The Plane Adjustments have BROKEN flying in BFV, and it has little to do with Bombers.

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  • ACS_SB4lifeNL
    20 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2018
    I'm a pilot. I'm a good pilot, I'm by no means one of the best, but I fly whenever there is a plane to be flown. I've got nearly 100 hours in planes alone, I've upgraded almost every plane fully.

    And this update scares me.

    I started out BFV, like manyfolks, in the Beta. What I saw there were some REALLY fun planes that felt FAST, felt more smooth, more responsive and felt a little bit less like they were being propelled by fairy dust rather than the laws of physics. There was an obvious mis-match between the two fighters, but this was fixed by the time the full game launched

    When the full game came out, I loved it even more. The Bombers of course were overpowered (namely the bleedingly fast JU-88), but the Blenheims for the most part felt fun and balanced, and provided really good pilots a chance to experiment in both Air-to-Ground and Air-to-Air disciplines. The fighters especially felt like a very fun and customizable tool, with the ability to be loaded out for either total Air-to-Air combat or a combination of that and Attack plane. I think any good pilot will agree that the ability to teamwipe at the beginning of a round was ridiculous (except for "pilots" who only took up flying for a chance to teamwipe with a bomber and do nothing else, claiming themselves "amazing" pilots for their efforts). I myself only flew the Junkers enough to upgrade it fully...which took ONE round. This is the level of ridiculous that the Junkers was. I shot down a dozen enemy fighters with my forward guns, I could often outmaneuver fighters with Nitrous. It, was, stupid. Conversely I enjoyed using the Blenheim 1 to do light carpet bombs, strafe the enemy and paradrop friendly troops behind enemy lines with the Paradrop specialization. It felt HELPFUL in a unique way, and it didn't feel overpowered. As a note, this was not something exclusive to the Junkers, or even to bombers. I recalled one instance wherein I was flying a Explosive 20mm and Rocket equipped BF-109 and on a beginning of round sweep on Arras I garnered an 11 player kill in a single pass. This should NOT be possible.

    The Junkers needed to be nerfed, the Stuka needed to be buffed, and to a lesser degree the "Ripsaw" 8 LMG Spitfire and "Hellfire" Explosive 20mm/Rocket combo 109 needed to be toned down.

    Instead what has occurred has been a complete and total breakdown of flying in BFV. Bombers must loiter pointlessly over the battlefield waiting for the use of their namesake, only build with multiple bomb loads are viable now, any faster but lesser armed bomber is now pointless. A bomber can easily make it from one resupply point to the other before they are able to use their bombs, it's ridiculous. I was on board with a timer for heavy weapon rearms, as we have with quick-repair, something in that same area of time, but the amount of time ANY plane (not just bombers) must wait to use their Air-to-Ground weapons right now is ludicrous, to the point of completely breaking most types of planes/playstyles.

    The Specialization tree for most planes has been unceremoniously severed in places, with no perceivable rhyme or reason. There is no "Air focused" or "Ground focused" split, it simply appears as a change for the sake of change. It did not touch any complained about weapons either, mostly fairly balanced or non-used combos like the Blenheim 1's Paradrop route (what I lovingly referred to as the Commando Blenheim) now lacking a nose blister (which I might point out was standard in nearly all Blenheims). Instead of 2 or more unique paths per aircraft, many of which had no "best" loadout but came down entirely to personal preference, we have one almost completely locked tree, and one almost customizable tree. This is NOT progress.

    The change I personally take the most issue with is the Machinegun Ammo nerf. Planes now in most (if not all) cases have LESS ammo in the game than their famously limited reserves in-real-life. A fighter must now rearm after engaging a single target if they hope to survive a second one in many cases, and that's with GOOD aim, newer pilots who are still learning will have little to no room for error when it comes to taking out a target with a single load. A good pilot who could win a 2v1 dogfight BEFORE the update now has absolutely no chance or doing so without being near a resupply point. This has the effect of making dogfights in BFV increasingly a game of chance, wherein it matters so much more if your opponent has just shot down a bomber or been nailed by flak than it does their skill or tactics. It's less and less a matter of if you can fly well, rather than if you spawn at the right time.

    AA-Tanks, while already potent to all Aircraft and unkillable to nearly all Fighter-Bomber loadouts are now even more fortified in their positions outside of the playable area. A pilot cannot call upon his squadmates or teammates to run an special and exciting mission to take out an enemy target when it is outside of the zone they can go to/see. With most Flak Tanks also deciding to camp out at resupply zones for planes, this is even more unfair to the now-constantly returning for ammo fighters. Far too often a player who loses one too many dogfights to a better pilot will simply hop in an AA tank, wait outside the zone at a resupply zone, and be invincible to their enemy. This is the Aerial equivalent of an angry tanker commanding a heavy artillery piece from outside the map and targeting tanks resupply at supply depots. It does not make sense.

    It should be noted that almost all the nerfs made to planes affect not only their class but the entire ranges of planes in BFV. Bombers too have pitiful amounts of forward facing gun ammo (and the Blenheims are glitched so that they CANNOT resupply this small amount of ammo). Conversely, fighters with small bombs or rockets must now also wait the insane amount of time to use their already rather limited air-to-ground arsenal. Some will make the argument that the 2.5x zoom makes up for this in some way, but many (if not most) pilots did strafing runs in third-person already.

    I was immensely excited for this update, but it has fallen completely flat. The Practice range is a joke, the planes have been almost entirely ruined, and there are many MANY bugs. I'm not mad about bugs, those happen, but the decisions made in regards to the planes by the team at DICE feel rushed and clumsy. It is, to quote our British announcer on Devastation "A craven betrayal of trust" for our flyers, in what to me at least felt like one of the best Battlefields ever for a pilot.

    My ideal outcome would be an immediate reversal of the Machinegun nerf, and a different system to make Bombers rearm over-time. I would suggest instead of a timer for rearming, a system in which a bomber with many or heavy bombs must pass through the resupply zone multiple times in-order to rearm. This gives them the option to go into a bombing run with a lessened load, or spend some time in a vulnerable position over the supply zone to fully rearm. As it stands all a bomber must do is make one pass and then hide until they are cleared for bomb dropping.

    Please DICE, please don't let THIS be the direction planes are taking. My friends whom never had any interest in flying in Battlefield are finally getting into it here, and this update has ruined it for them, and for me. This is, to pilots at least, a really pressing issue that NEEDS to be fixed quickly, not in the next major update.

    A plea, from a pilot.




    And all those people complaining don't realise theres people with many thousands of hours gameplay in bf who do just as good as infantry as in a plane cus they practiced all the other bf series, it's not like every player can just pick the fighter and do good with it(prepatch)Yes aa should have done more damage vs bombers from the start! But not vs fighter planes those are already easy kills for aa! The Junkers88 is the reason why all those people complained and that should have never made it into the release in that state! This patch really ruined the game for me! If you had a proper practice range from the start (with unlockable upgrades instead of stock planes nobody even want to practice in, maybe the noobs who instantly crash into the ground and cry about planes being op and not fun actually could practice flying . Have you ever even tried flying in a server dice? dont you think pilots get harrased enough by aa's out of the combat zone ! sometimes in a match theres like 4 aa's out of the combat zone just to be anoying and you even give those a buff, biggest joke i have ever seen in all these years playing bf. and trust me i've seen alot of them since my first bf in 2004. Bf3 flying was ruined by the removal of low radar vs stingers, sometimes 32 players in a team had a stinger on their back just autolocking from bushes and their base, bf4 did even worse and now we have bf5 wich completly ruined air gameplay! This is Battlefield DICE!!!! It's supposed to be a large scale warfare! Infantry is supposed to be scared and working together taking down vehicles! And what do you guys do buff the aa wich is already being used outside of the play zone! Sorry but thiis is just brainless panic patching because you want to please new players, because sales are ****, well done
  • Autorotor
    221 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Well written. This does not come as a surprise though. DICE doing the complete opposite of what the community, their investors want. Ads a load of new bugs etc.

    I have no trust in this company any more. It's obvious that they can't handle it. It's impossible to stay positive when they wreck everything they touch.

    Battlefront II and BFV suffers the same fate.

    "AAA" gaming.. Lols
  • Aircool_212
    764 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    I don't fly planes, I shoot them down. For me, the bombers were a little OP, but AA was good enough to prevent the bombers having an easy time. In fact, the AA was good enough on some maps that bomber pilots felt the need to focus on the AA guns instead of more valuable targets. As someone who enjoys shooting down aircraft, having a bomber focus on one player (me) instead of bombing objectives was a positive result for the team, even though the static AA isn't great (and often has important angles blocked by terrain) and I'd get killed by the bomber every one in three passes.

    So, apart from bombers being a little OP, I was more than comfortable with the way aircraft interacted with ground forces. The mobile AA was an effective threat albeit vulnerable to ground attack and clever pilots, so there was parity on that front.

    The only real problem was the regularity in which bombers could make a pass, and once they'd found an effective route that avoided the worst of the AA they could make regular bombing runs with very little resistance.
  • J1M_13
    8 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    warslag wrote: »
    Obviously the whole reason they make changes to planes is because they think planes turn customers off buying Battlefield.

    Game producers and gameplay developers are much bolder in their decisions in the last few years when trying to increase revenue and sales at the expense of gameplay.

    Players keep pointing out how illogical the changes are but they will be ignored because the gameplay for gameplay's sake is not the priority. Gameplay for making money informs all the devs decisions.

    It would help if the games that EA+DICE are using as influence for BF5 market-share this year had planes to give them something to copy.
  • Ben8D8over
    940 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Agreed 100%

    I´m not touching a plane until this is fixed, flying just turned into a irritating boredom combo

    The bombers needed to be nerfed for sure, less splash damage, nerf to the rear gun, 30 second spawn delay at the beginning of round, something like that
    And tone down the splash damage of the G-6 explosive rounds, sure

    All the other planes were fun and fair game, and there was no need to change them

  • AMOR_i_love_U
    31 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Yeah! the plane adjustments have broken flying, as you say. Just the JU-88 deserved to be nerfed. Why did they nerfed the other plans?
    Now spitfire it's even worse, BF-109 splash damage was reduced a lot. Long time to re-suply ammunition .... and stuka and moskito ?? What is your role in the game?
    DICE PLISSS !!!!
  • WesleyF09
    68 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2018
    I don't understand the sledgehammer nerf against the fighters, since they were not the problem.. I hope they clarify that to us, since they weren't answering properly the questions about fighter nerf on Reddit AMA yesterday
    They nerfed even the bad planes, and made the "mobile" - cause it can stay in front a resupply staion and cover the whole map with that absurd radius - AA even more stronger against infantry, planes and tanks
  • Masqerader
    641 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2018
    The destruction of bombers has shifted, it is no longer the sole responsibility of the fighter, bombers can now be effectively taken down by AA.


    They could be dropped easily before too with upgraded mobile AA, but of course instead of listening to people who actually upgraded their mobile AA and pointed this out. They listened to all the whiners who cried on twitter, reddit and these forums.

    Did bombers/fighters need a nerf, 100% but this is just overkill.

    Mobile/Stationary AA also needed a range reduction to prevent uncap camping, did that happen? nope?


    If they wanted to make it harder for bombers.

    Stop seat switching, remove 3rd person bomber "crosshair" from under the planes and make it take a few passes through the resupply to get your bomb load back. Want 16 bombs? 4 passes etc.


    I love how they constantly destroy vehicle combat to please the already OP super soldier who can absorb tank shots and keep running at you. Sure glad they balanced assault by giving other classes anti-tank stuff but nope, 1 class gets ranged, and in close kills that you literally can't do anything to stop....

    but hey at least THROWING KNIFE IS 1 HIT KILL
  • xbeastmaster420x
    3 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2018
    as someone else said better than me:
    "AA got super buffed. there's no recourse against AA for pilots. Especially on maps like Arras where they can literally shoot the entire map from their safe zone and your ground can't help you at all. The rocket pods were the fighter's only chance at taking out flak panzer and now it's useless.

    I've tried playing with my friends and they'll try to help take out AA as they're playing inf and tanks but the AA are in spawn and they can't help. If AA are going to be allowed to fire from safety of inf and tanks, then air need tools to be able to take them out."

    on maps like Arras AA just deletes aircrafts now and they can't even do anything. i completely agree with the bomber nerfs, but fighters (and their ground tools) should've been untouched. dropping 2x500 bombs on a tank and all i get is half damage. AA is untouchable and deletes you in any plane.

    airplanes were turned into rubbish and they're super boring to play now (and unplayable on Arras if one enemy is camping flaks.)

    edit: seriously, look at this https://www.reddit.com/r/BattlefieldV/comments/a3mszv/the_current_status_of_the_stukab2_with_37mm/

    it's a complete joke. he does 80 damage after several shots on target. if the enemy had an AA on the map he would be 100% dead so he could deal 1/4th damage to a tank.
  • Rogue-Mike
    296 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    edited December 2018
    All other planes except the JU88 were rather fair. Frankly all they had to do was make planes have a spawn delay and a very slightly resupply time on bombers while leaving everything thing else alone.

    I mainly fly fighters and the nerf ammo count on both factions to its mgs is petty brutal. Like some have pointed out, a fighter has to burst fire alot more now yet bombers can soak up shots while defending itsself with unlimited ammo tail guns. Kinda wrecked air vs ground combat in favor of infantry.
    Post edited by Rogue-Mike on
  • DominicO65
    516 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    +1 from me
  • m1k3ol
    876 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Moderator
    edited December 2018
    TheSacar wrote: »
    Shouldn't the gunner position be for defense rather than offense?

    at least not in the Blenheim...

    most of the options for it is gun positions and upgrades, there's not the same assortment of bombs like the Ju88, so yeah, guns are meant for offensive...
  • TheSacar
    1005 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    m1k3ol wrote: »
    TheSacar wrote: »
    Shouldn't the gunner position be for defense rather than offense?

    at least not in the Blenheim...

    most of the options for it is gun positions and upgrades, there's not the same assortment of bombs like the Ju88, so yeah, guns are meant for offensive...

    Well, that should really not be the case. Bombers in this game are already too much of plane hunters with their forward facing MGs.
  • SovereignGS
    29 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    TheSacar wrote: »
    m1k3ol wrote: »
    TheSacar wrote: »
    Shouldn't the gunner position be for defense rather than offense?

    at least not in the Blenheim...

    most of the options for it is gun positions and upgrades, there's not the same assortment of bombs like the Ju88, so yeah, guns are meant for offensive...

    Well, that should really not be the case. Bombers in this game are already too much of plane hunters with their forward facing MGs.

    I see the blenheim more as an attack plane from BF1, as it lacks the bombing power of the JU-88 and the frontal fire power of the fighter. It's a hybrid of sorts because the brits (in this game) don't have a dedicated bomber.
  • jaggafeen
    21 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    AA is ridiculously OP totally ruined the game
  • MBTV-WrecknBall
    2 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    All they literally needed to do was just add a small timer to the bombs, which they did, and that was it! Not **** touch everything else with their **** covered fingers
  • Kr0yan
    3 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Please DICE, please don't let THIS be the direction planes are taking. My friends whom never had any interest in flying in Battlefield are finally getting into it here, and this update has ruined it for them, and for me. This is, to pilots at least, a really pressing issue that NEEDS to be fixed quickly, not in the next major update.

    A plea, from a pilot.

    Great post sonic, I came here to have a rant of my own but glad to see such a measured and constructive post. Nothing really to add apart from a little reminiscing about the AMAZING aerial game the original 1942 game had and how I'd hoped (thus far in vain) BF V could have drawn on...

    What I miss most about BF1942 is the dog fighting. By comparison BF V feels claustrophobic, the flight ceiling is ridiculously low, you're exposed to an almost incessant barrage of angry AA fire and small arms fire which makes seeing though a good dogfight almost impossible. Without waffling on too much I'll bullet point what I loved about the original:
    • You had a huge amount of airspace to fly around in, away from pesky AA and ground fire.
    • AA and ground fire was effective at stopping you attacking ground forces, for the most part you could veer away from the main action and have a good dogfight.
    • Altitude and potential energy really mattered. If you got stuck at low speed/low altitude you were done for if there was another good pilot on the other team.
    • No in flight repairs, you had to play as engineer and land somewhere to repair. The immense maps allowed you to do this reasonably easily.
    • AA's had a weak spot. They couldn't quite look up 90º which meant there was a small cone above them where they couldn't get you. This was all a skilled pilot needed to get rid of angry AA trolls who pitched up with their picnic baskets and sandwiches, determined to sit on the AA for the duration out of spite for having been shot down.
    • 5 different fighters available from all factions handled differently but were balanced if flown making the most of their strengths.
    • Each fighter had only 1 bomb available. The bomb descent arc was different for each one so you had to get a feel for how they dropped. Splash damage was weak but a bullseye on any light tank was a 1 shot kill as was a carefully placed bomb on the rear of a heavy tank. This wasn't easy and required some measure of skill.
    • Spitfire/BF109 - The spit could out turn the 109 but couldn't climb as well. The 109 had to make sure he kept higher/faster than the spit in order to compete. Low speed /low altitude the spit would have him.
    • P51/BF109 - Again the 109 really needed to make the most of its superior climb rate. The P51 was probably the best all round fighter but still lost out to the 109 when it came to climbing.
    • Zero/Corsair - The Zero handled like a dream and was probably my personal fav, the corsair was very temperamental and acted very strangely at low speeds but despite this was still a match for the zero in the hands of a good pilot.
    • The different camera views included cockpit view / cockpit view without the instrument panel / rear 3rd person view and flyby view. You could cycle though these by hitting C. Face value that sounds overpowered but if you knew how to use these camera views in combination with cockpit free look it made dogfighting an amazingly enjoyable experience, you could try all sorts of aerobatic moves to position yourself behind your enemy as you had a good idea where he was. In BF1/BFV dogfighting consists mostly of going round in circles until one of you gets bored or the other pilot is gullible enough to overshoot you if you hit the brakes.
    • The radio communication system meant you could communicate with other pilots without voice comms using a combination of F keys. Things like "requesting support", "enemy aircraft spotted" etc
    • Radio comms were important as the game had limited visibility. Aircraft wouldn't be visible across the map so there was a fair bit of flying around at high altitude looking for your opponents, particularly if you knew there was a good pilot on the other team. This seemed to keep the air/ground balance in a good place as planes were often too busy hunting each other down at high altitude.

    I could go on but i think I've covered the main highlights, thanks for reading!
  • Kr0yan
    3 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2018
    *deleted repeat post*
    Post edited by Kr0yan on
  • Frindly-Fire-4
    407 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    agree thy have destroyed the plane game play and reworded the AA campers ... camp an AA and shoot across the map ... no spot so pilots can`t c u and cant touch u .
  • SirBobdk
    5379 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    agree thy have destroyed the plane game play and reworded the AA campers ... camp an AA and shoot across the map ... no spot so pilots can`t c u and cant touch u .
    Hi Frindly, nice to see you :smile:
    Agree.
    This is usually how DICE solves problems. Instead of just solving the primary problem, they create another and even more.
    The AA needed a small buff against bombers, but not like this and for sure not the MAA.
    Tweak of the Spitfire + JU88 + delay in start + 15 sec delay in bombs would have been enough. The rest was unnecessary.
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