Hidden in plain sight: Showcasing prone "invisibility"

Comments

  • Hawxxeye
    7952 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    I never expected that this would end up almost becoming a series of a sort.
    It seems that using an MMG causes these situations to happen more often.
    This time one of the guys killed was also amused at how long it took for his team to finally slay his killer next to his body.
    Another guy maining assault seemed to be really salty about MMGs for some reason though (not in the video)

  • SirTerrible
    1713 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    I never expected that this would end up almost becoming a series of a sort.
    It seems that using an MMG causes these situations to happen more often.
    This time one of the guys killed was also amused at how long it took for his team to finally slay his killer next to his body.
    Another guy maining assault seemed to be really salty about MMGs for some reason though (not in the video)

    Lol best part is once the bodies started piling up it got even more impossible to see you since you'd just look like another corpse.
  • Sammy_SUN1
    53 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Loqtrall wrote: »
    I think people are completely unaware of there surroundings

    This is my feeling about it as well.

    As far as the video is concerned, anyone using thier brain could have known where all thier teammates were being killed from by listening for gunfire and looking at tracers.

    It's not as if the guy was actually invisible. His outfit contrasted his surroundings blatantly. The issue is everyone who entered the objective zone did so in a straight line seemingly with blinders on, completely ignoring tracers whizzing past thier head and killing teammates right beside them. In the entirety of the video only one enemy even looked in OP's direction, and it was the guy who killed him. Even that guy didn't initially look at him, even when he was shooting tracers right by his head.

    Imo there's a difference between actually being invisible, and enemies just blatantly walking right past you without even looking around.

    Also, the guy behind the flag pole who killed OP was pretty much visible the entire time. From the time he walked right in front of OP and proned behind the sandbags, to the time he flipped over, looked at OP, and killed him.

    Let me remind you this is not chess :) To look at everything and think 2 minutes what to do. What you say is theory. In the game that does not happen. I am not sayin' everyone should just run straight, no. But what you are talking about is a nice story.
  • OldSkoolzFinest
    471 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    alienstout wrote: »
    Sixclicks wrote: »
    This is why we need limb penetration. We also need better meshes around objects so that my first shot wouldn't have been blocked by an invisible wall.

    This is why they need to get rid of bipod usage when lying on your back. There is that bipod, ****?

    They announced yesterday they will be working on no bipod while on the back sometime soon.
  • crixus82
    134 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    I'm not sure if I see that as a problem, there are hints like bullets flying and the noise of the gun, positions of dead allies. Also the killcam or directional damage notifications tend to tell you which direction you got shot from. So if you die you can come back and actively search for them to minimise damage.
    Also I'm personally hopeless with mmg's and get about 2 to 3 moments like that in a game which brings me into line with everyone else kill wise if i'm lucky. MMG's might be a bit too restrictive if you're really easy to spot. If it was happening to loads of people on a regular basis or like all game then I'd change my mind, but I haven't seen that yet.
    Except that there is no real kill cam
  • DingoKillr
    4356 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    alienstout wrote: »
    Sixclicks wrote: »
    This is why we need limb penetration. We also need better meshes around objects so that my first shot wouldn't have been blocked by an invisible wall.

    This is why they need to get rid of bipod usage when lying on your back. There is that bipod, ****?

    They announced yesterday they will be working on no bipod while on the back sometime soon.
    No, that is not what was said. When words like "very like" or "considering" that more likely means that it has not been approved to change but they are looking to see if it is doable.
  • Psycomad
    70 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Run and gun players, if you hear gun fire and look at your radar and see no bluedots, its the enemy.
    What are you people expecting?, a big white skyrim waypoint arrow above enemys heads?
  • Hawxxeye
    7952 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited January 2019
    Psycomad wrote: »
    Run and gun players, if you hear gun fire and look at your radar and see no bluedots, its the enemy.
    What are you people expecting?, a big white skyrim waypoint arrow above enemys heads?
    To be able to instantly tell it is an enemy player and not terrain textures when we look at them
  • Loqtrall
    12468 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited January 2019
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    Psycomad wrote: »
    Run and gun players, if you hear gun fire and look at your radar and see no bluedots, its the enemy.
    What are you people expecting?, a big white skyrim waypoint arrow above enemys heads?
    To be able to instantly tell it is an enemy player and not terrain textures when we look at them

    That's asking a bit much when everyone wants to achieve that in a passing glance at the enemy's location.

    I can understand wanting better visibility in places where it's actually needed, but being able to descern an enemy from thier surroundings or backdrop at a single passing glance, when they're actually trying to conceal themselves would be detrimental to gameplay imo. There are a myriad screenshots posted as evidence of poor visibility that showcase some guy headglitching or proning in rocks or shrubs etc, obviously TRYING to conceal themselves, and claims are made that they're hard to see. Concealment as a whole does not need to disappear in this game. It's not all about running violently out in the open and having face to face 1v1 gunfights.

    I just don't want people advocating for changes that would essentially be like putting a disco ball on anyone trying to conceal themselves. I already notice, say, snipers camping in trees on ridges on Narvik - in saying that, when these changes come to visibility, my only fear is that players are now so easy to see and set apart from the environment that a guy sitting in a big bush 200m away will be easily noticeable, which he shouldn't be, rendering stealth gameplay and concealment completely pointless.

    Thermals had a similar effect in BF4, and rendered any sort of hiding or concealment outdoors pointless because no matter what FLIR made you light up like a Christmas tree.
  • Vycinas2
    932 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Loqtrall wrote: »
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    Psycomad wrote: »
    Run and gun players, if you hear gun fire and look at your radar and see no bluedots, its the enemy.
    What are you people expecting?, a big white skyrim waypoint arrow above enemys heads?
    To be able to instantly tell it is an enemy player and not terrain textures when we look at them

    That's asking a bit much when everyone wants to achieve that in a passing glance at the enemy's location.

    I can understand wanting better visibility in places where it's actually needed, but being able to descern an enemy from thier surroundings or backdrop at a single passing glance, when they're actually trying to conceal themselves would be detrimental to gameplay imo. There are a myriad screenshots posted as evidence of poor visibility that showcase some guy headglitching or proning in rocks or shrubs etc, obviously TRYING to conceal themselves, and claims are made that they're hard to see. Concealment as a whole does not need to disappear in this game. It's not all about running violently out in the open and having face to face 1v1 gunfights.

    I just don't want people advocating for changes that would essentially be like putting a disco ball on anyone trying to conceal themselves. I already notice, say, snipers camping in trees on ridges on Narvik - in saying that, when these changes come to visibility, my only fear is that players are now so easy to see and set apart from the environment that a guy sitting in a big bush 200m away will be easily noticeable, which he shouldn't be, rendering stealth gameplay and concealment completely pointless.

    Thermals had a similar effect in BF4, and rendered any sort of hiding or concealment outdoors pointless because no matter what FLIR made you light up like a Christmas tree.

    Not if you had DICE LA camo. And I would take BF4's visibility over V any day.
  • Loqtrall
    12468 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Vycinas2 wrote: »
    Loqtrall wrote: »
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    Psycomad wrote: »
    Run and gun players, if you hear gun fire and look at your radar and see no bluedots, its the enemy.
    What are you people expecting?, a big white skyrim waypoint arrow above enemys heads?
    To be able to instantly tell it is an enemy player and not terrain textures when we look at them

    That's asking a bit much when everyone wants to achieve that in a passing glance at the enemy's location.

    I can understand wanting better visibility in places where it's actually needed, but being able to descern an enemy from thier surroundings or backdrop at a single passing glance, when they're actually trying to conceal themselves would be detrimental to gameplay imo. There are a myriad screenshots posted as evidence of poor visibility that showcase some guy headglitching or proning in rocks or shrubs etc, obviously TRYING to conceal themselves, and claims are made that they're hard to see. Concealment as a whole does not need to disappear in this game. It's not all about running violently out in the open and having face to face 1v1 gunfights.

    I just don't want people advocating for changes that would essentially be like putting a disco ball on anyone trying to conceal themselves. I already notice, say, snipers camping in trees on ridges on Narvik - in saying that, when these changes come to visibility, my only fear is that players are now so easy to see and set apart from the environment that a guy sitting in a big bush 200m away will be easily noticeable, which he shouldn't be, rendering stealth gameplay and concealment completely pointless.

    Thermals had a similar effect in BF4, and rendered any sort of hiding or concealment outdoors pointless because no matter what FLIR made you light up like a Christmas tree.

    Not if you had DICE LA camo. And I would take BF4's visibility over V any day.

    Lol yes, if you get the Easter egg camo hidden behind multiple instances of morse code on a dlc map that most people, including myself, didn't try to get - your BODY would not glow in thermals. Too bad your weapon still glows like white lightning.

    And the rest of BF4 doesn't seem to agree with you, everyone and thier mom these days are using thermals on firearms and vehicles. I'd bet if chopper pilots had access to it they'd even use it.
  • Hawxxeye
    7952 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Loqtrall wrote: »
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    Psycomad wrote: »
    Run and gun players, if you hear gun fire and look at your radar and see no bluedots, its the enemy.
    What are you people expecting?, a big white skyrim waypoint arrow above enemys heads?
    To be able to instantly tell it is an enemy player and not terrain textures when we look at them

    That's asking a bit much when everyone wants to achieve that in a passing glance at the enemy's location.

    I can understand wanting better visibility in places where it's actually needed, but being able to descern an enemy from thier surroundings or backdrop at a single passing glance, when they're actually trying to conceal themselves would be detrimental to gameplay imo. There are a myriad screenshots posted as evidence of poor visibility that showcase some guy headglitching or proning in rocks or shrubs etc, obviously TRYING to conceal themselves, and claims are made that they're hard to see. Concealment as a whole does not need to disappear in this game. It's not all about running violently out in the open and having face to face 1v1 gunfights.

    I just don't want people advocating for changes that would essentially be like putting a disco ball on anyone trying to conceal themselves. I already notice, say, snipers camping in trees on ridges on Narvik - in saying that, when these changes come to visibility, my only fear is that players are now so easy to see and set apart from the environment that a guy sitting in a big bush 200m away will be easily noticeable, which he shouldn't be, rendering stealth gameplay and concealment completely pointless.

    Thermals had a similar effect in BF4, and rendered any sort of hiding or concealment outdoors pointless because no matter what FLIR made you light up like a Christmas tree.
    Did it looked like if I was trying to conceal myself in all these videos?
    My problem is that in this game you are concealed by default as long as you are not moving. Sometimes you are concealed even while sprinting thanks to all the overshadowing of the player models in shadowed areas.
  • Loqtrall
    12468 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    Did it looked like if I was trying to conceal myself in all these videos?
    My problem is that in this game you are concealed by default as long as you are not moving. Sometimes you are concealed even while sprinting thanks to all the overshadowing of the player models in shadowed areas.

    No, it looked as if several enemies walked right past you because:

    1) You were behind cover concealing yourself from thier side of the obj

    and

    2) Because nobody even glanced in your direction even though your tracers were flying right past thier faces and thier teammates were dying around them.

    Your video is not a case of visibility issues, it's an example of player ignorance and lack of awareness.

    And I don't get how you can say simply standing still conceals you in this game. Thats far from the truth, I've spotted and killed plenty of stationary enemies. It's not like if you stop in the middle of the road between A and C on Devastation, you're completely invisible and concealed and people will walk right by you. If they do, it's a dumb player issue, not a visibility issue.

    I mean, ffs, I can do the same exact thing you did in your video in a game like CoD. You act as if going prone in a corner or dark area and being concealed is something that has only ever happened in BF5.

    The fact of the matter is there have been complaints about being able to see enemies in damn near every BF game. You can look up "Battlefield 4 can't see enemies" on Google and you'll get dozens of threads from Battlelog. You can do the same for BF1 and find dozens of threads from this very forum. You can even find threads about visibility issues in BF3 that are nearly a decade old. Those are BF games with spammable 3d spotting and people still incessantly complained about not being able to see enemy players.

    It's almost as if people have a hard time seeing regardless of spotting, clutter, etc.

    Which is why I'm so intent on claiming that these visibility "fixes" coming won't alleviate the "issue" for a ton of people unless they make enemies blatantly visible from hundreds of meters away even if they're actively trying to conceal themselves. That mechanic is called spammable 3d spotting.
  • Hawxxeye
    7952 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited January 2019
    Loqtrall wrote: »
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    Did it looked like if I was trying to conceal myself in all these videos?
    My problem is that in this game you are concealed by default as long as you are not moving. Sometimes you are concealed even while sprinting thanks to all the overshadowing of the player models in shadowed areas.

    No, it looked as if several enemies walked right past you because:

    1) You were behind cover concealing yourself from thier side of the obj

    and

    2) Because nobody even glanced in your direction even though your tracers were flying right past thier faces and thier teammates were dying around them.

    Your video is not a case of visibility issues, it's an example of player ignorance and lack of awareness.

    And I don't get how you can say simply standing still conceals you in this game. Thats far from the truth, I've spotted and killed plenty of stationary enemies. It's not like if you stop in the middle of the road between A and C on Devastation, you're completely invisible and concealed and people will walk right by you. If they do, it's a dumb player issue, not a visibility issue.

    I mean, ffs, I can do the same exact thing you did in your video in a game like CoD. You act as if going prone in a corner or dark area and being concealed is something that has only ever happened in BF5.

    The fact of the matter is there have been complaints about being able to see enemies in damn near every BF game. You can look up "Battlefield 4 can't see enemies" on Google and you'll get dozens of threads from Battlelog. You can do the same for BF1 and find dozens of threads from this very forum. You can even find threads about visibility issues in BF3 that are nearly a decade old. Those are BF games with spammable 3d spotting and people still incessantly complained about not being able to see enemy players.

    It's almost as if people have a hard time seeing regardless of spotting, clutter, etc.

    Which is why I'm so intent on claiming that these visibility "fixes" coming won't alleviate the "issue" for a ton of people unless they make enemies blatantly visible from hundreds of meters away even if they're actively trying to conceal themselves. That mechanic is called spammable 3d spotting.
    Then what can be concluded is that the BF3 and later games depended on the spammable 3d spotting to work with all that visual clutter
  • Loqtrall
    12468 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited January 2019
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    Then what can be concluded is that the BF3 and later games depended on the spammable 3d spotting to work with all that visual clutter

    I'm more inclined to believe that the bulk of the playerbase didn't start playing until BC2 or BF3, when the franchise was booming in popularity and made its major move to console territory, and now rely too heavily on the spotting mechanic to do the job thier eyes, ears, and brains should be doing. I believe too many people relied on scanning the horizon, spamming Q/R1/RB, and having the location of anyone remotely sitting in the open at all marked in 3d space with a red triangle. And now that it's gone, those same people don't want to adapt and take things slow, and get upset that thier hyper-aggro playstyle is punished more severely when the game isn't holding thier hand and outlining the exact location of everyone in the area.

    I especially believe this about people who didn't start playing until BF4 or who heavily prefer bf4s gameplay to others, the game with the most aggressive 3d spotting in the franchise and the most blatant 2d auditory minimap spotting. In that game, you could look at the full map and see the exact location of enemies all across the map every single time they shoot. Somebody could be hiding in a bush 650m away and if you look in thier general direction and press the spot button, they're marked with a red icon for everyone on your team.

    IMO 3d spotting is and has always been detrimental to this franchise and the people who play it. Even in games similar to BFs style (large player count, combined arms fps) like H&G, RO, or Planetside don't feature spotting mechanics as extreme as what's been featured in BF games.
  • Hawxxeye
    7952 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Loqtrall wrote: »
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    Then what can be concluded is that the BF3 and later games depended on the spammable 3d spotting to work with all that visual clutter

    I'm more inclined to believe that the bulk of the playerbase didn't start playing until BC2 or BF3, when the franchise was booming in popularity and made its major move to console territory, and now rely too heavily on the spotting mechanic to do the job thier eyes, ears, and brains should be doing. I believe too many people relied on scanning the horizon, spamming Q/R1/RB, and having the location of anyone remotely sitting in the open at all marked in 3d space with a red triangle. And now that it's gone, those same people don't want to adapt and take things slow, and get upset that thier hyper-aggro playstyle is punished more severely when the game isn't holding thier hand and outlining the exact location of everyone in the area.

    I especially believe this about people who didn't start playing until BF4, the game with the most aggressive 3d spotting in the franchise and the most blatant 2d auditory minimap spotting. In that game, you could look at the full map and see the exact location of enemies all across the map every single time they shoot. Somebody could be hiding in a bush 650m away and if you look in thier general direction and press the spot button, they're marked with a red icon for everyone on your team.

    IMO 3d spotting is and has always been detrimental to this franchise and the people who play it. Even in games similar to BFs style (large player count, combined arms fps) like H&G, RO, or Planetside don't feature spotting mechanics as extreme as what's been featured in BF games.
    Do those non-BF games also go "full rtard" so to speak with excessive visual fluff?
  • Loqtrall
    12468 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    Loqtrall wrote: »
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    Then what can be concluded is that the BF3 and later games depended on the spammable 3d spotting to work with all that visual clutter

    I'm more inclined to believe that the bulk of the playerbase didn't start playing until BC2 or BF3, when the franchise was booming in popularity and made its major move to console territory, and now rely too heavily on the spotting mechanic to do the job thier eyes, ears, and brains should be doing. I believe too many people relied on scanning the horizon, spamming Q/R1/RB, and having the location of anyone remotely sitting in the open at all marked in 3d space with a red triangle. And now that it's gone, those same people don't want to adapt and take things slow, and get upset that thier hyper-aggro playstyle is punished more severely when the game isn't holding thier hand and outlining the exact location of everyone in the area.

    I especially believe this about people who didn't start playing until BF4, the game with the most aggressive 3d spotting in the franchise and the most blatant 2d auditory minimap spotting. In that game, you could look at the full map and see the exact location of enemies all across the map every single time they shoot. Somebody could be hiding in a bush 650m away and if you look in thier general direction and press the spot button, they're marked with a red icon for everyone on your team.

    IMO 3d spotting is and has always been detrimental to this franchise and the people who play it. Even in games similar to BFs style (large player count, combined arms fps) like H&G, RO, or Planetside don't feature spotting mechanics as extreme as what's been featured in BF games.
    Do those games also go "full rtard" so to speak with excessive visual fluff?

    Lol yes. Have you never seen a Red Orchestra game? Rising Storm was essentially an entire portion of the game dedicated to fighting in jungles. Rising Storm 2 is the Vietnam War, so you can see where that's going. In that game spotting is manual like BF5, and marks the general location you're aiming at. H&G is also notorious for its tree camping snipers and window campers, as a ton of its maps utilize heavily wooded areas and "towns", and to spot an enemy in that game you have to aim at them for 2-3 seconds, and it still only marks thier last locations. Lol and in that game rifles can be upgraded to OHK to any part of the body up to 120m.

    The one with the least clutter is probably Planetside 2, but that's negated by the fact that it's map is essentially a massive open world woth no actual design or lanes behind it, and people can literally be hiding in foliage 100s of meters in any direction, let alone the fact they have an ability that turns you invisible for a certain amount of time in that game.
  • Loqtrall
    12468 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Just saying, it's gotten to the extent people are saying that a lack of 3d spotting is a "hardcore" option being forced upon the community, despite 3d spotting as it was in the past 3-4 BF games being featured in less BF games than its been absent from.
  • SirTerrible
    1713 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Spotting wouldn't fix the cases where someone in relatively close range blends in perfectly with the environment causing a delay before you notice them, it'd mostly just be helpful for seeing enemies on maps like fjell since you could spam spot in open areas.
    .
    I played BF3 recently and the player glow from that game should be in this. I forgot how easy it was to see people in dark doorways because of the player model lighting (except when the screen is shaking.. which it is 24/7). The game is more fun to me when you can easily instantly see enemies whenever you peek a corner.
  • Hawxxeye
    7952 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited January 2019
    Spotting wouldn't fix the cases where someone in relatively close range blends in perfectly with the environment causing a delay before you notice them, it'd mostly just be helpful for seeing enemies on maps like fjell since you could spam spot in open areas.
    .
    I played BF3 recently and the player glow from that game should be in this. I forgot how easy it was to see people in dark doorways because of the player model lighting (except when the screen is shaking.. which it is 24/7). The game is more fun to me when you can easily instantly see enemies whenever you peek a corner.
    I want to believe that a proper flare fix would help all that.
    .
    Meanwhile shadowed player models seen through shadowed reflex sights are making things only worse
    Post edited by Hawxxeye on
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