Planes are ridiculously OP again

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Comments

  • XRothbardX
    50 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    VOLBANKER said:
    Once again it's free infantry farming for planes on maps such as Fjell.

    AA needs to land too many shots to kill a plane, and since nobody's using the Flieger-thing anymore, I'm guessing it's been nerfed to the ground.

    It's so unbalanced it's laughable.
    dont forget the spotting, pilots can basically see all the infantry all the time now...
  • Hawxxeye
    7058 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    SirBobdk said:
    Hawxxeye said:
    The 8 rockets are now a lot better vs tanks I think too
    Did they change them. Didnt read anything in patch notes. Gonna give them a try.

    They now do no impact damage just more pure blast damage, so they no longer get glanced.
    That way they are stronger vs stationary AA too


  • SirBobdk
    5032 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye said:
    SirBobdk said:
    Hawxxeye said:
    The 8 rockets are now a lot better vs tanks I think too
    Did they change them. Didnt read anything in patch notes. Gonna give them a try.
    They now do no impact damage just more pure blast damage, so they no longer get glanced.
    That way they are stronger vs stationary AA too


    Thx m8. Forgot to try it yesterday. I'm getting old :D
  • Yaekin
    23 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Too often Players think that they need to Kill an Enemy , when really all they need to do is make that Enemy change their plans .

    A random bullet into an attacking plane still makes the Pilot look to see 'how much' they were hit - such a distraction can be fatal .
    One bullet , one point for its shooter , but the Pilot broke off deciding that it was the beginning of an aerial attack from behind .
    This has happened a couple times , and I imagine it's 'farmers' against whom this works best - they do not want to die , at all . 

    It's the same if I've used an AA against them - if I manage to land a few hits on them then what I've really done is I've got them thinking .
    Come back and get me , or stay away .  The brilliance of Attrition makes this a rather large decision for them .
    The best part is that whatever choice they make , it's a 'win' for my Team - being the sole target spares my Team , causing avoidance saves my Team .

    In the end , one of us is going to tickle that Bomber to death and get the Kill anyway .
    It'll either be the Infantryman who tickled it with the Fliegerfaust , the Fighter Pilot tickling it from behind , or me tickling it with an AA .
    That Bomber will die laughing .

    Regardless of who ends up getting the Kill , it'll be  T E A M W O R K  that is ultimately responsible for it .
    Teamwork tends to render everything underpowered in BFV , except Teamwork , which can also thankfully render things overpowered .
    When this real genuine Teamwork appears and collides , we get our lovely Battlefield .
    That's a cool idea, but in reality pilots are not afraid anymore of FF. They know that the probability of being destroyed in 1 FF shot is very low (if they fly correctly), so they just bomb the ground and they start to change their plan only when their hp drops below 50%. 

    Moreover, if your team has no plane (because a low level took one and crash it 10 s later for example) and no SAA, then the confusion between a FF shot or a bigger threat like SAA or Fighter Pilot is no longer possible.

    And in Breakthrough, there are areas where you can safely repair your plane. Which mean pilots will be more willing to take few shots to harass the ennemy team since they know they will be able to fully repair their plane.


    Since 5.2 you must see the FF as a smaller and less powerful version of SAA. Now let me ask you something :
    -> Do planes avoid areas covered by SAA ? Or do they dive on SAA to destroy them so they can fly safely ?

    (you have the answer in a video in this page)

    If a plane can dive on a SAA (a bigger threat than FF), why wouldn't he dive on a infantry group, even if they have some FF ?  
  • Hawxxeye
    7058 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Yaekin said:
    Too often Players think that they need to Kill an Enemy , when really all they need to do is make that Enemy change their plans .

    A random bullet into an attacking plane still makes the Pilot look to see 'how much' they were hit - such a distraction can be fatal .
    One bullet , one point for its shooter , but the Pilot broke off deciding that it was the beginning of an aerial attack from behind .
    This has happened a couple times , and I imagine it's 'farmers' against whom this works best - they do not want to die , at all . 

    It's the same if I've used an AA against them - if I manage to land a few hits on them then what I've really done is I've got them thinking .
    Come back and get me , or stay away .  The brilliance of Attrition makes this a rather large decision for them .
    The best part is that whatever choice they make , it's a 'win' for my Team - being the sole target spares my Team , causing avoidance saves my Team .

    In the end , one of us is going to tickle that Bomber to death and get the Kill anyway .
    It'll either be the Infantryman who tickled it with the Fliegerfaust , the Fighter Pilot tickling it from behind , or me tickling it with an AA .
    That Bomber will die laughing .

    Regardless of who ends up getting the Kill , it'll be  T E A M W O R K  that is ultimately responsible for it .
    Teamwork tends to render everything underpowered in BFV , except Teamwork , which can also thankfully render things overpowered .
    When this real genuine Teamwork appears and collides , we get our lovely Battlefield .
    That's a cool idea, but in reality pilots are not afraid anymore of FF. They know that the probability of being destroyed in 1 FF shot is very low (if they fly correctly), so they just bomb the ground and they start to change their plan only when their hp drops below 50%. 

    Moreover, if your team has no plane (because a low level took one and crash it 10 s later for example) and no SAA, then the confusion between a FF shot or a bigger threat like SAA or Fighter Pilot is no longer possible.

    And in Breakthrough, there are areas where you can safely repair your plane. Which mean pilots will be more willing to take few shots to harass the ennemy team since they know they will be able to fully repair their plane.


    Since 5.2 you must see the FF as a smaller and less powerful version of SAA. Now let me ask you something :
    -> Do planes avoid areas covered by SAA ? Or do they dive on SAA to destroy them so they can fly safely ?

    (you have the answer in a video in this page)

    If a plane can dive on a SAA (a bigger threat than FF), why wouldn't he dive on a infantry group, even if they have some FF ?  
    I had been playing on my clan's server yesterday and the ground forces kept getting pounded by a couple of planes from a different clan.
    The attempts to take them down from the ground were futile and fruitless. The only times where they would die is if I used the 6x HMG corshair and managed to shot down one of them before his "girlfriend" could get me from behind choo choo train style... 2 zeros vs 1 corshair, fun fun.
  • The_BERG_366
    2655 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    VincentNZ wrote: »
    (Quote)
    They have kill output comparable to good infantry and lower than vehicles, without ever being able to put physical pressure on the flags. Their targets are also more likely to be revived. This means that each kill does not even translate into a ticket loss. They also do not have enough killing power to halt an assault, just delay it, which is exactly the thing a vehicle or infantry can also do. They are comparable in gameplay effect to a really good hill sniper.There is a clear indicator for planes where infantry is and that is the auto-spot via a blinking flag icon. Flag goes down, targets are there. If it goes fast the target is viable, if it doesn't best to just save your ammo. On modes like BT this is arguably easier as the points where people bunch up is largely the same. Also the planes are far from easy to detect. The general foot soldier has other things to do than to look into the sky half of his time. The pilot will look at the ground most of the time, when he does his dive. Also structures and many world objects will simply limit sightlines to planes as well, and the sound only plays so that you just might have time to switch to the FF and fire, MIGHT. You total engagement window maybe is 4s and that only if the plane dives on top of you.People can main tanks and even planes. Yes, that means it is not scarce. Your chance of dying is low, and if you do, you are not locked out of the next spawn. Vehicle spawn is also free, so you can use the vehicle of your choice 100% of the time. You die, you wait 90-180 seconds for it to reappear. The more plane spawns the more likely it is to get one. Incidentally the more effective the FF is the less scarce plane spawns are, too.

    i still don't get what point you want to make with the whole "planes aren't useful as they aren't effective at killing and don't ptfo" argument. so you want to argue that an infy should be able to kill such a vehicle more easy than one thst chills on the flag? or is this an argument for having better countermeasures? I don't think thst valid at all.

    regardless, a plane can kill 4, 5 or even more infy in one strafe run (and you don't have to be an absolute pro pilot to do this. this can easily mean the difference between losing and holding a flag. as an infy on the hand its a lot harder to just quickly remove so many enemies from a flag. planes are super good against clusters of enemies but aren't that useful when the enemies are spread out 1 by 1. a good infy on the other hand can't do much about a huge group of enemies, but has the advantage of being able to quickly get rid of spread out enemies. just because the kill count of the average infy might be higher than the one of an average pilot (not even sure if that's actually accurate) doesn't mean they are useless. planes shine when infy are stuck in a huge linear frontlines. I think this makes the whole hill sniper comparison obsolete.

    you can't just spam a flag and expect to get kills. you need to be more accurate to actually kill the infy on the flag. so the flag icon are just an indicator of where to look for enemies, but they aren't actually showing a precise enough location to get a kill. I often struggle to find the people on a flag that is burning while in a plane.

    arguing that somehting isn't easy to detect because you don't see it when you don't look for it doesn't make sense. we were talking about whether it makes sense to have infy being able to kill a plane in the same amount of time as a plane can kill an infy. arguing that infy don't look in the sky somehow justifies that an infy can kill a plane in the same time as a plane can kill an infy despite such a hypothetical 1v1 fight being incredibly one sided in favour of the infy due to the visibility issues is ridiculous.

    finally scarcity of a vehicle isn't dependent on how many are actually being spawned in during a round... or if it is then "scarcity" is a useless measure...
  • The_BERG_366
    2655 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Yaekin wrote: »
    (Quote)
    Well, I am able to solo destroy a tank (maybe not Tiger) if i have full ammo and play correctly, with TNT+AT grenade+PIAT. Just sneak next to him, kill its repair man and launch everything while taking cover to reload.

    Why shouldn't I be able to solo destroy a plane if I can solo destroy tanks ?
    Why planes should require "teamwork" to be destroyed whereas tanks don't ? 
    Why planes get a special treatment ?


    I should be able to destroy a plane solo IF he comes too close to the ground and is too greedy for kills. That's what the old FF was about. 

    can you solo kill any tank of your preference regardless of what the driver does? I doubt it... and that is exactly what I was talking about, not solo kills in general.
    you then add in certain conditions on your last paragraph, meaning that you also just want to be able to do thst under certain circumstances, which is exactly what I said myself, so what are you arguing against here?

    regardless I don't agree with your comparison anyways. no infy can quickly damage a top tier tanker for 90 by himself unless the tanker makes a mistake. the tanker can still enter "dangerous territory" but he will never get damaged for 90 by a single guy. if a top tanker goes down to enemy infy its because he gets overwhelmed by them.
    the pre patch fliegerfaust however was just completely random and wouldn't require any kind of ability to use. no matter how good a pilot was and no matter how bad an infy was the infy could still just instantly inflict 90 damage to the plane out of nowhere.
  • Hawxxeye
    7058 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    VincentNZ wrote: »
    (Quote)
    They have kill output comparable to good infantry and lower than vehicles, without ever being able to put physical pressure on the flags. Their targets are also more likely to be revived. This means that each kill does not even translate into a ticket loss. They also do not have enough killing power to halt an assault, just delay it, which is exactly the thing a vehicle or infantry can also do. They are comparable in gameplay effect to a really good hill sniper.There is a clear indicator for planes where infantry is and that is the auto-spot via a blinking flag icon. Flag goes down, targets are there. If it goes fast the target is viable, if it doesn't best to just save your ammo. On modes like BT this is arguably easier as the points where people bunch up is largely the same. Also the planes are far from easy to detect. The general foot soldier has other things to do than to look into the sky half of his time. The pilot will look at the ground most of the time, when he does his dive. Also structures and many world objects will simply limit sightlines to planes as well, and the sound only plays so that you just might have time to switch to the FF and fire, MIGHT. You total engagement window maybe is 4s and that only if the plane dives on top of you.People can main tanks and even planes. Yes, that means it is not scarce. Your chance of dying is low, and if you do, you are not locked out of the next spawn. Vehicle spawn is also free, so you can use the vehicle of your choice 100% of the time. You die, you wait 90-180 seconds for it to reappear. The more plane spawns the more likely it is to get one. Incidentally the more effective the FF is the less scarce plane spawns are, too.

    i still don't get what point you want to make with the whole "planes aren't useful as they aren't effective at killing and don't ptfo" argument. so you want to argue that an infy should be able to kill such a vehicle more easy than one thst chills on the flag? or is this an argument for having better countermeasures? I don't think thst valid at all.

    regardless, a plane can kill 4, 5 or even more infy in one strafe run (and you don't have to be an absolute pro pilot to do this. this can easily mean the difference between losing and holding a flag. as an infy on the hand its a lot harder to just quickly remove so many enemies from a flag. planes are super good against clusters of enemies but aren't that useful when the enemies are spread out 1 by 1. a good infy on the other hand can't do much about a huge group of enemies, but has the advantage of being able to quickly get rid of spread out enemies. just because the kill count of the average infy might be higher than the one of an average pilot (not even sure if that's actually accurate) doesn't mean they are useless. planes shine when infy are stuck in a huge linear frontlines. I think this makes the whole hill sniper comparison obsolete.

    you can't just spam a flag and expect to get kills. you need to be more accurate to actually kill the infy on the flag. so the flag icon are just an indicator of where to look for enemies, but they aren't actually showing a precise enough location to get a kill. I often struggle to find the people on a flag that is burning while in a plane.

    arguing that somehting isn't easy to detect because you don't see it when you don't look for it doesn't make sense. we were talking about whether it makes sense to have infy being able to kill a plane in the same amount of time as a plane can kill an infy. arguing that infy don't look in the sky somehow justifies that an infy can kill a plane in the same time as a plane can kill an infy despite such a hypothetical 1v1 fight being incredibly one sided in favour of the infy due to the visibility issues is ridiculous.

    finally scarcity of a vehicle isn't dependent on how many are actually being spawned in during a round... or if it is then "scarcity" is a useless measure...
    For me personally the ideal relationship between ground and planes is for both of them to be devastating to each other so each time one gets the jump on the other things explode. To that ideal I also want the aircraft to have better visibility of the ground forces.
    .
    So if the ground is not prepared enough they will get heavy losses while if the ground is prepared the plane will have to take a massive risk/kamikaze in order to deliver a payload.
    .
    The prevalent meta of the planes being just considerably annoying on the ground forces while the ground has little chance of fighting back is not exciting enough for either side imho.
  • DogRoyal
    119 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member

    The threat from air increased massively since the update at least for Pacific maps. It is back to pre-FF and even worse. The nerf (because it is a nerf) of the FF AND now the pacific planes have the extra bombing visuals. From a ground perspective the introduction of FF resulted in a pretty good balance imo. You were still killed by air but it was reasonable and counterable and plane spawn time is so low anyway (for some odd reason much lower than other vehicles). I was bombed from 100 to 0 in tanks pre patch but it was not that often - with the new bombsight it happens waaaay more often.

    A skilled pilot can, and often does, single handedly decide a match. And lets be real: all AA is useless against such pilot,s and without the previous version of FF all you can do now is run for cover = quit and find another server.

    Planes are definitely back to being OP

  • The_BERG_366
    2655 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    (Quote)
    NLBartmaN I have to disagree, FF is almost useless now. Pre-5.2 pilots had a risk vs reward trade off for farming infantry and actually started adapting their tactics to meet the new FF threat.  Now after the FF nerf all I see if pilots going back and doing what they did to infantry before the FF launched and if you fire back at the pilot you might damage him and still die.

    expecting to fire back and get an instant kill as an infy on a vehicle is rather arrogant.

    Not at all it’s called balance when he’s flying right at you Very low. Pre-patch there was balance hence why pilots adapted their tactics and still did well unless they tried to fly low to farm. Arrogant is thinking that pilots should have nothing to fear outside of another plane.

    how does it improve balance if it doesn't change anything about the effectiveness of a pilot as soon as he adapts?
    also there's a huge area between expecting to get an instant kill just for firing back and planes not having to worry about anything other than other planes.
    the fliegerfaust didn't do what people describe it did (keeping planes away from the ground). I never adapted my playstyle and it didn't hurt me at all in most of the cases. the fliegerfaust was just the annoying randomness that just sometimes came out of nowhere and instantly inflicted 90 damage. I then just proceeded to quickly fly back to the next ammo station and repaired the plane up again. of course there was instances where it would cause me to het shot down, but for the most part it just made me back off for like 30 seconds and then I was back in action again. it also would never actually stop me from doing a strafing run, it would just damage me AFTER I finished it.
    imo such a gadget should be there to prevent pilots from getting closer, not heavily damage them in like 5% of all cases when they are already close.
    it's the same concept as with AP mines. it's not worth it to adapt your playstyle to as it decreases your effectiveness more than when you are just accepting getting killed by the gadget every now and then. and that's just flawed design imo.
  • MBT_Layzan
    2460 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye said:
    VincentNZ wrote: »
    (Quote)
    They have kill output comparable to good infantry and lower than vehicles, without ever being able to put physical pressure on the flags. Their targets are also more likely to be revived. This means that each kill does not even translate into a ticket loss. They also do not have enough killing power to halt an assault, just delay it, which is exactly the thing a vehicle or infantry can also do. They are comparable in gameplay effect to a really good hill sniper.There is a clear indicator for planes where infantry is and that is the auto-spot via a blinking flag icon. Flag goes down, targets are there. If it goes fast the target is viable, if it doesn't best to just save your ammo. On modes like BT this is arguably easier as the points where people bunch up is largely the same. Also the planes are far from easy to detect. The general foot soldier has other things to do than to look into the sky half of his time. The pilot will look at the ground most of the time, when he does his dive. Also structures and many world objects will simply limit sightlines to planes as well, and the sound only plays so that you just might have time to switch to the FF and fire, MIGHT. You total engagement window maybe is 4s and that only if the plane dives on top of you.People can main tanks and even planes. Yes, that means it is not scarce. Your chance of dying is low, and if you do, you are not locked out of the next spawn. Vehicle spawn is also free, so you can use the vehicle of your choice 100% of the time. You die, you wait 90-180 seconds for it to reappear. The more plane spawns the more likely it is to get one. Incidentally the more effective the FF is the less scarce plane spawns are, too.

    i still don't get what point you want to make with the whole "planes aren't useful as they aren't effective at killing and don't ptfo" argument. so you want to argue that an infy should be able to kill such a vehicle more easy than one thst chills on the flag? or is this an argument for having better countermeasures? I don't think thst valid at all.

    regardless, a plane can kill 4, 5 or even more infy in one strafe run (and you don't have to be an absolute pro pilot to do this. this can easily mean the difference between losing and holding a flag. as an infy on the hand its a lot harder to just quickly remove so many enemies from a flag. planes are super good against clusters of enemies but aren't that useful when the enemies are spread out 1 by 1. a good infy on the other hand can't do much about a huge group of enemies, but has the advantage of being able to quickly get rid of spread out enemies. just because the kill count of the average infy might be higher than the one of an average pilot (not even sure if that's actually accurate) doesn't mean they are useless. planes shine when infy are stuck in a huge linear frontlines. I think this makes the whole hill sniper comparison obsolete.

    you can't just spam a flag and expect to get kills. you need to be more accurate to actually kill the infy on the flag. so the flag icon are just an indicator of where to look for enemies, but they aren't actually showing a precise enough location to get a kill. I often struggle to find the people on a flag that is burning while in a plane.

    arguing that somehting isn't easy to detect because you don't see it when you don't look for it doesn't make sense. we were talking about whether it makes sense to have infy being able to kill a plane in the same amount of time as a plane can kill an infy. arguing that infy don't look in the sky somehow justifies that an infy can kill a plane in the same time as a plane can kill an infy despite such a hypothetical 1v1 fight being incredibly one sided in favour of the infy due to the visibility issues is ridiculous.

    finally scarcity of a vehicle isn't dependent on how many are actually being spawned in during a round... or if it is then "scarcity" is a useless measure...
    For me personally the ideal relationship between ground and planes is for both of them to be devastating to each other so each time one gets the jump on the other things explode. To that ideal I also want the aircraft to have better visibility of the ground forces.
    .
    So if the ground is not prepared enough they will get heavy losses while if the ground is prepared the plane will have to take a massive risk/kamikaze in order to deliver a payload.
    .
    The prevalent meta of the planes being just considerably annoying on the ground forces while the ground has little chance of fighting back is not exciting enough for either side imho.
    Hence my frustration because as a person who love tanks, on pacific I have almost no options but to take it. Can't even hide really. I wish I could arm an FF instead of mines to help my side when the tank inevitably pops/has just attacked me and is flying off. Or say get to one of those ammo creates and be able to arm one there. Anything. 
  • Hawxxeye
    7058 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    Hawxxeye said:
    VincentNZ wrote: »
    (Quote)
    They have kill output comparable to good infantry and lower than vehicles, without ever being able to put physical pressure on the flags. Their targets are also more likely to be revived. This means that each kill does not even translate into a ticket loss. They also do not have enough killing power to halt an assault, just delay it, which is exactly the thing a vehicle or infantry can also do. They are comparable in gameplay effect to a really good hill sniper.There is a clear indicator for planes where infantry is and that is the auto-spot via a blinking flag icon. Flag goes down, targets are there. If it goes fast the target is viable, if it doesn't best to just save your ammo. On modes like BT this is arguably easier as the points where people bunch up is largely the same. Also the planes are far from easy to detect. The general foot soldier has other things to do than to look into the sky half of his time. The pilot will look at the ground most of the time, when he does his dive. Also structures and many world objects will simply limit sightlines to planes as well, and the sound only plays so that you just might have time to switch to the FF and fire, MIGHT. You total engagement window maybe is 4s and that only if the plane dives on top of you.People can main tanks and even planes. Yes, that means it is not scarce. Your chance of dying is low, and if you do, you are not locked out of the next spawn. Vehicle spawn is also free, so you can use the vehicle of your choice 100% of the time. You die, you wait 90-180 seconds for it to reappear. The more plane spawns the more likely it is to get one. Incidentally the more effective the FF is the less scarce plane spawns are, too.

    i still don't get what point you want to make with the whole "planes aren't useful as they aren't effective at killing and don't ptfo" argument. so you want to argue that an infy should be able to kill such a vehicle more easy than one thst chills on the flag? or is this an argument for having better countermeasures? I don't think thst valid at all.

    regardless, a plane can kill 4, 5 or even more infy in one strafe run (and you don't have to be an absolute pro pilot to do this. this can easily mean the difference between losing and holding a flag. as an infy on the hand its a lot harder to just quickly remove so many enemies from a flag. planes are super good against clusters of enemies but aren't that useful when the enemies are spread out 1 by 1. a good infy on the other hand can't do much about a huge group of enemies, but has the advantage of being able to quickly get rid of spread out enemies. just because the kill count of the average infy might be higher than the one of an average pilot (not even sure if that's actually accurate) doesn't mean they are useless. planes shine when infy are stuck in a huge linear frontlines. I think this makes the whole hill sniper comparison obsolete.

    you can't just spam a flag and expect to get kills. you need to be more accurate to actually kill the infy on the flag. so the flag icon are just an indicator of where to look for enemies, but they aren't actually showing a precise enough location to get a kill. I often struggle to find the people on a flag that is burning while in a plane.

    arguing that somehting isn't easy to detect because you don't see it when you don't look for it doesn't make sense. we were talking about whether it makes sense to have infy being able to kill a plane in the same amount of time as a plane can kill an infy. arguing that infy don't look in the sky somehow justifies that an infy can kill a plane in the same time as a plane can kill an infy despite such a hypothetical 1v1 fight being incredibly one sided in favour of the infy due to the visibility issues is ridiculous.

    finally scarcity of a vehicle isn't dependent on how many are actually being spawned in during a round... or if it is then "scarcity" is a useless measure...
    For me personally the ideal relationship between ground and planes is for both of them to be devastating to each other so each time one gets the jump on the other things explode. To that ideal I also want the aircraft to have better visibility of the ground forces.
    .
    So if the ground is not prepared enough they will get heavy losses while if the ground is prepared the plane will have to take a massive risk/kamikaze in order to deliver a payload.
    .
    The prevalent meta of the planes being just considerably annoying on the ground forces while the ground has little chance of fighting back is not exciting enough for either side imho.
    Hence my frustration because as a person who love tanks, on pacific I have almost no options but to take it. Can't even hide really. I wish I could arm an FF instead of mines to help my side when the tank inevitably pops/has just attacked me and is flying off. Or say get to one of those ammo creates and be able to arm one there. Anything. 
    The only thing the current tanker class loadout is good for , is for abandoning a heavily damaged tank and putting AT mines bellow it in order to troll the the enemy who will try to take it as his own without suspecting the trickery...
  • VincentNZ
    3885 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    VincentNZ wrote: »
    (Quote)
    They have kill output comparable to good infantry and lower than vehicles, without ever being able to put physical pressure on the flags. Their targets are also more likely to be revived. This means that each kill does not even translate into a ticket loss. They also do not have enough killing power to halt an assault, just delay it, which is exactly the thing a vehicle or infantry can also do. They are comparable in gameplay effect to a really good hill sniper.There is a clear indicator for planes where infantry is and that is the auto-spot via a blinking flag icon. Flag goes down, targets are there. If it goes fast the target is viable, if it doesn't best to just save your ammo. On modes like BT this is arguably easier as the points where people bunch up is largely the same. Also the planes are far from easy to detect. The general foot soldier has other things to do than to look into the sky half of his time. The pilot will look at the ground most of the time, when he does his dive. Also structures and many world objects will simply limit sightlines to planes as well, and the sound only plays so that you just might have time to switch to the FF and fire, MIGHT. You total engagement window maybe is 4s and that only if the plane dives on top of you.People can main tanks and even planes. Yes, that means it is not scarce. Your chance of dying is low, and if you do, you are not locked out of the next spawn. Vehicle spawn is also free, so you can use the vehicle of your choice 100% of the time. You die, you wait 90-180 seconds for it to reappear. The more plane spawns the more likely it is to get one. Incidentally the more effective the FF is the less scarce plane spawns are, too.

    i still don't get what point you want to make with the whole "planes aren't useful as they aren't effective at killing and don't ptfo" argument. so you want to argue that an infy should be able to kill such a vehicle more easy than one thst chills on the flag? or is this an argument for having better countermeasures? I don't think thst valid at all.

    regardless, a plane can kill 4, 5 or even more infy in one strafe run (and you don't have to be an absolute pro pilot to do this. this can easily mean the difference between losing and holding a flag. as an infy on the hand its a lot harder to just quickly remove so many enemies from a flag. planes are super good against clusters of enemies but aren't that useful when the enemies are spread out 1 by 1. a good infy on the other hand can't do much about a huge group of enemies, but has the advantage of being able to quickly get rid of spread out enemies. just because the kill count of the average infy might be higher than the one of an average pilot (not even sure if that's actually accurate) doesn't mean they are useless. planes shine when infy are stuck in a huge linear frontlines. I think this makes the whole hill sniper comparison obsolete.

    you can't just spam a flag and expect to get kills. you need to be more accurate to actually kill the infy on the flag. so the flag icon are just an indicator of where to look for enemies, but they aren't actually showing a precise enough location to get a kill. I often struggle to find the people on a flag that is burning while in a plane.

    arguing that somehting isn't easy to detect because you don't see it when you don't look for it doesn't make sense. we were talking about whether it makes sense to have infy being able to kill a plane in the same amount of time as a plane can kill an infy. arguing that infy don't look in the sky somehow justifies that an infy can kill a plane in the same time as a plane can kill an infy despite such a hypothetical 1v1 fight being incredibly one sided in favour of the infy due to the visibility issues is ridiculous.

    finally scarcity of a vehicle isn't dependent on how many are actually being spawned in during a round... or if it is then "scarcity" is a useless measure...

    Nah, personally I think the only thing they can do to balance it is to either remove all plane to ground interaction and just have them dogfight it out, remove free vehicle spawn so there always is an MAA and a set amount of planes on the map, or to remove them from the next game completely.
    What I am saying is that pilots here go 40-0 and say that is all reasonable because the planes are a rare asset, or because they have such a huge teamplay value, which they do not. Pilots simply do not understand that their fun is useless for the team and that their only effect on this game is to frustrate players, and that they only get into planes is to kill people and boost their K/D.
    Infantry can outkill planes, and easily outscore planes and even if they do not their impact is less relevant as they can not physically exist on objectives, and they do not draw fire in the same way as vehicles or infantry, as there is only one gadget on one class that can effect them.
    The only slight exception is on BT and even then it is debatable, as you will have as much as 32 people on flags duking it out. On Conquest the performance of planes is irrelevant, especially since vehicle count is symmetrical.
    When an encounter only has an engagement window of 4s you need to be able to kill it, absolutely. And alone, too, preferably unless you can rely on someone else being able to do the same. In that engagement window you will have to be able to chew through 130 health. And it needs to be repeatable and a regular occurence not bound to specific circumstances, modes, maps or player count/density.
    And 4s is generous, as the sound of the plane will make sure you will barely have the time to react aim and shoot, unless you actively look for it. Further, even if we assume 30% play Assault, we still have three gadgets to choose from that directly compete with the FF. So that is, assuming there is only one vehicle, a plane, on the map, and 64p 10-11 Assaults and, again assuming equal distribution, three 3-4 FFs on the map. And these 3-4 Assault need to be able to reliably kill the plane when it engages. You can decide if that is worthwhile. I say it isn't especially since you can not bank on MAA being on the map or SAA being used, which still is the most ridiculous notion, players devoting their round to SAA usage.
    And yes, I define scarcity, if it is not a hassle to reliably man the vehicle of your choice. With free vehicle spawn, a 90-180s CD on your own vehicle and generally a good amount of vehicles on the map paired with a rather low amount of players adhering to the vehicle playstyle it is rather easy to man a specific vehicle if you wish to do so.
  • Lahoo_Eckbert
    1312 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited December 2019
    NLBartmaN said:
    DaMutha1 said:
    As someone who used the FF obsessively on Fjell since it came out, I can assure you that it is in no way, shape or form even better now.
    You have to aim now, so yeah I understand it is "harder" ... the advanatge is: you have a LOT more timeto do so with its double range ...
    Aiming isn't the problem.  You have 2 volleys now so you have to land 2 of them on a plane for a onehit kill. 
    Range thing is an illusion, there is no way in hell anyone can shoot a plane in the 300+ meters range, let alone 600 meters and land both volleys. With dusting an all, it is near impossible.

    You can still get 1 hit kills, but the plane has to come close and you have to have it in like 60 degree cone view. Otherwise it is impractical. I've dealt 40-70 damage to planes in different circumstances, but unless there is a follow up, they just fly away and repair and come back at full hp.

  • Squad_Cohesion
    910 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    NLBartmaN said:
    DaMutha1 said:
    As someone who used the FF obsessively on Fjell since it came out, I can assure you that it is in no way, shape or form even better now.
    You have to aim now, so yeah I understand it is "harder" ... the advanatge is: you have a LOT more timeto do so with its double range ...
    Aiming isn't the problem.  You have 2 volleys now so you have to land 2 of them on a plane for a onehit kill. 
    Range thing is an illusion, there is no way in hell anyone can shoot a plane in the 300+ meters range, let alone 600 meters and land both volleys. With dusting an all, it is near impossible.

    You can still get 1 hit kills, but the plane has to come close and you have to have it in like 60 degree cone view. Otherwise it is impractical. I've dealt 40-70 damage to planes in different circumstances, but unless there is a follow up, they just fly away and repair and come back at full hp.


    If DICE would have made the MMG incendiary AA bullets actually do enough damage, teamplay would have been incentivized. Now, theyre even more useless as before the 5.2 because of the less-damage-over-range damage system. As if the whole specialization doesnt exist in the game as such. What a waste.
  • VincentNZ
    3885 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    NLBartmaN said:
    DaMutha1 said:
    As someone who used the FF obsessively on Fjell since it came out, I can assure you that it is in no way, shape or form even better now.
    You have to aim now, so yeah I understand it is "harder" ... the advanatge is: you have a LOT more timeto do so with its double range ...
    Aiming isn't the problem.  You have 2 volleys now so you have to land 2 of them on a plane for a onehit kill. 
    Range thing is an illusion, there is no way in hell anyone can shoot a plane in the 300+ meters range, let alone 600 meters and land both volleys. With dusting an all, it is near impossible.

    You can still get 1 hit kills, but the plane has to come close and you have to have it in like 60 degree cone view. Otherwise it is impractical. I've dealt 40-70 damage to planes in different circumstances, but unless there is a follow up, they just fly away and repair and come back at full hp.


    If DICE would have made the MMG incendiary AA bullets actually do enough damage, teamplay would have been incentivized. Now, theyre even more useless as before the 5.2 because of the less-damage-over-range damage system. As if the whole specialization doesnt exist in the game as such. What a waste.

    Well incendiary was useless before, since MMGs by design can not aim up in this game.
  • Yaekin
    23 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    can you solo kill any tank of your preference regardless of what the driver does? I doubt it... and that is exactly what I was talking about, not solo kills in general.
    you then add in certain conditions on your last paragraph, meaning that you also just want to be able to do thst under certain circumstances, which is exactly what I said myself, so what are you arguing against here?

    regardless I don't agree with your comparison anyways. no infy can quickly damage a top tier tanker for 90 by himself unless the tanker makes a mistake. the tanker can still enter "dangerous territory" but he will never get damaged for 90 by a single guy. if a top tanker goes down to enemy infy its because he gets overwhelmed by them.
    Ok, you're right. here some clarification :

    I can solokill a tank IF he goes too close to our infantry and rushes into areas controlled by our team.  In sum : he is punished for being too greedy. But you're right, it's hard to kill a good tanker who is moving forward with his team and retreating when he needs to. (And that's why planes are important in BF games, they counter tanks).

    I just ask for the same principle for planes : good pilots who know where and when to strike should be safe and not easily destroyed. However, if a pilot flies too close to the ground in a hostile area, then he should be punished for that.

    Right now the difference between expert and noob pilots is too small because you can't really punish these latter.
  • The_BERG_366
    2655 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    VincentNZ said:
    VincentNZ wrote: »
    (Quote)
    They have kill output comparable to good infantry and lower than vehicles, without ever being able to put physical pressure on the flags. Their targets are also more likely to be revived. This means that each kill does not even translate into a ticket loss. They also do not have enough killing power to halt an assault, just delay it, which is exactly the thing a vehicle or infantry can also do. They are comparable in gameplay effect to a really good hill sniper.There is a clear indicator for planes where infantry is and that is the auto-spot via a blinking flag icon. Flag goes down, targets are there. If it goes fast the target is viable, if it doesn't best to just save your ammo. On modes like BT this is arguably easier as the points where people bunch up is largely the same. Also the planes are far from easy to detect. The general foot soldier has other things to do than to look into the sky half of his time. The pilot will look at the ground most of the time, when he does his dive. Also structures and many world objects will simply limit sightlines to planes as well, and the sound only plays so that you just might have time to switch to the FF and fire, MIGHT. You total engagement window maybe is 4s and that only if the plane dives on top of you.People can main tanks and even planes. Yes, that means it is not scarce. Your chance of dying is low, and if you do, you are not locked out of the next spawn. Vehicle spawn is also free, so you can use the vehicle of your choice 100% of the time. You die, you wait 90-180 seconds for it to reappear. The more plane spawns the more likely it is to get one. Incidentally the more effective the FF is the less scarce plane spawns are, too.

    i still don't get what point you want to make with the whole "planes aren't useful as they aren't effective at killing and don't ptfo" argument. so you want to argue that an infy should be able to kill such a vehicle more easy than one thst chills on the flag? or is this an argument for having better countermeasures? I don't think thst valid at all.

    regardless, a plane can kill 4, 5 or even more infy in one strafe run (and you don't have to be an absolute pro pilot to do this. this can easily mean the difference between losing and holding a flag. as an infy on the hand its a lot harder to just quickly remove so many enemies from a flag. planes are super good against clusters of enemies but aren't that useful when the enemies are spread out 1 by 1. a good infy on the other hand can't do much about a huge group of enemies, but has the advantage of being able to quickly get rid of spread out enemies. just because the kill count of the average infy might be higher than the one of an average pilot (not even sure if that's actually accurate) doesn't mean they are useless. planes shine when infy are stuck in a huge linear frontlines. I think this makes the whole hill sniper comparison obsolete.

    you can't just spam a flag and expect to get kills. you need to be more accurate to actually kill the infy on the flag. so the flag icon are just an indicator of where to look for enemies, but they aren't actually showing a precise enough location to get a kill. I often struggle to find the people on a flag that is burning while in a plane.

    arguing that somehting isn't easy to detect because you don't see it when you don't look for it doesn't make sense. we were talking about whether it makes sense to have infy being able to kill a plane in the same amount of time as a plane can kill an infy. arguing that infy don't look in the sky somehow justifies that an infy can kill a plane in the same time as a plane can kill an infy despite such a hypothetical 1v1 fight being incredibly one sided in favour of the infy due to the visibility issues is ridiculous.

    finally scarcity of a vehicle isn't dependent on how many are actually being spawned in during a round... or if it is then "scarcity" is a useless measure...

    Nah, personally I think the only thing they can do to balance it is to either remove all plane to ground interaction and just have them dogfight it out, remove free vehicle spawn so there always is an MAA and a set amount of planes on the map, or to remove them from the next game completely.
    What I am saying is that pilots here go 40-0 and say that is all reasonable because the planes are a rare asset, or because they have such a huge teamplay value, which they do not. Pilots simply do not understand that their fun is useless for the team and that their only effect on this game is to frustrate players, and that they only get into planes is to kill people and boost their K/D.
    Infantry can outkill planes, and easily outscore planes and even if they do not their impact is less relevant as they can not physically exist on objectives, and they do not draw fire in the same way as vehicles or infantry, as there is only one gadget on one class that can effect them.
    The only slight exception is on BT and even then it is debatable, as you will have as much as 32 people on flags duking it out. On Conquest the performance of planes is irrelevant, especially since vehicle count is symmetrical.
    When an encounter only has an engagement window of 4s you need to be able to kill it, absolutely. And alone, too, preferably unless you can rely on someone else being able to do the same. In that engagement window you will have to be able to chew through 130 health. And it needs to be repeatable and a regular occurence not bound to specific circumstances, modes, maps or player count/density.
    And 4s is generous, as the sound of the plane will make sure you will barely have the time to react aim and shoot, unless you actively look for it. Further, even if we assume 30% play Assault, we still have three gadgets to choose from that directly compete with the FF. So that is, assuming there is only one vehicle, a plane, on the map, and 64p 10-11 Assaults and, again assuming equal distribution, three 3-4 FFs on the map. And these 3-4 Assault need to be able to reliably kill the plane when it engages. You can decide if that is worthwhile. I say it isn't especially since you can not bank on MAA being on the map or SAA being used, which still is the most ridiculous notion, players devoting their round to SAA usage.
    And yes, I define scarcity, if it is not a hassle to reliably man the vehicle of your choice. With free vehicle spawn, a 90-180s CD on your own vehicle and generally a good amount of vehicles on the map paired with a rather low amount of players adhering to the vehicle playstyle it is rather easy to man a specific vehicle if you wish to do so.
    ok i understand that but why are you saying this in this conversation? we were talking about the balance of the Fliegerfaust and the intentions for people to fly planes aren't really relevant to that. you might not like the way planes are implemented but that doesn't make for a valid argument to have a badly implemented counter to them. 

    i disagree and i think this view on the subject is very narrow minded. "I have 4 seconds to kill it hence i need to be able to kill it in 4 seconds". in a way, yes, but that doens't mean we need a gun that almost oneshots a plane. i already stated before that it should rather be a gadget that does damage over time to make a plane back off and hence actually protect the infy on the ground. for example such that one is in deed able to kill the plane within 4 seconds, but 4 seconds of straight firing at it, not one burst and down. also when you spoke about infy killing a plane in the same amount of time as a plane kills an infy i was thinking of considerably shorter time intervals than 4 seconds...

    again arguing that an infy should basically be able to turn on a plane is absolutely ridiculous. arguing: "well theres other things to worry about hence i need something to turn on the things that surprise me" is ridiculous. actually this is already possible with the panzerfaust (as mentioned before) but that one is obviously not very reliable for most users. but again, an infy doesn't need to be a one man army that can just protect itself from everything. a plane is a vehicle that has a certain scarcity and should clearly be above infy in the battlefield "food chain". It absolutely should require teamwork or at least decent dedication to destroy any vehicle and not just "oh wait i hear a plane, let me one shot real quick". hence why i say something that does damage over time would be more suitable...

    let me ask you one question. you speak about how 3-4 FFS abosolutely NEED to be able to reliably kill engaging planes. now, how can planes reliably kill these 3-4 assaults assuming a FF like you would prefer it to be? 
  • VincentNZ
    3885 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    @The_BERG_366 Well it is tied together. The FF barely put a dent into the killcounts of planes. What it did was put a dent into the deaths of pilots, 40-0 was then 30-6 or something like that. The FF did not change the killing power of the planes, just gave the ground a counter that worked and was used. That is where the complaints from pilots stem from, they die too fast, meaning, they died at all then.
    Thing is, for a gadget to be used it needs to be rewarding. And reward mostly means kills. The FF delivered it because you only needed two people working together so the outcome that one player gets a kill and 250 points is good, while the other gets 40-90 for one shot. That makes sense.
    Engaging vehicles now is not rewarding, you expend your arsenal, and do 33 damage on average with the PF, have spend 12 seconds on it and somebody else gets the kill, while you risked all. Hence usage drops. With the FF it is the same. With lower reward or increased risk, the incentive to use it is smaller, yet the planes stay the same and again have no real counter. Just an area of denial tool is not good enough, as it will not be used. When a thing does not kill it is not used.
    Planes are and always were, like all other vehicles, superior to infantry, there is no arguing about it. However everything needs a counter and a hard counter, too. This is not given for various reasons.
    How can a plane kill the 3-4 Assaults? Well it can't realistically, like a tank can't realistically take on 4 Assaults. They do not have to though. Planes and vehicles will rarely meet their optimal counters. The maps are huge and multiple flags are attacked at all times, with people moving in between, and many are not in the spot to fight the plane at all times, either. So the plane will pick off people and have a good chance to come off unscathed unless the Assaults converge through teamplay.
    And again, the plane does not need to employ any form of teamplay at all to succeed, the infantry has to.
  • VOLBANKER
    1589 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    I just got a direct hit with the Fliegelfaust on a plane that had dived VERY low towards flag D on Fjell.

    It had reached the "bottom" of it's dive, and was gonna climb up again, then just the split second it started it's climb up again, I hit it with my FF.

    86 damage.

    The plane was so close it was crazy, yet no kill with the FF.
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