It's time for a new look at TTK

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THERAMPAGE_ci0h
142 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member

Now before I start, a few things to have out of the way: I know that any discussion of changing the current TTK will be met with refusal from a large chunk of this community, but I feel that DICE needs to hear a different opinion on it, especially that it's now a taboo topic that isn't allowed to be discussed - despite the fact that it underlies most of the game's design philosophy.


I'm one of the people who have been playing BF since 2008, but myself and many clan mates I know have also almost stopped playing BFV earlier than any other game in the franchise, and the TTK  is one major reason why.


Another thing to get out of the way because I know this will be mentioned at some point, BF3 and 4 didn't have a similar TTK; BFV TTK is the fastest in the series, and yes faster than BF3 by about 40-70 ms on average on paper, and about 100-150 ms in real TTK (because BF3 guns had sway, more spread, more recoil, more damage drop off , the difference becomes more noticeable in the 25-70 meters range). Keep in mind that BF3's maps and the whole game were designated around 32 players tactical mode ( rush ); console player also doesn't had 64 player mode  , which makes a huge difference in how frustrating or fun fast TTK is.


So here it is:


  • Going back to something DICE mentioned in December 2018 when they hastily adjusted the TTK before the holidays; maybe they went about it the wrong way back then, but they tried to do it for the right reasons: BFV is too frustrating for the casuals, and the TTK is the major reason why. I'll stress again that this was a problem in December 2018, 1 month after release, way before content became an issue. Apart from Reddit opinions, there are solid metrics that I'm sure DICE has, that can evaluate player engagement levels with the game (how many unique users in a month, how many login days per user, how many hours/matches per play session, peak player count....etc), and I'm confident that these metrics are down across the board and even dedicated players are playing BFV less on average than previous titles. This is a huge problem as we're noticing now 7 months into the game's lifecycle and DICE has to cut base gamemodes to save the game's population, which has never happened before even with the buggiest launch in the series.


  • The TTD bug is related to the fast TTK and there's no way around it without making the TTK longer. No need for explanation here.


  • Time in Action VS time on Bleedout/Spawn Screen: We have to understand that most players won't be able to articulate why BFV is frustrating, but I think this is also one of the issues. I'd love to see statistics from DICE on the average life span per spawn, as I feel that it's also much shorter than previous titles because of the TTK, which means that most players are spending more time than usual idling at the bleedout/spawn screen, which is boring and frustrating in itself, versus time spent in action.


  • Weapon balance is in a very bad place right now; this is not entirely related to the fast TTK, but it seems it's amplified by it; semi autos and prone MMGs rule them all, there's no diversity in gunfights, there's no curve to learn the weapons because everything is so accurate, so easy to use, and so lethal so no aim tracking or recoil control needed. Basically you just pick a weapon and know everything about it in 1 match; even in BF1 that everyone here hates, you need to spend a dozen hours with a weapon to get the hang of it as most weapons had their own range and playstyle; BFV doesn't have this diversity except for medic's weapons.


  • Laser beam weapons, combined with fast TTK, combined with bad visibility (which is still an issue), have led to the development of a very campy and boring meta; moving around is too risky so most players are stationary, making the gameplay stale and predictable from match to match. One look on BF tracker and you can see that Kills per minute and Score per minute are down across the board, which means that less action is happening across the board, or in other words, less fun stuff, and more camping and waiting. This means that BFV is boring for many of the core players as well. Once you learn that the best way to play is to stay put, pre aim corners, and shoot the idiots trying to move around , the game becomes stale and unsatisfying even when one is on top of the scoreboard. My personal K/D in BFV is higher than both BF1 and BF4, but I have less fun overall playing it.  


  • Adding on the previous point, most games who have a fast TTK have low player count and almost no vehicles; CSGO, R6S, PUBG, Insurgency, are all less than 16 players per match, and have a camping-heavy meta. BF3 that had a similar TTK to BFV, was 32 players. Fast TTK on 64 players means you'll mostly kill and die shooting people in the back before they had time to react, which is again, not fun nor interesting.


  • The vehicle balance is not aligned with the current TTK. This is only tangentially related but it's a pet peeve of mine; as infantry seem super deadly while vehicles are super fragile, tanks need more hits to take out infantry and tanks, while infantry need less hits to take out infantry and tanks, which doesn't make sense nor is fun. If regular guns are very lethal, vehicles should even be more lethal, and not in the sad state they are now.


Overall, I feel that the TTK has been treated by the design team as a mathematical question that required a mathematical answer, but the issue isn't in how many Bullets or ms needed to kill, the issue is is this TTK fun , does it bode well with the rest of the game?

The answers to these in my humble opinion is no, but then again, in the end it's just a game so there's that.

Comments

  • barnesalmighty2
    1479 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    I didn't mind the ttk before, during or after they tried to change it the difference was minimal. I don't really care what they do so long as they don't go to the extremes like bullet sponges or instant death. Admittedly it's fairly close to insta death now with the lag issues but that is another problem entirely.
  • sabootheshaman
    1052 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    @THERAMPAGE_ci0h what platform you on? I have barely seen the TTD bug on PC in the last few months. So I don’t see it as linked. I understand you could though. If you experience it frequently can you post a recent video of it as I don’t think a bug should be a reason to change a gameplay mechanic.

    I’m tipping however you are not as BF3 had 64 players on PC for sure.

    I spend quite a bit of time alive so I don’t see this issue. You also contradict yourself by saying people are dying more but their kills per minute is down across the game. Please. If you’re gonna make stuff up then don’t contradict yourself.

    Now MMGs. I die to these rarely so I just don’t get the hate.

    Actually going through this a second time and it seems like you have conjured up a case with half truths and opinions to push for a higher TTK.

    No thanks.
  • GloriousRepublic
    164 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Were to far in the games life cycle to have it changed now. Dice had the opportunity to change it and they buckled under pressure from the loud vocal minority.
  • sabootheshaman
    1052 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Were to far in the games life cycle to have it changed now. Dice had the opportunity to change it and they buckled under pressure from the loud vocal minority.

    A minority? Please show me the stats to prove this.
  • wiazabi
    483 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    You forget two things of why the ttk in BF V is so fast vs BF 1.

    • Headshot hitbox is larger
    • All weapons have 2x headshot dmg multiplier vs 1.8 in BF 1 ( only Recon slrs are exeption to this rule )
  • sabootheshaman
    1052 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited August 4
    @Trokey66 I didn’t make the claim. That’s not how the worlds works.

    But continue to push out the false arguments. All having a little sook as the world sails by with your staunch refusal to adjust. 🦕 ☄️ 💀
  • GloriousRepublic
    164 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    Were to far in the games life cycle to have it changed now. Dice had the opportunity to change it and they buckled under pressure from the loud vocal minority.

    A minority? Please show me the stats to prove this.

    Or you could disprove it with your own......
    Were to far in the games life cycle to have it changed now. Dice had the opportunity to change it and they buckled under pressure from the loud vocal minority.

    They changed BF1's TTK a year into its life cycle.

    Certainly, the 'hardcire lite' approach is one of the most significant factors in why my group of friends no longer play.

    The game is simply not fun but a TTK shift may help to address that, at least in part.

    I'm am just saying after how badly it blew up on the internet the first time they changed it for BFV I highly doubt Dice is going to touch it again. I do agree with you though. I'm in the same boat. All of my real life friends no longer play the game either and the TTK is one of their top complaints.
  • Gundidrone
    23 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    The TTD together with the fast movement, no spotting and high recoil of some of the guns makes the game a lot harder to play and turns it into a campy tactical game instead of the fun run and gun game it used to be.  
  • VVaxDaddy
    130 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited August 4
    Problem with this game isn't raw ttk, it's effective ttk. The effective ttk is too low, doesn't seem to matter up close or far away you get laser beamed. Players adapt to this and become more stationary which slows the game down. There's also no incentive to close gaps when you can easily kill someone at range.

    In the closer range infantry focused maps the map moves much more fluidly like it did in previous games. Some of this is probably due to map design and small maps being easier to design, but I think much of it is not having to deal with inappropriately low ttk across long distances.
  • barnesalmighty2
    1479 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Were to far in the games life cycle to have it changed now. Dice had the opportunity to change it and they buckled under pressure from the loud vocal minority.

    A minority? Please show me the stats to prove this.

    In fairness you had the few hundred forum posters as opposed to the thousands that just carried on playing. If they didn't complain about it there would be good reason to assume that they either liked the change or simply didn't care. Which firmly puts the forum users in the minority.

    Like I said earlier though the differences were minimal. Had dice had the chance to tune certain weapons to fit the new ttk better it may well have led to a better game overall.
  • sabootheshaman
    1052 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    @barnesalmighty2 you are literally making stuff up out of assumptions.

    You have no data. You lied.
  • VOLBANKER
    967 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    No way will DICE risk anything like that again with so few players BFV already has.
  • bigiain
    267 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    I agree with most of the OP, but making major changes like that at this stage of the life of the game is a bad idea. Players have gone and aren't coming back. Lots of the players that are still playing like this sort of gun play. The camping problem won't be fixed by changing the TTK now, BF players are horrible at adapting to these sort of mid-life changes and will give up or carry on playing as they are.

    DICE need to learn their lesson for next time.
  • barnesalmighty2
    1479 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    @barnesalmighty2 you are literally making stuff up out of assumptions.

    You have no data. You lied.

    Whatever you say. It is a reasonable assumption to make given the circumstances.

  • BaronVonGoon
    6737 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited August 4
    You feel this ttk on PC, it's not as fast on console. They should balance them separately.
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