little slower to kill in close quarters than automatic weapons, but it was at least a viable option.

    And before you say, "well bolt actions shouldn't be used in close range", the STG can kill you at max distance in 500 ms. That's also faster than the 2 hit TTK of the Enfield. Put it in semi-auto mode, and it's practically a laser beam DMR. Not to mention, weapons shouldn't be balanced around staying as far away from the objective as possible in a game that's centered on playing the objective.
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