Weekly Debrief

Fliegerfaust Overpowered - DICE get your balancing straight!

Comments

  • Karnalii
    34 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Leave the Fliegerfaust alone! 
  • JamieCurnock
    616 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    VincentNZ wrote: »
    (Quote)

    Because someone else has already damaged the plane for at least 10 damage. That is why you get all the odd numbers for vehicle hit scores like 64, 37 and whatnot. Say a plane gets hit by an AA for 50 damage, it instant repairs for 33 and is up to 83 health again. He decides to make another pass before fully repairing and you hit it for 90. You get a kill, the score say you hit it for 83 and the thing explodes.I do not know how planes handle it, but if you take part damage your maximum health pool might be lower, that is how it was for tanks at least for a while. So you could not repair beyond X, when your turret got damaged.
    Many players will not spend 5 seconds to complete the last repair cycle for various reasons, they might not even notice it. And with a weapon that deals 90 damage max in a very short instance this will be deadly.

    Looks like you were right, I checked the recording and this is what I got damage wise when I killed the pilot and destroyed the plane in one FF burst....

    Enemy hit +100
    Rudder damaged +20
    Vehicle hit +89

    So I guess he was already at -11% health and I hit him for 89, with 20 of that damage being rudder damage. That seem about right?
  • VincentNZ
    3195 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    VincentNZ wrote: »
    (Quote)

    Because someone else has already damaged the plane for at least 10 damage. That is why you get all the odd numbers for vehicle hit scores like 64, 37 and whatnot. Say a plane gets hit by an AA for 50 damage, it instant repairs for 33 and is up to 83 health again. He decides to make another pass before fully repairing and you hit it for 90. You get a kill, the score say you hit it for 83 and the thing explodes.I do not know how planes handle it, but if you take part damage your maximum health pool might be lower, that is how it was for tanks at least for a while. So you could not repair beyond X, when your turret got damaged.
    Many players will not spend 5 seconds to complete the last repair cycle for various reasons, they might not even notice it. And with a weapon that deals 90 damage max in a very short instance this will be deadly.

    Looks like you were right, I checked the recording and this is what I got damage wise when I killed the pilot and destroyed the plane in one FF burst....

    Enemy hit +100
    Rudder damaged +20
    Vehicle hit +89

    So I guess he was already at -11% health and I hit him for 89, with 20 of that damage being rudder damage. That seem about right?
    Yep, most likely. I am not saying there can't be any leeway, and from a pilot's perspective it can feel totally different, but the general data we have is correct. What you can say though, that you get a lot of points from using the FF, either way.
  • JamieCurnock
    616 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Just played 1 round of breakthrough where the defenders had 3 very good pilots. The FF was virtually pointless, if anything it baited them into targeting you more! Best bet is hope, hope that they don't kill you.

    Seriously though, I would have to dedicate my entire game to attacking planes, re-stock, repeat to have even the slightest of impact against one determined pilot let alone 3. Even if I had killed them all somehow they would be back layering bombs again 30 seconds later.

    After seeing just how dominating good pilots can be I'm even more sure that the FF is not op, hell give me more anti air for times like this!

    Idea - can we throw the new lunge mine at planes like a javelin? That would be so sweet.
  • Turban_Legend80
    4662 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Member
    Just played 1 round of breakthrough where the defenders had 3 very good pilots. The FF was virtually pointless, if anything it baited them into targeting you more! Best bet is hope, hope that they don't kill you.

    Seriously though, I would have to dedicate my entire game to attacking planes, re-stock, repeat to have even the slightest of impact against one determined pilot let alone 3. Even if I had killed them all somehow they would be back layering bombs again 30 seconds later.

    After seeing just how dominating good pilots can be I'm even more sure that the FF is not op, hell give me more anti air for times like this!

    Idea - can we throw the new lunge mine at planes like a javelin? That would be so sweet.

    If you were communicating with one or two other infantry also using FF then you would have been far more effective against them.

    I don’t know why people think that one infantry should be able to successfully counter any plane. Is this because of how strong just one assault is against ground vehicles? It can’t just be that because this mentality has existed since BF3.
  • Hawxxeye
    6002 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 8
    snavelaer said:
    Fliegerfaust is hardly a problem for aces but the AA on the pacific is powerfull and the real threat in the hands of a good AA operator.

    Keep this in mind when dealing with aces.

    Don’t stare to the sky with the FF but use the pacific stationairy AA.

    I have not yet met these good operators. So far in 1vs1 the pacific AA dies to the  plane's explosive cannons. Though it might be worth use the guy in AA as a bait to FF the guy while is is damaged and on a dive for the stationary AA


    Just played 1 round of breakthrough where the defenders had 3 very good pilots. The FF was virtually pointless, if anything it baited them into targeting you more! Best bet is hope, hope that they don't kill you.

    Seriously though, I would have to dedicate my entire game to attacking planes, re-stock, repeat to have even the slightest of impact against one determined pilot let alone 3. Even if I had killed them all somehow they would be back layering bombs again 30 seconds later.

    After seeing just how dominating good pilots can be I'm even more sure that the FF is not op, hell give me more anti air for times like this!

    Idea - can we throw the new lunge mine at planes like a javelin? That would be so sweet.

    If you were communicating with one or two other infantry also using FF then you would have been far more effective against them.

    I don’t know why people think that one infantry should be able to successfully counter any plane. Is this because of how strong just one assault is against ground vehicles? It can’t just be that because this mentality has existed since BF3.

    I just do not agree with aces having the god given right to kill everyone without any real threats to them if there is no other ace to counterbalance in the other team. The planes (the fighterish ones) are the only thing in these games that can completely deny all the map to is own kind. No tanker or soldier no matter how good they are can deny the entire map to other tanks/soldiers. I am currently trying to find what could possibly be a solution to that without making ground to air so strong that the normal pilots are unable to play. . The OPness of the assault as a class is another sad story that everyone is well aware though.
  • StealthAria
    334 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    (Quote)

    I have not yet met these good operators. So far in 1vs1 the pacific AA dies to the  plane's explosive cannons. Though it might be worth use the guy in AA as a bait to FF the guy while is is damaged and on a dive for the stationary AA

    (Quote)

    I just do not agree with aces having the god given right to kill everyone without any real threats to them if there is no other ace to counterbalance in the other team.
    The planes (the fighterish ones) are the only thing in these games that can completely deny all the map to is own kind. No tanker or soldier no matter how good they are can deny the entire map to other tanks/soldiers.
    I am currently trying to find what could possibly be a solution to that without making ground to air so strong that the normal pilots are unable to play.
    .
    The OPness of the assault as a class is another sad story that everyone is well aware though.

    You tried the current AA balance yet? Not even the aces can touch a good AA operator. I have no problem walking away from a head-on engagement with 4 HE 20mm's, heck, I've even practically soloed tanks a couple times using the AA stationaries.

    Don't get greedy and let them actually get in range before you start firing, aim for a wing first and make it impossible for them to stay on target. Never go after targets that can easily target you unless you're sure you can get the kill before they get a bead on you.
  • Hawxxeye
    6002 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye wrote: »
    (Quote)

    I have not yet met these good operators. So far in 1vs1 the pacific AA dies to the  plane's explosive cannons. Though it might be worth use the guy in AA as a bait to FF the guy while is is damaged and on a dive for the stationary AA

    (Quote)

    I just do not agree with aces having the god given right to kill everyone without any real threats to them if there is no other ace to counterbalance in the other team.
    The planes (the fighterish ones) are the only thing in these games that can completely deny all the map to is own kind. No tanker or soldier no matter how good they are can deny the entire map to other tanks/soldiers.
    I am currently trying to find what could possibly be a solution to that without making ground to air so strong that the normal pilots are unable to play.
    .
    The OPness of the assault as a class is another sad story that everyone is well aware though.

    You tried the current AA balance yet? Not even the aces can touch a good AA operator. I have no problem walking away from a head-on engagement with 4 HE 20mm's, heck, I've even practically soloed tanks a couple times using the AA stationaries.

    Don't get greedy and let them actually get in range before you start firing, aim for a wing first and make it impossible for them to stay on target. Never go after targets that can easily target you unless you're sure you can get the kill before they get a bead on you.
    This is how I do  play them myself, but when I am on the receiving end I have had no issues in head on fights.
    I will give them another shot later when I will have finished leveling the last tank
  • Desyatnik_Pansy
    1465 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    StealthAria said:
    You tried the current AA balance yet? Not even the aces can touch a good AA operator. I have no problem walking away from a head-on engagement with 4 HE 20mm's, heck, I've even practically soloed tanks a couple times using the AA stationaries.
    That's surprising. I'm not even an Ace, I have maybe 100+ Kills in only like two planes, yet with those 4x 20mm HE Guns I've had absolutely no issues with killing AA. I usually end up quite damaged from it, but I've never faced one and lost. Even if it's just "not a good AA Operator", I'm not exactly sure how that can affect the engagement. The only difference I can see between a good AA Operator and a bad one is the bad one will probably try and shoot at me well outside of his range, telling me that it's active, but for me that's not difference since I naturally assume they're operated unless proven otherwise (checking the map constantly helps too) and usually shoot at it beforehand.
  • runechaz
    5 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Nerf it  or  remove it from the Assault kit and made it a pick up weapon like the Katana and the flametrower.  Its just way to stupid that a carry weapon is more powerful that a stationary one.  
  • wiazabi
    511 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    I don't like weapons that are as easy to use as FF but currently A6M2 makes it a needed evil cause damn that plane is just insane and even with the FF you can still pick people off from long distance with HE.
  • cors24
    1 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Fix it !!  there is no chance to avoit it, when half of team use it, it's impossible to fly, DICE u SURE dat it should works like that ?
  • IDirtY_SeCreT
    544 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye said:
    If you like we are open to ideas on how to balance the detrimental effect that ace pilots have to the opposing team without cheap gadgets.
    Why must there be a counter that gives players with less skill a way to kill skilled players with no real effort? How about training instead? Do you give Lionel Messi a handicap cause Barca is playing against Espanyol? And here comes the but... I for one would make flying and bombing harder. Start with the complete removal of the 3rd person reticule and ~66% of pilots wont hit anything anymore. Right now every bot can farm infantry on maps like Fjell. Though experienced pilots, which training long time, should be rewarded and still get high killstreaks.
    What I don't understand is people, often with lack of skill, saying why anybody should be allowed to get 50-0. Maybe because he is just good at what he's doing. Thats how the freaking world works...
  • MBT_Layzan
    1617 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited November 9
    Hawxxeye said:
    If you like we are open to ideas on how to balance the detrimental effect that ace pilots have to the opposing team without cheap gadgets.
    Why must there be a counter that gives players with less skill a way to kill skilled players with no real effort? 
    I think most of us want AA that requires skill, but is effective. Mobile AA in skilled hands should be a nightmare to planes. As with stationary AA. Dice have gone with the FF. But most of the stuff in this game requires very little skill. How hard is it to use a Panzerfaust or camp in a bush and run at a tank with explosives or mines. I don't particularly find aiming with my tank hard.

    I'm very skilled/experienced in tanks, but I fall victim to the long list of things that can knock out armour. Including way lesser skilled pilots who often end up ramming me as they deliver their payload into my tank. Nothing I can do about it but soak it up and try and stay operational.      
  • DingoKillr
    3660 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    (Quote)

    Why must there be a counter that gives players with less skill a way to kill skilled players with no real effort? How about training instead? Do you give Lionel Messi a handicap cause Barca is playing against Espanyol? And here comes the but... I for one would make flying and bombing harder. Start with the complete removal of the 3rd person reticule and ~66% of pilots wont hit anything anymore. Right now every bot can farm infantry on maps like Fjell. Though experienced pilots, which training long time, should be rewarded and still get high killstreaks.What I don't understand is people, often with lack of skill, saying why anybody should be allowed to get 50-0. Maybe because he is just good at what he's doing. Thats how the freaking world works...
    @Hawxxeye probably would say it better then me.

    Anyone going 50-0 playing against people who the majority lack skill and have no way to counter is making the game less fun. Less fun means less players.

    BF is a team game where every player should need the help from others to win, that why an assemblage of balancing techniques is needed.

    Having high skilled AA or high skilled planes does not mean more will use the opposite occurs. As many players don't have time learn nor want to waste that time not having fun. DICE have seen that evidence with plane usage between BF4 and BF1. You want more proof look at the number of Assaults v Medics in BFV.

    Tanks a single AT mine can deny a whole area to a cautious driver, what is the equivalent to planes? None. They kill there threat and continue. AT rifles can harass tanks at long range whats the equivalent to planes? None. Yes planes are more exposed but range and speed favour the planes.

    Planes v AA is out of balance because DICE have set it to low skill and long range for planes while AA low skill and short range. This gives a major advantage to pilots who do have some skill. Which leads to 50-0 > many frustrated players > less players.

    What is also annoying about high skill AA to destroy a plane is the effort a team or individual puts in only for the plane and pilot to respawn shorter then the time you took to kill them.

    In my opinion if planes are not going to be harder to fly, longer spawn times and weaker damage output even with 1PV only then AA needs to improve
    - FF only needs less clustering of rockets, like burst of 3 rockets with a small gap. Planes that are close or flying straight at will likely get a full load. With those flying near by only getting between 1 or 2 burst of 3 rockets.
    - SAA is getting closer to what it should be more ranged AA that can harass planes in an area and then destroy if get to close. There is only a few this can be used by non AA Infantry.
    -MAA should be a plane killer. This could be done with a slow ROF ranged cannon with a secondary mode with high damage high ROF short range cannon.
    -incediary bullets need better range accuracy against planes. When used as you are often used without Bipods such as being able to ADS with the downside a longer TTK against infantry.
  • VincentNZ
    3195 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye said:
    If you like we are open to ideas on how to balance the detrimental effect that ace pilots have to the opposing team without cheap gadgets.
    Why must there be a counter that gives players with less skill a way to kill skilled players with no real effort? How about training instead? Do you give Lionel Messi a handicap cause Barca is playing against Espanyol? And here comes the but... I for one would make flying and bombing harder. Start with the complete removal of the 3rd person reticule and ~66% of pilots wont hit anything anymore. Right now every bot can farm infantry on maps like Fjell. Though experienced pilots, which training long time, should be rewarded and still get high killstreaks.
    What I don't understand is people, often with lack of skill, saying why anybody should be allowed to get 50-0. Maybe because he is just good at what he's doing. Thats how the freaking world works...
    Well, you might want to try going 50-0 in a regular match as infantry, and that won't happen regardless how skilled you are. Somehow removing yourself totally from the actual game played and only coming in for kills constitutes as skill.
    A vehicle is not a rare commodity, a vehicle is 100% effective manned by one person. Hence it is nothing special and should be treated as just another infantryman on the ground. Just as an anecdote, a couple of days ago I had a guy going 47-10, he was infantry first and then manned solely a bomber. This means that he was able to spawn the vehicle of his choice at least nine times in this game and resulting in a K/D of 4.7.
    And again, the use of the FF needs two people at least to counter a plane.
  • SirBobdk
    4125 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Imo air is a little odd on the pacific maps. The FF is so strong on close/medium range and the planes are strong on long range.
    This means that planes can farm infantry from a distance where FF can not reach and it is quite easy.
    It's not unusual to see pilots go 60-100 / 5 and in most cases the zero.There is also an imbalance between US and Japanese planes.
    Both FF and planes need a balanced, so planes have to fly closer to the ground, but without having to face instant death.

  • Turban_Legend80
    4662 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Member
    VincentNZ wrote: »
    (Quote)

    Well, you might want to try going 50-0 in a regular match as infantry, and that won't happen regardless how skilled you are. Somehow removing yourself totally from the actual game played and only coming in for kills constitutes as skill.
    A vehicle is not a rare commodity, a vehicle is 100% effective manned by one person. Hence it is nothing special and should be treated as just another infantryman on the ground. Just as an anecdote, a couple of days ago I had a guy going 47-10, he was infantry first and then manned solely a bomber. This means that he was able to spawn the vehicle of his choice at least nine times in this game and resulting in a K/D of 4.7.
    And again, the use of the FF needs two people at least to counter a plane.

    Vehicles are, and have always been, a force multiplier. Meaning they should be treated as more than “just another infantryman”. Or there is just no point in having them.
    Compared to infantry, vehicles are a rare commodity.
    Any solo infantry with any sort of brain can watch a plane and start firing his FF once it has taken any slight bit of damage from anything else.

    All you biased pilot haters just need to take a couple of seconds to think sensibly instead of letting your pilot rage take control of your senses.
  • VincentNZ
    3195 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    VincentNZ wrote: »
    (Quote)

    Well, you might want to try going 50-0 in a regular match as infantry, and that won't happen regardless how skilled you are. Somehow removing yourself totally from the actual game played and only coming in for kills constitutes as skill.
    A vehicle is not a rare commodity, a vehicle is 100% effective manned by one person. Hence it is nothing special and should be treated as just another infantryman on the ground. Just as an anecdote, a couple of days ago I had a guy going 47-10, he was infantry first and then manned solely a bomber. This means that he was able to spawn the vehicle of his choice at least nine times in this game and resulting in a K/D of 4.7.
    And again, the use of the FF needs two people at least to counter a plane.

    Vehicles are, and have always been, a force multiplier. Meaning they should be treated as more than “just another infantryman”. Or there is just no point in having them.
    Compared to infantry, vehicles are a rare commodity.
    Any solo infantry with any sort of brain can watch a plane and start firing his FF once it has taken any slight bit of damage from anything else.

    All you biased pilot haters just need to take a couple of seconds to think sensibly instead of letting your pilot rage take control of your senses.
    They are a force multiplier. They have much more health and weaponry that is totally independent of range dynamics. They need an combined effort from multiple players to take down, only two (one for planes) infantry classes can affect them, while being a threat to all players on the field.
    Additionally they are not a rare commodity, otherwise you would not be able to main a vehicle. You have 1-9 vehicles per side with the option to spawn them in yourself, too, with a cooldown of 180s. As seen in my example you can absolutely get the vehicle of your choice 9 times in a game that lasts 30 minutes.
    And no, any solo infantry can absolutely not engage a plane with the FF. It needs to be an Assault that has the FF equipped, which is, assuming 30% play Assault, 19 on a server, assuming 50% of them run the FF means 9,5 on a server again meaning 4-5 per team. That is the number of FF on average per team.
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