It's time to look at updating the Repair Tool

2

Comments

  • rainkloud
    548 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    No you haven't, they only thing you've done successfully is to continue to prove my point.

    There's no justification for being able to sit back in corner of a map firing from a distance while a repair bro sponges damage for you. I'm truly sorry that you're either unable or unwilling to acknowledge this.
  • madman001able
    611 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    rainkloud wrote: »
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    No you haven't, they only thing you've done successfully is to continue to prove my point.

    There's no justification for being able to sit back in corner of a map firing from a distance while a repair bro sponges damage for you. I'm truly sorry that you're either unable or unwilling to acknowledge this.

    That is what dive bombers are for lol.
  • ProAssassin2003
    3041 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Like the ability for everyone to revive someone everybody should have the ability to repair vehicles.
  • DeadlyDanDaMan
    615 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited October 2018
    Like the ability for everyone to revive someone everybody should have the ability to repair vehicles.

    Maybe Support can have the repair tool at all times, but every other class can choose to use a gadget slot for it? I'd be okay with that, and it still makes Support the repair specialist (just like Medic is the healing specialist), so it would be somewhat balanced.
  • ninjapenquinuk
    1719 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    i thought in BFV support will always have the repair tool
  • DeadlyDanDaMan
    615 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    i thought in BFV support will always have the repair tool

    They will.
  • Trokey66
    8075 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    rainkloud wrote: »
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    No you haven't, they only thing you've done successfully is to continue to prove my point.

    There's no justification for being able to sit back in corner of a map firing from a distance while a repair bro sponges damage for you. I'm truly sorry that you're either unable or unwilling to acknowledge this.

    And where did I say it was OK?

    Point proven yet again.......
  • ragnarok013
    2564 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    rainkloud wrote: »

    I agree, I'd kill to have the engineer class return. I've not liked the new class system since it debuted in BF1 not to mention the self repair from the driver seat which I think minimized the need for a real repairman. As a support most people think why should I take a gadget slot up with a repair tool and risk an outside repair if the driver's just going to repair it himself from the safety of his vehicle.

    I think the repair tool is embedded in the support class now and is not in slot competition. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    It might be, I've forgotten some of the finer points of BF5 since the Beta but the whole "why should I get out and get shot when the driver will repair it from inside" is still a valid concern for a support player. In BF1 it seemed that people only repaired vehicles as support when there was an assignment to do, otherwise I think I saw more sasquatch on the Battlefield than repairmen.
  • rainkloud
    548 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    rainkloud wrote: »
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    No you haven't, they only thing you've done successfully is to continue to prove my point.

    There's no justification for being able to sit back in corner of a map firing from a distance while a repair bro sponges damage for you. I'm truly sorry that you're either unable or unwilling to acknowledge this.

    And where did I say it was OK?

    Point proven yet again.......

    And where did I say you said it was Okay?

    I presented solutions to a legitimate issue and you initially responded with a series of needlessly inflammatory statements like "Why do I get the feeling that despite a well written post, the OP has never or at least rarely repaired vehicles?" and "I was going to respond but then I saw your last statement and decided you are talking complete Gentleman's dangly bits so I'm out."

    Whenever you're ready to make some positive contributions to the discussion please let us know. In the meantime I'll keep dealing with the facts.
  • Trokey66
    8075 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    rainkloud wrote: »
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    No you haven't, they only thing you've done successfully is to continue to prove my point.

    There's no justification for being able to sit back in corner of a map firing from a distance while a repair bro sponges damage for you.I'm truly sorry that you're either unable or unwilling to acknowledge this.

    here.......

    You are looking for.problems where none exist.

    I only have 4574 repairs in BF1 yet I am top 0.1% in the world and that is ridiculous!

    6000 ish in BF4 was low and 35,000 in BF3 was respectable.

    Comparatively speaking, I do wonder how few repairs you have done.

    Repairing needs to be encouraged and NOT made harder, perhaps if.more repaired there would be less camping tonks. A Repair Monkey allows a Tonk to be more agressive and stay closer to objectives because he does not have to retreat to safety to repair.

    Whilst repping, even with the Tonk between him and the 'general direction' of likely enemy action, the Repair Monkey is blind because he has to face the vehicle and unarmed and therefore extremely vulnerable.

    And to suggest any teamwork that can result in 'OPness' needs rebalanced is indeed, complete Gentleman's dangly bits.
  • rainkloud
    548 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    rainkloud wrote: »

    I agree, I'd kill to have the engineer class return. I've not liked the new class system since it debuted in BF1 not to mention the self repair from the driver seat which I think minimized the need for a real repairman. As a support most people think why should I take a gadget slot up with a repair tool and risk an outside repair if the driver's just going to repair it himself from the safety of his vehicle.

    I think the repair tool is embedded in the support class now and is not in slot competition. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    It might be, I've forgotten some of the finer points of BF5 since the Beta but the whole "why should I get out and get shot when the driver will repair it from inside" is still a valid concern for a support player. In BF1 it seemed that people only repaired vehicles as support when there was an assignment to do, otherwise I think I saw more sasquatch on the Battlefield than repairmen.

    The driver can only repair to a certain extent from the inside. This is a major change from BF1. They cannot reach full health unless they either repair from outside or repair at a vehicle depot.

    > In BF1 it seemed that people only repaired vehicles as support when there was an assignment to do, otherwise I think I saw more sasquatch on the Battlefield than repairmen.

    I think some people have a unrealistic expectation of being repaired. They are under the impression that any time they incur damage they should have swarms of repair tool wielding units assisting them and if that doesn't happen then people exclaim that "nobody repairs." You hear this same thing about medics "nobody revives" and supports "nobody dishes ammo" but the reality is that in my experience in beta people did all those things and this was a beta where people may not be fully versed in all the mechanics. Because it doesn't always happen when we need it though we have a unconscious bias towards a line of thought that thinks "I am the only person who ever revives, repairs, supplies..."

    The thing I keep coming back to is that being able to receive repairs that restore health while actively sustaining damage doesn't make for good vehicle game play. It's a cheesey way of cheating death. It looks bad, plays bad and it's simply not intuitive nor does it gel with all the other recent changes like scarcity and attrition. Allowing for repairs that are interruptible by damage doesn't render repairs useless as you'll still need external repairs if you aren't near a vehicle depot as internal repairs have a max threshold. Repairs will be reduced somewhat but certainly not eliminated which is fine. Repairing is like everything else in the game - it has its time and place and it's time and place should be in an area of relative safety where the vehicle is not taking incoming damage.

    This will lead to more depth in repairs - smarter gameplay.
  • Trokey66
    8075 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    rainkloud wrote: »

    I agree, I'd kill to have the engineer class return. I've not liked the new class system since it debuted in BF1 not to mention the self repair from the driver seat which I think minimized the need for a real repairman. As a support most people think why should I take a gadget slot up with a repair tool and risk an outside repair if the driver's just going to repair it himself from the safety of his vehicle.

    I think the repair tool is embedded in the support class now and is not in slot competition. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    It might be, I've forgotten some of the finer points of BF5 since the Beta but the whole "why should I get out and get shot when the driver will repair it from inside" is still a valid concern for a support player. In BF1 it seemed that people only repaired vehicles as support when there was an assignment to do, otherwise I think I saw more sasquatch on the Battlefield than repairmen.

    When I rep for mates, the health of the Tonk is paramount.

    Thier good KD is my bad KD in those circumstances but a Tonk that can stay close to the squad/team is worth its weight in gold.

    Making the Repair Monkey's job harder will only discourage what few repairs are carried out and therefore potentially encourage camping vehicle play.
  • madman001able
    611 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited October 2018
    The obvious reason that nobody gets the repair tool but support is because dice does not want to see vehicles getting insta-repaired. It will still be interesting to see how fast a group of support players will repair a vehicle though, for testing sake.
  • rainkloud
    548 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    The obvious reason that nobody gets the repair tool but support is because dice does not want to see vehicles getting insta-repaired. It will still be interesting to see how fast a group of support players will repair a vehicle though, for testing sake.

    I don't know how it was handled in BF1 but in BF4 I remember this was a huge problem with the little bird so they reduced the rate that the second (and subsequent) repair person could repair at. Not sure if that applied to tanks as well but I believe it did. Basically it was diminishing returns which is the right way to handle it.
  • DingoKillr
    3429 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    rainkloud wrote: »
    The obvious reason that nobody gets the repair tool but support is because dice does not want to see vehicles getting insta-repaired. It will still be interesting to see how fast a group of support players will repair a vehicle though, for testing sake.

    I don't know how it was handled in BF1 but in BF4 I remember this was a huge problem with the little bird so they reduced the rate that the second (and subsequent) repair person could repair at. Not sure if that applied to tanks as well but I believe it did. Basically it was diminishing returns which is the right way to handle it.
    Yes, the repair rate was lowered in BF4 because even a single engineer could out repair an Engineer with AA.

    BF1 repair rate is questionable because of the Rate of Damage/Ammo Supply. A Tank could use all 6 shells pull back get the next shell faster than they could get self repaired that shot, while single Assault damage output can be hamped be a Single Repair Monkey.

    If BFV keeps a similar rate the only issue at this point is Tank v Tank.

    A Vehicle camping with Support at distance might survive longer but thanks to attrition system that vehicles is not going to be much use beyond a MG pillar box.

    A repair tool that does Block or individual parts is not going to help vehicle usage it will make it even worse.
    1) Block repair requires no interruption so a Support player can only repair when it is ok to do so, and when is that? When a tank is behind cover or far behind the lines, which means that half the time a Support player is not going to be near.

    2) individuals parts is even worse now up to 20% to 60% of a Tank(separate turret) health is unrepairable in combat by Support but those area can still take damage. So the only repair is out of combat behind the lines, thus the same lack of Support as block.

    This even encourages drivers to abandon their tanks due to having to travel out of combat to get to repair or have their tanks stolen while they are repairing.

    Tanks need to be aggressive what level is the issue.
  • ragnarok013
    2564 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    rainkloud wrote: »

    I agree, I'd kill to have the engineer class return. I've not liked the new class system since it debuted in BF1 not to mention the self repair from the driver seat which I think minimized the need for a real repairman. As a support most people think why should I take a gadget slot up with a repair tool and risk an outside repair if the driver's just going to repair it himself from the safety of his vehicle.

    I think the repair tool is embedded in the support class now and is not in slot competition. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    It might be, I've forgotten some of the finer points of BF5 since the Beta but the whole "why should I get out and get shot when the driver will repair it from inside" is still a valid concern for a support player. In BF1 it seemed that people only repaired vehicles as support when there was an assignment to do, otherwise I think I saw more sasquatch on the Battlefield than repairmen.

    When I rep for mates, the health of the Tonk is paramount.

    Thier good KD is my bad KD in those circumstances but a Tonk that can stay close to the squad/team is worth its weight in gold.

    Making the Repair Monkey's job harder will only discourage what few repairs are carried out and therefore potentially encourage camping vehicle play.

    I agree, when I play a class I play its role and as an engineer I'd make repairing our vehicles paramount. I've never cared much for my KD honestly, I've always care more about doing my role and winning the game than going on killing sprees but killing sprees are fun. I think they need to remove self repair from the vehicle and return to the pre-BF1 system since the current in vehicle repair is a cheesy mechanic and further dilutes the need for the classes in my opinion.
  • Trokey66
    8075 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    The inability to internally repair to full health and the fact that the Repair Tool is a 'permenant gadget' may return external repairs to the fore.

    To be honest automatic health regen was a tad 'cheesy'.
  • rainkloud
    548 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    DingoKillr wrote: »

    >A Vehicle camping with Support at distance might survive longer but thanks to attrition system that vehicles is not going to be much use beyond a MG pillar box.

    I don't get what you mean. A vehicle camping with a support (regardless of distance) will be in a good position to sponge damage and fully expend ammo and then repeat after replenishing.

    > 1) Block repair requires no interruption so a Support player can only repair when it is ok to do so, and when is that? When a tank is behind cover or far behind the lines, which means that half the time a Support player is not going to be near.

    Which is fine. Unless you're working with people you know you're not always going to have someone around to repair. Repairs aren't something that you can expect all the time. People seem to have the impression that it is an entitlement but the reality is that it is a bonus. If there are no supports around to repair then you have the option to self repair and then jump back into the fray at less than 100 health or drive back to a depot. There's risks to both strategies and that makes for good game design. Tanks are supposed to aggressive yes but not to the point of absurdity. There's an ebb and flow to combat and while you're retreating your tank back behind lines that means that other players on both teams are adapting and taking advantage of that situation. Your "bad" times are there "good" times and if people exercised more macro thought and empathy then they would be able to see the bigger picture and not always focus on ME ME ME.

    Good teams will have good supports that will be able to see when a vehicle is getting tagged and then follow them into safety and repair them. Bad teams will have bad supports who try to repair during combat and will end up wasting their time as punishment for their lack of situational awareness. Block repair adds depth and requires perception and these are generally interpreted as positive things to incorporate into game mechanics.
  • rainkloud
    548 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    rainkloud wrote: »

    I agree, I'd kill to have the engineer class return. I've not liked the new class system since it debuted in BF1 not to mention the self repair from the driver seat which I think minimized the need for a real repairman. As a support most people think why should I take a gadget slot up with a repair tool and risk an outside repair if the driver's just going to repair it himself from the safety of his vehicle.

    I think the repair tool is embedded in the support class now and is not in slot competition. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    It might be, I've forgotten some of the finer points of BF5 since the Beta but the whole "why should I get out and get shot when the driver will repair it from inside" is still a valid concern for a support player. In BF1 it seemed that people only repaired vehicles as support when there was an assignment to do, otherwise I think I saw more sasquatch on the Battlefield than repairmen.

    When I rep for mates, the health of the Tonk is paramount.

    Thier good KD is my bad KD in those circumstances but a Tonk that can stay close to the squad/team is worth its weight in gold.

    Making the Repair Monkey's job harder will only discourage what few repairs are carried out and therefore potentially encourage camping vehicle play.

    I agree, when I play a class I play its role and as an engineer I'd make repairing our vehicles paramount. I've never cared much for my KD honestly, I've always care more about doing my role and winning the game than going on killing sprees but killing sprees are fun. I think they need to remove self repair from the vehicle and return to the pre-BF1 system since the current in vehicle repair is a cheesy mechanic and further dilutes the need for the classes in my opinion.

    The current system in BFV strikes a good balance. You can self repair to a respectable rate internally and this is good because it helps prevent vehicle hijackings. Of course full health requires depot or external repairs. I think it's the best of all worlds and to be fair repairs to vehicles did indeed take place inside vehicles as well so there is thematic precedent as well.
  • BetaFief
    655 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    MONEYPYR0 wrote: »
    Very well thought out, and well presented, but here's my main issue.

    There's no Engineer class anymore.

    There isn't a dedicated Repairman anymore, since the repair tool has been repurposed to the Support class, and I can bet that not many Support players will be using the Repair Tool often. I noticed in BF1, most vehicle repair happens from the vehicle operator, instead of from a soldier on the outside. People just didnt seem to care to repair vehicles, unless they were the one driving. So I feel the lack of a real Engineer class is going to mean there's less people looking to repair vehicles, unless they're the one driving. I dont know, I never see people repairing tanks in BF1, and I feel like BFV won't be much different.

    Honestly I'd don't know what DICE is thinking going with this "oh now we've got these combat roles" or "archetypes"-thing, instead of just introducing more than 4 classes.
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