The Plane Adjustments have BROKEN flying in BFV, and it has little to do with Bombers.

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  • rudolfreal
    35 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2018
    as someone else said better than me:
    "AA got super buffed. there's no recourse against AA for pilots. Especially on maps like Arras where they can literally shoot the entire map from their safe zone and your ground can't help you at all. The rocket pods were the fighter's only chance at taking out flak panzer and now it's useless.

    I've tried playing with my friends and they'll try to help take out AA as they're playing inf and tanks but the AA are in spawn and they can't help. If AA are going to be allowed to fire from safety of inf and tanks, then air need tools to be able to take them out."

    on maps like Arras AA just deletes aircrafts now and they can't even do anything. i completely agree with the bomber nerfs, but fighters (and their ground tools) should've been untouched. dropping 2x500 bombs on a tank and all i get is half damage. AA is untouchable and deletes you in any plane.

    airplanes were turned into rubbish and they're super boring to play now (and unplayable on Arras if one enemy is camping flaks.)

    edit: seriously, look at this https://www.reddit.com/r/BattlefieldV/comments/a3mszv/the_current_status_of_the_stukab2_with_37mm/

    it's a complete joke. he does 80 damage after several shots on target. if the enemy had an AA on the map he would be 100% dead so he could deal 1/4th damage to a tank.

    You do know what AA means right? Do you think AA should work like pre-patch? Any plane can charge towards it and destroy it with one set of bombs/rockets?

    Fly low, Fly high and Fly away from AA if you want to survive as pilot! Just like infantry should not fight a tank without cover or flank, as a pilot, you should scare AA!

    I don't play pilot so I don't know about fighter vs bomber but if fighter is weak atm, DICE will buff its ability against other planes. But I am very happy with AA vs planes now. I have seen good pilot always hide far away from AA guns so it is harder for you to hit them. I also see noob pilots try to challenge an AA tank by fly towards me (which works pre-patch).
  • SirBobdk
    5379 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    @rudolfreal wrote
    You do know what AA means right? Do you think AA should work like pre-patch? Any plane can charge towards it and destroy it with one set of bombs/rockets?
    No it shouldn't be like pre-patch but it also shouldn't be like now. AA was fine against fighters but needed a small buff against bombers. They overdid it and now we have spawn AA/MAA campers who can cover half the map and even more on some maps. That not balance, that's just an easy way to destroy air instead of making air more skill full.
  • TheSacar
    1005 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    rudolfreal wrote: »
    Fly low, Fly high and Fly away from AA if you want to survive as pilot! Just like infantry should not fight a tank without cover or flank, as a pilot, you should scare AA!

    Right. Fly around in circles far away from everything, because the AA - especially the AA tank - can basically reach everywhere without moving much. One guy can hop in an infantry shredding AA tank and shut down nearly the entire airspace while racking up kills on infantry. Meanwhile planes circle just shy of the red zone doing absolutely nothing meaningful. That seems like good balance.
  • Tony-yingc
    82 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    1.Pilots with better skills can grasp the air superiority, but if someone uses SAA or MAA, they can effectively protect infantry within a certain range.
    2.How to avoid the bomber's backseat machine gun, I think it is a basic skill, Backseat machine need a little bit nelf ,Give flesh pilots some confidence.

    Now the problem is all planes can't support the ground effectively. why we need air superiority, and if u are pilots u will know that is hard to finds target in battlefield V. and even u find the targets u can't do any thing because u are reloading or busy in hide AA. and even more u catch a attack windows u drop the booms or shot rockets, after a fell seconds u got 30 damages.wtf?the infantry is iron man? ok~ u get that kill,because even u are iron man,500KG booms still can hurt his plate armour,that is fxxking 500KG boom! after that iron man player pick MAA or SAA sick of you for the whole game.
  • Tony-yingc
    82 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Kr0yan wrote: »
    Please DICE, please don't let THIS be the direction planes are taking. My friends whom never had any interest in flying in Battlefield are finally getting into it here, and this update has ruined it for them, and for me. This is, to pilots at least, a really pressing issue that NEEDS to be fixed quickly, not in the next major update.

    A plea, from a pilot.

    Great post sonic, I came here to have a rant of my own but glad to see such a measured and constructive post. Nothing really to add apart from a little reminiscing about the AMAZING aerial game the original 1942 game had and how I'd hoped (thus far in vain) BF V could have drawn on...

    What I miss most about BF1942 is the dog fighting. By comparison BF V feels claustrophobic, the flight ceiling is ridiculously low, you're exposed to an almost incessant barrage of angry AA fire and small arms fire which makes seeing though a good dogfight almost impossible. Without waffling on too much I'll bullet point what I loved about the original:
    • You had a huge amount of airspace to fly around in, away from pesky AA and ground fire.
    • AA and ground fire was effective at stopping you attacking ground forces, for the most part you could veer away from the main action and have a good dogfight.
    • Altitude and potential energy really mattered. If you got stuck at low speed/low altitude you were done for if there was another good pilot on the other team.
    • No in flight repairs, you had to play as engineer and land somewhere to repair. The immense maps allowed you to do this reasonably easily.
    • AA's had a weak spot. They couldn't quite look up 90º which meant there was a small cone above them where they couldn't get you. This was all a skilled pilot needed to get rid of angry AA trolls who pitched up with their picnic baskets and sandwiches, determined to sit on the AA for the duration out of spite for having been shot down.
    • 5 different fighters available from all factions handled differently but were balanced if flown making the most of their strengths.
    • Each fighter had only 1 bomb available. The bomb descent arc was different for each one so you had to get a feel for how they dropped. Splash damage was weak but a bullseye on any light tank was a 1 shot kill as was a carefully placed bomb on the rear of a heavy tank. This wasn't easy and required some measure of skill.
    • Spitfire/BF109 - The spit could out turn the 109 but couldn't climb as well. The 109 had to make sure he kept higher/faster than the spit in order to compete. Low speed /low altitude the spit would have him.
    • P51/BF109 - Again the 109 really needed to make the most of its superior climb rate. The P51 was probably the best all round fighter but still lost out to the 109 when it came to climbing.
    • Zero/Corsair - The Zero handled like a dream and was probably my personal fav, the corsair was very temperamental and acted very strangely at low speeds but despite this was still a match for the zero in the hands of a good pilot.
    • The different camera views included cockpit view / cockpit view without the instrument panel / rear 3rd person view and flyby view. You could cycle though these by hitting C. Face value that sounds overpowered but if you knew how to use these camera views in combination with cockpit free look it made dogfighting an amazingly enjoyable experience, you could try all sorts of aerobatic moves to position yourself behind your enemy as you had a good idea where he was. In BF1/BFV dogfighting consists mostly of going round in circles until one of you gets bored or the other pilot is gullible enough to overshoot you if you hit the brakes.
    • The radio communication system meant you could communicate with other pilots without voice comms using a combination of F keys. Things like "requesting support", "enemy aircraft spotted" etc
    • Radio comms were important as the game had limited visibility. Aircraft wouldn't be visible across the map so there was a fair bit of flying around at high altitude looking for your opponents, particularly if you knew there was a good pilot on the other team. This seemed to keep the air/ground balance in a good place as planes were often too busy hunting each other down at high altitude.

    I could go on but i think I've covered the main highlights, thanks for reading!

    Want energy air combat? Remove the third perspective makes air combat more interesting and difficult. I think if tank drivers also remove the third-person perspective, the whole game will become more interesting.
  • SirBobdk
    5379 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Tony-yingc wrote: »
    Kr0yan wrote: »
    Please DICE, please don't let THIS be the direction planes are taking. My friends whom never had any interest in flying in Battlefield are finally getting into it here, and this update has ruined it for them, and for me. This is, to pilots at least, a really pressing issue that NEEDS to be fixed quickly, not in the next major update.

    A plea, from a pilot.

    Great post sonic, I came here to have a rant of my own but glad to see such a measured and constructive post. Nothing really to add apart from a little reminiscing about the AMAZING aerial game the original 1942 game had and how I'd hoped (thus far in vain) BF V could have drawn on...

    What I miss most about BF1942 is the dog fighting. By comparison BF V feels claustrophobic, the flight ceiling is ridiculously low, you're exposed to an almost incessant barrage of angry AA fire and small arms fire which makes seeing though a good dogfight almost impossible. Without waffling on too much I'll bullet point what I loved about the original:
    • You had a huge amount of airspace to fly around in, away from pesky AA and ground fire.
    • AA and ground fire was effective at stopping you attacking ground forces, for the most part you could veer away from the main action and have a good dogfight.
    • Altitude and potential energy really mattered. If you got stuck at low speed/low altitude you were done for if there was another good pilot on the other team.
    • No in flight repairs, you had to play as engineer and land somewhere to repair. The immense maps allowed you to do this reasonably easily.
    • AA's had a weak spot. They couldn't quite look up 90º which meant there was a small cone above them where they couldn't get you. This was all a skilled pilot needed to get rid of angry AA trolls who pitched up with their picnic baskets and sandwiches, determined to sit on the AA for the duration out of spite for having been shot down.
    • 5 different fighters available from all factions handled differently but were balanced if flown making the most of their strengths.
    • Each fighter had only 1 bomb available. The bomb descent arc was different for each one so you had to get a feel for how they dropped. Splash damage was weak but a bullseye on any light tank was a 1 shot kill as was a carefully placed bomb on the rear of a heavy tank. This wasn't easy and required some measure of skill.
    • Spitfire/BF109 - The spit could out turn the 109 but couldn't climb as well. The 109 had to make sure he kept higher/faster than the spit in order to compete. Low speed /low altitude the spit would have him.
    • P51/BF109 - Again the 109 really needed to make the most of its superior climb rate. The P51 was probably the best all round fighter but still lost out to the 109 when it came to climbing.
    • Zero/Corsair - The Zero handled like a dream and was probably my personal fav, the corsair was very temperamental and acted very strangely at low speeds but despite this was still a match for the zero in the hands of a good pilot.
    • The different camera views included cockpit view / cockpit view without the instrument panel / rear 3rd person view and flyby view. You could cycle though these by hitting C. Face value that sounds overpowered but if you knew how to use these camera views in combination with cockpit free look it made dogfighting an amazingly enjoyable experience, you could try all sorts of aerobatic moves to position yourself behind your enemy as you had a good idea where he was. In BF1/BFV dogfighting consists mostly of going round in circles until one of you gets bored or the other pilot is gullible enough to overshoot you if you hit the brakes.
    • The radio communication system meant you could communicate with other pilots without voice comms using a combination of F keys. Things like "requesting support", "enemy aircraft spotted" etc
    • Radio comms were important as the game had limited visibility. Aircraft wouldn't be visible across the map so there was a fair bit of flying around at high altitude looking for your opponents, particularly if you knew there was a good pilot on the other team. This seemed to keep the air/ground balance in a good place as planes were often too busy hunting each other down at high altitude.

    I could go on but i think I've covered the main highlights, thanks for reading!

    Want energy air combat? Remove the third perspective makes air combat more interesting and difficult. I think if tank drivers also remove the third-person perspective, the whole game will become more interesting.
    This
  • ACS_SB4lifeNL
    20 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    m1k3ol wrote: »
    TheSacar wrote: »
    Shouldn't the gunner position be for defense rather than offense?

    at least not in the Blenheim...

    most of the options for it is gun positions and upgrades, there's not the same assortment of bombs like the Ju88, so yeah, guns are meant for offensive...

    Haha the blenheim let's talk about that, how come the blenheim still can't have team mates spawn on you as gunner even though it has better upgrades for co-pilot wtf! And ju-88 rocking 2 gunners all the time! The allied forces have no planes with multiple seats to spawn on ridicioulous, so if i want my gunner in blenheim i need to land or pass over a flat area to let my gunner hop in what the actuall ****?
  • rudolfreal
    35 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    TheSacar wrote: »
    rudolfreal wrote: »
    Fly low, Fly high and Fly away from AA if you want to survive as pilot! Just like infantry should not fight a tank without cover or flank, as a pilot, you should scare AA!

    Right. Fly around in circles far away from everything, because the AA - especially the AA tank - can basically reach everywhere without moving much. One guy can hop in an infantry shredding AA tank and shut down nearly the entire airspace while racking up kills on infantry. Meanwhile planes circle just shy of the red zone doing absolutely nothing meaningful. That seems like good balance.

    The bullet speed from AA tank is slow, so if you are half map away from it, you should have no problem at all, maybe take 1 or 2 hits before it's gun got overheat.

    If the AA tank moves forward, then it's your tank/infantry job to take it down. And on most maps, tank spot is limited to less than 3 so every count is valuable.

    Also, AA tank shooting will be blocked by any type of tree. So instead of fly too high to expose yourself, try to fly a bit low so that the AA tank won't have clear line of sight to shoot.

    Pilot is harder than before, maybe DICE nerf the ammo/bomb count too many (cut by 50% is a bit too much, maybe 33% is better). Just fly smarter. Thinking that at least, they don't have auto-tracking AA rocket launcher in WWII. :wink:
  • TheSacar
    1005 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    rudolfreal wrote: »

    The bullet speed from AA tank is slow, so if you are half map away from it, you should have no problem at all, maybe take 1 or 2 hits before it's gun got overheat.

    They are really not that slow, especially not on the German Flakpanzer. And not having to be half a map away was sort of my point. If I take one or two hits half a map away that is still too much. The AA tank needs a range reduction.
    rudolfreal wrote: »

    If the AA tank moves forward, then it's your tank/infantry job to take it down. And on most maps, tank spot is limited to less than 3 so every count is valuable.

    But that's the thing. With the range the tank has. It doesn't even need to move on some maps. It can just stay in the uncap, where it can at best be attacked by a kamikaze bomb run, but certainly not by tanks/infantry. Other maps are so open, that no infantry will get close enough to the tank without getting shred by it first.
    rudolfreal wrote: »



    Also, AA tank shooting will be blocked by any type of tree. So instead of fly too high to expose yourself, try to fly a bit low so that the AA tank won't have clear line of sight to shoot.

    Flying so low that you can use trees as cover may work, but that also means that you can't do anything at all except fly. You need a better angle to strafe and more distance to bomb without killing yourself. So in effect you are still being denied half the map's airspace. Your suggestions, while not untrue, are not really helpful.
    rudolfreal wrote: »


    Pilot is harder than before, maybe DICE nerf the ammo/bomb count too many (cut by 50% is a bit too much, maybe 33% is better). Just fly smarter. Thinking that at least, they don't have auto-tracking AA rocket launcher in WWII. :wink:


    "Just fly smarter." Hm. I wonder, how much have you actually flown in BF5? Because your post doesn't seem like you have too much experience being on the receiving end of an AA tank - especially an upgraded AA tank. Those things can kill a fighter in under a second with proper aim. No time to get out or even react. Most of the times you'll feel very lucky if you escape at all.
  • rudolfreal
    35 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2018
    "Just fly smarter." Hm. I wonder, how much have you actually flown in BF5? Because your post doesn't seem like you have too much experience being on the receiving end of an AA tank - especially an upgraded AA tank. Those things can kill a fighter in under a second with proper aim. No time to get out or even react. Most of the times you'll feel very lucky if you escape at all.

    I don't fly... I only shoot planes, pre-patch or post-patch and I can feel the improvement on the ground units against air.

    Pre-patch: You don't need a brain, you just charge whatever is shooting you and drop the bomb, shoot the rockets. If nothing is shooting you, feel free to get dozens of kills on those helpless infantries. Do you know how many times I got bombed out of a ground AA gun when trying to shoot a plane fly towards me?

    Post-patch: You need fly smarter, you need to know what is damaging you and how to avoid it. If you can deal with the AA tank, then your enemy team lose a tank spot for a tiger/churcill to help their infantry push the target.

    As a pilot, you are suppose to be challenged by AA units. Do you know how many maps I saw pre-patch that both sides have all bombers that just fly around and enjoy killing infantry? It is a ruin of the game experience. At least now I know I can protect my ground units by using AA units.
  • Sonicjohnbh
    14 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    rudolfreal wrote: »
    "Just fly smarter." Hm. I wonder, how much have you actually flown in BF5? Because your post doesn't seem like you have too much experience being on the receiving end of an AA tank - especially an upgraded AA tank. Those things can kill a fighter in under a second with proper aim. No time to get out or even react. Most of the times you'll feel very lucky if you escape at all.

    I don't fly... I only shoot planes, pre-patch or post-patch and I can feel the improvement on the ground units against air.

    Pre-patch: You don't need a brain, you just charge whatever is shooting you and drop the bomb, shoot the rockets. If nothing is shooting you, feel free to get dozens of kills on those helpless infantries. Do you know how many times I got bombed out of a ground AA gun when trying to shoot a plane fly towards me?

    Post-patch: You need fly smarter, you need to know what is damaging you and how to avoid it. If you can deal with the AA tank, then your enemy team lose a tank spot for a tiger/churcill to help their infantry push the target.

    As a pilot, you are suppose to be challenged by AA units. Do you know how many maps I saw pre-patch that both sides have all bombers that just fly around and enjoy killing infantry? It is a ruin of the game experience. At least now I know I can protect my ground units by using AA units.

    I'd like to see anyone who was a TERRIBLE pilot unlock the rockets for fighters, short of SHEER determination and facing only idiot enemies.

    Obviously AA was buffed, because literally everything on the planes was nerfed. Complaining about "do you know how many times I've been bombed out of an AA gun" is like complaining that you get sniped by the same sniper every time you go to the exact same corner. MOVE THE GUN FFS. AA smarter. Even easier don't shoot until they CAN'T bomb you, it's a VERY simple thing.

    Never tell anyone to do something "smarter" when you have zero experience with it and they have literally hundreds of hours in it.

    Blame your team if all you've got is bombers on both sides. Bombers are meant to be destroyed by two things: FIGHTERS, and MULTIPLE flak guns. When the Allies were flying hundreds of planes in formation they weren't afraid of one single solitary flak gun at a target, they were afraid of a dozen of them. Pre-patch it was EASY to take out a bomber, all you needed was literally just MORE THAN ONE flak gun. That's what teamwork is for. Chances are if the enemy team has air superiority, it's because there is at least a squad dedicated to it, or your team isn't doing anything at all to counter it. When there is a tank running around destroying people, you get assaults, squishy suiciding assaults to group up and kill it because it's a THREAT and is having a big effect on the match. You don't COMPLAIN about ONE person's efforts not being enough to overcome the tanker, his gunners, and the person(s) repairing him. If a bomber is DECIMATING your team (throughout the match, not just at the start), then you should have MULTIPLE people trying to take it out. 2 AA guns, even better 3 AA guns, dead bomber, EASY. It makes ZERO SENSE to ask that a single super-soldier out of THIRTY TWO should be allowed to have the advantage over three or more players efforts just because no-one else on the team is making an effort. That's how games work, if you don't do the work, the plane doesn't get shot down, same as if you don't play the objective, ignore the tank, or just hope someone else will deal with that one machinegun.

    Case in point: many of the real pilots (not the guys hopping on for free kills at the start of a match with their Junkers) have changed tactics since the patch. Ammo is life, Bombs are worthless (unless you have 3 different loads of them). The Waffenbehalter on the Junkers is now my weapon of choice (which is ironic because prior to the patch I never used the Junkers past the one round it took to level it to full), lo and behold I can use the machineguns to kill the flak-gunner before he can kill me. I top the leaderboard, in a bomber WITHOUT ANY BOMBS. I kill the same flak gunner multiple times, he hops in a fighter, I shoot him down, hops in a bomber (because fighters are useless right now) I shoot him down. Some MIRACULOUS evolution happens and he gets one of his buddys to hop in a SECOND Flak gun. He lures me with his, only to have his buddy open up on me, I die because two flak guns. It's AMAZING isn't it? That the effort of MULTIPLE people works against MULTIPLE OTHER PEOPLE rather than ONE person.

    It's baffling to me that this math checks out for the average infantry troop on EVERY OTHER matchup EXCEPT for planes. People didn't complain about one soldier not being able to take out the armored train in 1 BY THEMSELVES, why the heck are they doing it here? It's a threat, in a team based game, come up with a team based solution.

    Don't just complain about it and scare the developers into DEMOLISHING a large portion of the game in a reactionary measure. You know what's sadder than seeing 3v3 bombers bombing infantry? Watching 3v3 bombers dogfighting because the fighters DON'T HAVE ENOUGH AMMO TO SHOOT THEM DOWN. I've seen more bombers shotdown by CARPETBOMBS MIDAIR in the past few days than by actual fighters.

    That is NOT a good state for flying in this game.
  • TheSacar
    1005 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    rudolfreal wrote: »
    "Just fly smarter." Hm. I wonder, how much have you actually flown in BF5? Because your post doesn't seem like you have too much experience being on the receiving end of an AA tank - especially an upgraded AA tank. Those things can kill a fighter in under a second with proper aim. No time to get out or even react. Most of the times you'll feel very lucky if you escape at all.

    I don't fly... I only shoot planes, pre-patch or post-patch and I can feel the improvement on the ground units against air.

    Pre-patch: You don't need a brain, you just charge whatever is shooting you and drop the bomb, shoot the rockets. If nothing is shooting you, feel free to get dozens of kills on those helpless infantries. Do you know how many times I got bombed out of a ground AA gun when trying to shoot a plane fly towards me?

    Post-patch: You need fly smarter, you need to know what is damaging you and how to avoid it. If you can deal with the AA tank, then your enemy team lose a tank spot for a tiger/churcill to help their infantry push the target.

    As a pilot, you are suppose to be challenged by AA units. Do you know how many maps I saw pre-patch that both sides have all bombers that just fly around and enjoy killing infantry? It is a ruin of the game experience. At least now I know I can protect my ground units by using AA units.

    Thank you for your advice on how to fly smarter, which I will take with a pinch of salt. I am a mediorce pilot and there certainly are many I can still learn from. But I do have some 70 hours of flying experience in BF5 alone and I would venture that I have at least a slight clue what I am doing when flying. It gives you an odd feeling to your stomach when you are being told to fly smart by someone who doesn't fly.
    .
    As mentioned before, I have no problem with being challenged by AA, stationary or mobile. What I do have a problem with is the range of AA, especially the mobile one, and the fact that people can camp in an area wholly inaccessible to the enemy team (except from the air) and have such an impact on the game. In my opinion, no one should be able to impact the game while hiding in an uncap.
    .
    And the thing is, I mostly fly fighters. I can't stand the bombers, too slow for my taste. Unfortunately, since the patch, fighters feel very disconnected from the game. As a fighter pilot you can do OK with say a 25:0 by shooting down most enemy planes and killing an occasional infantry. But you really do not have much of an impact on the game. Whether or not you shoot down enemy fighters has very little influence on how well your team can take flags. And killing one or two enemy soldiers at a flag doesn't really help that much either. Fighters should be anti air specialists first, but imho they should also be capable of attacking ground troops to a certain extent.
    .
    To explain how flying a fighter feels right now to people who don't fly: Imagine you are in a tank and your number one purpose is killing enemy tanks. Your pretty good at that and you manage to kill all enemy tanks. But then that's it. In this imaginary tank you cannot drive up to a flag to capture it and killing infantry is so hard, you almost never manage to do it. So you end up just sitting there, killing the occasional tank and waiting for a group of assaults to come and kill you. At the end of the round you have a bunch of kills, but you haven't really helped your team. And what's more, if you imagine that both teams didn't have any tanks at all, you realize the match would have basically ended the same way. You simply did not play a role in the game.
    .
    This is what flying fighters feels right now. Except maybe for first rate pilots, which I certainly am not.
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