So the reason why people quit games is because they die to fast but then you add this new SMG?

Comments

  • NLBartmaN
    3995 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    jroggs said:
    All right, you twisted my arm. So how would you explain these ranged-tagged kills with distances from roughly 42 to 72 meters, then?



    I knocked these out just playing a few matches and spot-tagging a few of my longer kills. And this is just what I (an average marksman) ended up with after a few games; a really skilled player could easily pull down kills up to or over 100 meters. This isn't frigging magic, people. This is just what 5.2 recoil is: a virtual non-factor. If you can't do this, it's not a Type 2A defect, it's a you defect.

    I can hold down the fire button confidently up to 35 meters, and you can add another 10 meters if I feel like mag-dumping. Past that range, yeah, I'm firing bursts only, but I'm doing the same thing with any other automatic weapon at that range. And that's all just at the weapon's worst range; inside 35 meters, it's a bloodbath machine.

    I trust this clears the matter up. And if anyone feels like moving the goalposts, by all means do so, because wherever you carry them, I'll be there waiting with another video. Let the good times roll.

    bran1986 said:
    It is also funny when people offer "proof" of it being OP they show themselves killing people from 10 meters away or a picture of all the medics playing tdm or playing conquest on Underground. None ever show clips or pics from Hamada or Panzerstorm despite this gun destroying people out to 50 meters with ease.
    Just for you.



    An unedited match on Hamada Conquest where I used the Type 2A for the first 20 minutes. Note that despite being on a bad team I was still by far the top player for either side. Skip to 20:30 if you just want to see where I finished up. Disregard the last 10 minutes, because that's when I got into a tank, and tanks just don't die so I never got to use the Type 2A anymore after that.
    Any player that is not complete blind, deaf and has any reaction ability at all would have killed you with ANY other weapon if they would have just reacted and shot back ...

    If you let yourself get sprayed that LONG without doing ANYTHING ... it has nothing to do with the weapon ...

    Even with the trash netcode and 1 framing, those kills would have at least taken several frames and MORE than enough time to react and kill the Type 2A user with ANY weapon ...

    That a weapon is "capable" of killing at a distance says nothing about being unbalanced or "good" at that distance ...
  • CHAMMOND1992
    1320 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    jroggs said:
    VincentNZ said:
    It has the highest recoil of anything we have in this game. 40-50m kills doe not happen with this gun. People seem to vastly overestimate distances in this game. 
    bran1986 said:
    [Replying to "in reality , it does , if u account the ultra low recoil , this gun can easily kill things at 40 50m with proper lead."]
    Lol, no it can't.
    Hawxxeye said:
    It is not THAT good.
    Its high mag count version has a pretty bad hipfire and accuracy which can make it so you the bullets just spread around the middle more often than not.
    All right, you twisted my arm. So how would you explain these ranged-tagged kills with distances from roughly 42 to 72 meters, then?



    I knocked these out just playing a few matches and spot-tagging a few of my longer kills. And this is just what I (an average marksman) ended up with after a few games; a really skilled player could easily pull down kills up to or over 100 meters. This isn't frigging magic, people. This is just what 5.2 recoil is: a virtual non-factor. If you can't do this, it's not a Type 2A defect, it's a you defect.

    I can hold down the fire button confidently up to 35 meters, and you can add another 10 meters if I feel like mag-dumping. Past that range, yeah, I'm firing bursts only, but I'm doing the same thing with any other automatic weapon at that range. And that's all just at the weapon's worst range; inside 35 meters, it's a bloodbath machine.

    I trust this clears the matter up. And if anyone feels like moving the goalposts, by all means do so, because wherever you carry them, I'll be there waiting with another video. Let the good times roll.

    bran1986 said:
    It is also funny when people offer "proof" of it being OP they show themselves killing people from 10 meters away or a picture of all the medics playing tdm or playing conquest on Underground. None ever show clips or pics from Hamada or Panzerstorm despite this gun destroying people out to 50 meters with ease.
    Just for you.



    An unedited match on Hamada Conquest where I used the Type 2A for the first 20 minutes. Note that despite being on a bad team I was still by far the top player for either side. Skip to 20:30 if you just want to see where I finished up. Disregard the last 10 minutes, because that's when I got into a tank, and tanks just don't die so I never got to use the Type 2A anymore after that.
    lol This is why I can't take any claim seriously on here.
  • VincentNZ
    3856 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    jroggs said:
    VincentNZ said:
    It has the highest recoil of anything we have in this game. 40-50m kills doe not happen with this gun. People seem to vastly overestimate distances in this game. 
    bran1986 said:
    [Replying to "in reality , it does , if u account the ultra low recoil , this gun can easily kill things at 40 50m with proper lead."]
    Lol, no it can't.
    Hawxxeye said:
    It is not THAT good.
    Its high mag count version has a pretty bad hipfire and accuracy which can make it so you the bullets just spread around the middle more often than not.
    All right, you twisted my arm. So how would you explain these ranged-tagged kills with distances from roughly 42 to 72 meters, then?



    I knocked these out just playing a few matches and spot-tagging a few of my longer kills. And this is just what I (an average marksman) ended up with after a few games; a really skilled player could easily pull down kills up to or over 100 meters. This isn't frigging magic, people. This is just what 5.2 recoil is: a virtual non-factor. If you can't do this, it's not a Type 2A defect, it's a you defect.

    I can hold down the fire button confidently up to 35 meters, and you can add another 10 meters if I feel like mag-dumping. Past that range, yeah, I'm firing bursts only, but I'm doing the same thing with any other automatic weapon at that range. And that's all just at the weapon's worst range; inside 35 meters, it's a bloodbath machine.

    I trust this clears the matter up. And if anyone feels like moving the goalposts, by all means do so, because wherever you carry them, I'll be there waiting with another video. Let the good times roll.

    bran1986 said:
    It is also funny when people offer "proof" of it being OP they show themselves killing people from 10 meters away or a picture of all the medics playing tdm or playing conquest on Underground. None ever show clips or pics from Hamada or Panzerstorm despite this gun destroying people out to 50 meters with ease.
    Just for you.



    An unedited match on Hamada Conquest where I used the Type 2A for the first 20 minutes. Note that despite being on a bad team I was still by far the top player for either side. Skip to 20:30 if you just want to see where I finished up. Disregard the last 10 minutes, because that's when I got into a tank, and tanks just don't die so I never got to use the Type 2A anymore after that.

    You want me to go over this individually? First kill you expend 40 bullets of your wrongly specced 2A. So, if we assume that it takes 10 hits or so at 50m you are not precisely hitting a lot, now are you? Second kill you are bursting with large intervals, because the recoil is too hard for you to control, and you still need 22 shots. Third kill you require your total of 51 shots to secure it. Fourth kill, again bursting, admittedly at two people it seems with an expenditure of 35 bullets.
    In the end it is all the same: You spend too much bullets of your high capacity magazine, to secure a kill, so that every other weapon would have been simply the better choice. And just to have the ranged capacity of likely an EMP you spec this OP weapon in a way that it also gives up it's hipfire niche. Well done. As console player you also have -25% pattern and 50% less Vrec, although I have no idea how this balances out, I do not know if you crouched in any of these clips, either, but that would add another multiplier.
    Good of you to have made a montage of 40m kills with the 2A, please also make one of Type 97 hipfire kills, for more anecdotal evidence. Mate, the gun is crap-tier at range. And range starts at 30m or so, and especially in the 50 round setup it is not precisely good below that either.
    A much more interesting montage would have been one of players using any weapon and killing medics with 2As at any range. But naturally this is not possible.
  • 19Romulus84
    77 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    As a medical weapon it is the best. It seems to me that such SOUMI before patch 5.2 was, however, much more deadly at much longer distances. He dealt much more damage than 2A and needed a lot less bullets to kill at every distance. Here we have a very high ROF and little recoil, because let's be serious this weapon has easy to control recoil "old" SOUMI had a lot more recoil.
  • TFBisquit
    1850 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    They lowered the recoil to compensate for the lower damage model. If they upped it most if not all weapons would be absolute trash to play with.
  • bran1986
    5827 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited January 14
    VincentNZ said:
    jroggs said:
    VincentNZ said:
    It has the highest recoil of anything we have in this game. 40-50m kills doe not happen with this gun. People seem to vastly overestimate distances in this game. 
    bran1986 said:
    [Replying to "in reality , it does , if u account the ultra low recoil , this gun can easily kill things at 40 50m with proper lead."]
    Lol, no it can't.
    Hawxxeye said:
    It is not THAT good.
    Its high mag count version has a pretty bad hipfire and accuracy which can make it so you the bullets just spread around the middle more often than not.
    All right, you twisted my arm. So how would you explain these ranged-tagged kills with distances from roughly 42 to 72 meters, then?



    I knocked these out just playing a few matches and spot-tagging a few of my longer kills. And this is just what I (an average marksman) ended up with after a few games; a really skilled player could easily pull down kills up to or over 100 meters. This isn't frigging magic, people. This is just what 5.2 recoil is: a virtual non-factor. If you can't do this, it's not a Type 2A defect, it's a you defect.

    I can hold down the fire button confidently up to 35 meters, and you can add another 10 meters if I feel like mag-dumping. Past that range, yeah, I'm firing bursts only, but I'm doing the same thing with any other automatic weapon at that range. And that's all just at the weapon's worst range; inside 35 meters, it's a bloodbath machine.

    I trust this clears the matter up. And if anyone feels like moving the goalposts, by all means do so, because wherever you carry them, I'll be there waiting with another video. Let the good times roll.

    bran1986 said:
    It is also funny when people offer "proof" of it being OP they show themselves killing people from 10 meters away or a picture of all the medics playing tdm or playing conquest on Underground. None ever show clips or pics from Hamada or Panzerstorm despite this gun destroying people out to 50 meters with ease.
    Just for you.



    An unedited match on Hamada Conquest where I used the Type 2A for the first 20 minutes. Note that despite being on a bad team I was still by far the top player for either side. Skip to 20:30 if you just want to see where I finished up. Disregard the last 10 minutes, because that's when I got into a tank, and tanks just don't die so I never got to use the Type 2A anymore after that.

    You want me to go over this individually? First kill you expend 40 bullets of your wrongly specced 2A. So, if we assume that it takes 10 hits or so at 50m you are not precisely hitting a lot, now are you? Second kill you are bursting with large intervals, because the recoil is too hard for you to control, and you still need 22 shots. Third kill you require your total of 51 shots to secure it. Fourth kill, again bursting, admittedly at two people it seems with an expenditure of 35 bullets.
    In the end it is all the same: You spend too much bullets of your high capacity magazine, to secure a kill, so that every other weapon would have been simply the better choice. And just to have the ranged capacity of likely an EMP you spec this OP weapon in a way that it also gives up it's hipfire niche. Well done. As console player you also have -25% pattern and 50% less Vrec, although I have no idea how this balances out, I do not know if you crouched in any of these clips, either, but that would add another multiplier.
    Good of you to have made a montage of 40m kills with the 2A, please also make one of Type 97 hipfire kills, for more anecdotal evidence. Mate, the gun is crap-tier at range. And range starts at 30m or so, and especially in the 50 round setup it is not precisely good below that either.
    A much more interesting montage would have been one of players using any weapon and killing medics with 2As at any range. But naturally this is not possible.
    You said it better than I could. Just look at how long it took to secure those kills, a few of those players were straight potatoes to sit there and allowed you to burst 50 rounds to get a kill. 
    Post edited by bran1986 on
  • VincentNZ
    3856 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    hkspm123 said:
    VincentNZ said:
    hkspm123 said:
    VincentNZ said:
    DaMutha1 said:
    You should die instantly if he shoots first in CQC
    The issue is that this gun easily outperforms almost everything below 40m range.

    It doesn't. It kills as fast as the Suomi, and both will lose against other SMGs starting 15-17m. Against other weapon classes, that do not have the hipfire advantage of SMGs, I daresay the magic spot is 20m. The moment you have to go ADS with this thing the ROF advantage is pretty much gone.
    in reality , it does , if u account the ultra low recoil , this gun can easily kill things at 40 50m with proper lead. 

    It isn't ultra-low at all. We are sitting at 0.9 Hrec, that is FAMAS level of recoil, added to that comes 0.115 SIPS per shot, plus the unknown pattern this weapon has. It has the highest recoil of anything we have in this game. 40-50m kills doe not happen with this gun. People seem to vastly overestimate distances in this game.
    remember that microburst reset recoil ? type2a can kill at 40m and so is famas with microburst .

    Yeah, well, any type of bursting will decrease your ROF, while still giving you the weapon with the highest recoil in the game. So you end up using a hard to control weapon with a low ROF, while you could just magdump any other SMG at the full ROF, higher damage and low recoil.
  • ninjapenquinuk
    2038 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    bran1986 said:
    VincentNZ said:
    jroggs said:
    VincentNZ said:
    It has the highest recoil of anything we have in this game. 40-50m kills doe not happen with this gun. People seem to vastly overestimate distances in this game. 
    bran1986 said:
    [Replying to "in reality , it does , if u account the ultra low recoil , this gun can easily kill things at 40 50m with proper lead."]
    Lol, no it can't.
    Hawxxeye said:
    It is not THAT good.
    Its high mag count version has a pretty bad hipfire and accuracy which can make it so you the bullets just spread around the middle more often than not.
    All right, you twisted my arm. So how would you explain these ranged-tagged kills with distances from roughly 42 to 72 meters, then?



    I knocked these out just playing a few matches and spot-tagging a few of my longer kills. And this is just what I (an average marksman) ended up with after a few games; a really skilled player could easily pull down kills up to or over 100 meters. This isn't frigging magic, people. This is just what 5.2 recoil is: a virtual non-factor. If you can't do this, it's not a Type 2A defect, it's a you defect.

    I can hold down the fire button confidently up to 35 meters, and you can add another 10 meters if I feel like mag-dumping. Past that range, yeah, I'm firing bursts only, but I'm doing the same thing with any other automatic weapon at that range. And that's all just at the weapon's worst range; inside 35 meters, it's a bloodbath machine.

    I trust this clears the matter up. And if anyone feels like moving the goalposts, by all means do so, because wherever you carry them, I'll be there waiting with another video. Let the good times roll.

    bran1986 said:
    It is also funny when people offer "proof" of it being OP they show themselves killing people from 10 meters away or a picture of all the medics playing tdm or playing conquest on Underground. None ever show clips or pics from Hamada or Panzerstorm despite this gun destroying people out to 50 meters with ease.
    Just for you.



    An unedited match on Hamada Conquest where I used the Type 2A for the first 20 minutes. Note that despite being on a bad team I was still by far the top player for either side. Skip to 20:30 if you just want to see where I finished up. Disregard the last 10 minutes, because that's when I got into a tank, and tanks just don't die so I never got to use the Type 2A anymore after that.

    You want me to go over this individually? First kill you expend 40 bullets of your wrongly specced 2A. So, if we assume that it takes 10 hits or so at 50m you are not precisely hitting a lot, now are you? Second kill you are bursting with large intervals, because the recoil is too hard for you to control, and you still need 22 shots. Third kill you require your total of 51 shots to secure it. Fourth kill, again bursting, admittedly at two people it seems with an expenditure of 35 bullets.
    In the end it is all the same: You spend too much bullets of your high capacity magazine, to secure a kill, so that every other weapon would have been simply the better choice. And just to have the ranged capacity of likely an EMP you spec this OP weapon in a way that it also gives up it's hipfire niche. Well done. As console player you also have -25% pattern and 50% less Vrec, although I have no idea how this balances out, I do not know if you crouched in any of these clips, either, but that would add another multiplier.
    Good of you to have made a montage of 40m kills with the 2A, please also make one of Type 97 hipfire kills, for more anecdotal evidence. Mate, the gun is crap-tier at range. And range starts at 30m or so, and especially in the 50 round setup it is not precisely good below that either.
    A much more interesting montage would have been one of players using any weapon and killing medics with 2As at any range. But naturally this is not possible.
    You said it better than I could. Just look at how long it took to secure those kills, a few of those players were straight potatoes to sit there and allowed you to burst 50 rounds to get a kill. 
    The issue could well be the dreaded TTD again.  What looks like a fairly long TTK to the attacker in the video is quite often the opposite experience for the poor guy on the wrong end it. a lot of times if you are lucky you may register one hit on you before you are dead.  Its not like you are stood there registering 4 / 5 / 6 hits and doing nothing about it. I mean some people may be that bad but most arent. I mean im still fairly often getting what seems like one shotted by an SLR from full health when we know it takes 2 hits and is a fairly slow ROF. And even a fairly long TTK is still what, a couple of seconds, which if you are caught in the open there isnt much you can do anyway. 
  • jroggs
    1001 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    And theeeeeeeere go the goalposts.

    You guys said the 2A wasn't that great in close quarters and got proven wrong. Then you said that it's not that great in short mid and got proven wrong. Then you said it could not get kills over 40 meters or accomplish anything on a larger map like Hamada, and you got proven wrong again.

    And it's the usual tired excuses. "You just got lucky over and over and over and over," "the enemies were probably just bad," "you used some bursts and that doesn't count because I say so," "you used a lot of bullets and that doesn't count either for some reason," and so on.

    Reminder: you made this about whether or not it could even achieve kills over 40 meters. If you regret making this argument now, then just say so. It's fine to admit you were wrong, but doubling/ tripling/ quadrupling/ quintupling down on being wrong accomplishes nothing.

    And for the hundreth time, you never even need to fight from this range. With up to five smokes, you can always close the distance to where this weapon gets really nasty. But when you get an opportunity on an enemy crossing open ground or not looking at you (neither of which are remotely rare situations), you can also drop a few bursts on them even at 50+ meters.

    The Type 2A isn't OP in the same way tanks and Pacific planes are. But it's just so clearly better than all other SMGs (if not all infantry primaries). Therein lies the problem. Before 5.2 came out, recoil mattered. But DICE made every gun as easy to use as possible for new or bad players they thought were being chased off, so now it's all about magazine size and rate of fire, and the 2A delivers both in spades without drawbacks.

    @VincentNZ Regarding the console vs PC thing, all I have to say is that like most Battlefield players I play on console and this is the hand we've been dealt. The fact that DICE tries to keep everything consistent between all these systems is a problem in its own right.
  • jroggs
    1001 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    (Quote)
    The issue could well be the dreaded TTD again.  What looks like a fairly long TTK to the attacker in the video is quite often the opposite experience for the poor guy on the wrong end it. a lot of times if you are lucky you may register one hit on you before you are dead.  Its not like you are stood there registering 4 / 5 / 6 hits and doing nothing about it. I mean some people may be that bad but most arent. I mean im still fairly often getting what seems like one shotted by an SLR from full health when we know it takes 2 hits and is a fairly slow ROF. And even a fairly long TTK is still what, a couple of seconds, which if you are caught in the open there isnt much you can do anyway. 

    That is a part of it. By the time you realize you're getting shot, your reflexes kick in, and you start reacting to fight back or get out of the killzone, it's still often too late unless your attacker completely potatoes out. That was the case in most instances of my longer kills on initially unaware enemies.
  • VincentNZ
    3856 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    jroggs said:
    And theeeeeeeere go the goalposts.

    You guys said the 2A wasn't that great in close quarters and got proven wrong. Then you said that it's not that great in short mid and got proven wrong. Then you said it could not get kills over 40 meters or accomplish anything on a larger map like Hamada, and you got proven wrong again.

    And it's the usual tired excuses. "You just got lucky over and over and over and over," "the enemies were probably just bad," "you used some bursts and that doesn't count because I say so," "you used a lot of bullets and that doesn't count either for some reason," and so on.

    Reminder: you made this about whether or not it could even achieve kills over 40 meters. If you regret making this argument now, then just say so. It's fine to admit you were wrong, but doubling/ tripling/ quadrupling/ quintupling down on being wrong accomplishes nothing.

    And for the hundreth time, you never even need to fight from this range. With up to five smokes, you can always close the distance to where this weapon gets really nasty. But when you get an opportunity on an enemy crossing open ground or not looking at you (neither of which are remotely rare situations), you can also drop a few bursts on them even at 50+ meters.

    The Type 2A isn't OP in the same way tanks and Pacific planes are. But it's just so clearly better than all other SMGs (if not all infantry primaries). Therein lies the problem. Before 5.2 came out, recoil mattered. But DICE made every gun as easy to use as possible for new or bad players they thought were being chased off, so now it's all about magazine size and rate of fire, and the 2A delivers both in spades without drawbacks.

    @VincentNZ Regarding the console vs PC thing, all I have to say is that like most Battlefield players I play on console and this is the hand we've been dealt. The fact that DICE tries to keep everything consistent between all these systems is a problem in its own right.

    Mate, I never said the 2A wasn't good at close quarters. I said it does that one thing extremely well, if you spec it correctly. Otherwise it is a slightly worse 50 round Suomi. I said it is overall not a very good weapon, because it only works in 50% of all engagements which is pretty awful stat.
    How does one get proven wrong when everything that is put up as arguments are feels, a low understanding of game mechanics and semantics. Yes you can get hipfire kills with the Type 97, does that mean it is good at that? I probably have around 50 of them, which is a relevant amount of my game experience and could have made an epic montage that makes it look like it is the godking of close range. It is still an ungun, just like the 2A is still an ungun when used at 40m, if you consider that long range and your clips prove exactly that.
    The bullet economy is crap, the recoil is crap, the accuracy is crap. Everything it is good at, the hipfire, the DPS, the ROF it loses when you spec right, just to be able to ADS. At that point everything else is simply better.
    It is not the best medic gun at all either. It is a sidegrade Suomi or Tommy, more precisely, and the only benefit it has is the better bullet economy over the Suomi and Tommy, when specced left, where you can get two kills realistically in one mag at 5m or so, which is relevant with the many point blank environments this game has. So that is at 20m and below. Keep in mind that we are still taking a difference of 4-5 frames if we compare the regular SMG picks, in an engagement range where reaction time/positioning matters at least as much as the weapon choice. And as soon as we leave the 15m mark the rest will catch up fast. As soon as you have to go ADS, you will lose your advantages.
    If you are using the 50 round, there is simply no reason to use it over the Tommy or Suomi. I would also argue that there is no reason to use it at all, as weapons like the Type 100 or EMP will simply outperform this weapon at 15m+ and in it's own niche the environmental factors, that you can not fully control can lead you to losing engagements.
  • ninjapenquinuk
    2038 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    When people go on about one weapon being better than another at X range or whatever we are usually talking milliseconds or at most a second in difference in TTK.  In game that is basically meaningless.  So what if one gun takes 5 BTK and another 6 if that 6th bullet follows 0.1 seconds after the 5th. 
  • CHAMMOND1992
    1320 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    jroggs said:
    And theeeeeeeere go the goalposts.

    You guys said the 2A wasn't that great in close quarters and got proven wrong. Then you said that it's not that great in short mid and got proven wrong. Then you said it could not get kills over 40 meters or accomplish anything on a larger map like Hamada, and you got proven wrong again.

    And it's the usual tired excuses. "You just got lucky over and over and over and over," "the enemies were probably just bad," "you used some bursts and that doesn't count because I say so," "you used a lot of bullets and that doesn't count either for some reason," and so on.

    Reminder: you made this about whether or not it could even achieve kills over 40 meters. If you regret making this argument now, then just say so. It's fine to admit you were wrong, but doubling/ tripling/ quadrupling/ quintupling down on being wrong accomplishes nothing.

    And for the hundreth time, you never even need to fight from this range. With up to five smokes, you can always close the distance to where this weapon gets really nasty. But when you get an opportunity on an enemy crossing open ground or not looking at you (neither of which are remotely rare situations), you can also drop a few bursts on them even at 50+ meters.

    The Type 2A isn't OP in the same way tanks and Pacific planes are. But it's just so clearly better than all other SMGs (if not all infantry primaries). Therein lies the problem. Before 5.2 came out, recoil mattered. But DICE made every gun as easy to use as possible for new or bad players they thought were being chased off, so now it's all about magazine size and rate of fire, and the 2A delivers both in spades without drawbacks.

    @VincentNZ Regarding the console vs PC thing, all I have to say is that like most Battlefield players I play on console and this is the hand we've been dealt. The fact that DICE tries to keep everything consistent between all these systems is a problem in its own right.
    You boasted about what the Type 2A is capable of from the average marksman. You showed video, proved yourself completely off base, then downplay your own rhetoric as if now its simply whether you CAN get kills from that distance as opposed to doing if effectively. You thinking someone can effectively kill up to 100 meters with it is proof you have no clue what you are talking about, as if the video wasn't enough. Why does anyone have to break down that using 90% of your 50 round mag and having to burst fire at distance, proves the inherent limitations of the Type 2A, which make it inferior to the EMP or MP40 at range?
  • ninjapenquinuk
    2038 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited January 14
    jroggs said:
    And theeeeeeeere go the goalposts.

    You guys said the 2A wasn't that great in close quarters and got proven wrong. Then you said that it's not that great in short mid and got proven wrong. Then you said it could not get kills over 40 meters or accomplish anything on a larger map like Hamada, and you got proven wrong again.

    And it's the usual tired excuses. "You just got lucky over and over and over and over," "the enemies were probably just bad," "you used some bursts and that doesn't count because I say so," "you used a lot of bullets and that doesn't count either for some reason," and so on.

    Reminder: you made this about whether or not it could even achieve kills over 40 meters. If you regret making this argument now, then just say so. It's fine to admit you were wrong, but doubling/ tripling/ quadrupling/ quintupling down on being wrong accomplishes nothing.

    And for the hundreth time, you never even need to fight from this range. With up to five smokes, you can always close the distance to where this weapon gets really nasty. But when you get an opportunity on an enemy crossing open ground or not looking at you (neither of which are remotely rare situations), you can also drop a few bursts on them even at 50+ meters.

    The Type 2A isn't OP in the same way tanks and Pacific planes are. But it's just so clearly better than all other SMGs (if not all infantry primaries). Therein lies the problem. Before 5.2 came out, recoil mattered. But DICE made every gun as easy to use as possible for new or bad players they thought were being chased off, so now it's all about magazine size and rate of fire, and the 2A delivers both in spades without drawbacks.

    @VincentNZ Regarding the console vs PC thing, all I have to say is that like most Battlefield players I play on console and this is the hand we've been dealt. The fact that DICE tries to keep everything consistent between all these systems is a problem in its own right.
    You boasted about what the Type 2A is capable of from the average marksman. You showed video, proved yourself completely off base, then downplay your own rhetoric as if now its simply whether you CAN get kills from that distance as opposed to doing if effectively. You thinking someone can effectively kill up to 100 meters with it is proof you have no clue what you are talking about, as if the video wasn't enough. Why does anyone have to break down that using 90% of your 50 round mag and having to burst fire at distance, proves the inherent limitations of the Type 2A, which make it inferior to the EMP or MP40 at range?
    I dont think anyone is saying the 2A is the best at longer ranges, but it is eminently very usable at more than just really CQ.   The vast majority of gunfights in BF are not duels where both players are ready and the quickest and most accurate will win. No, most gunfights will be one person catching the other person totally unawares.  The video shows that as well as the 2A totally shredding people instantly at close range it can also kill people at longer ranges before the other person can effectively react. It may have a lower TTK at 75m than say an STG and it may take a whole mag but if it can still kill an unaware person in 2.5 secs then what chance does that guy on the receiving end have? Now this will be map and mode dependent.  The 2A is going to no where near as effective at range on Hamada playing Breakthrough, but in chaotic modes like conquest where enemies can be anywhere then the 2A can be very very effective.
  • CHAMMOND1992
    1320 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited January 14
    jroggs said:
    And theeeeeeeere go the goalposts.

    You guys said the 2A wasn't that great in close quarters and got proven wrong. Then you said that it's not that great in short mid and got proven wrong. Then you said it could not get kills over 40 meters or accomplish anything on a larger map like Hamada, and you got proven wrong again.

    And it's the usual tired excuses. "You just got lucky over and over and over and over," "the enemies were probably just bad," "you used some bursts and that doesn't count because I say so," "you used a lot of bullets and that doesn't count either for some reason," and so on.

    Reminder: you made this about whether or not it could even achieve kills over 40 meters. If you regret making this argument now, then just say so. It's fine to admit you were wrong, but doubling/ tripling/ quadrupling/ quintupling down on being wrong accomplishes nothing.

    And for the hundreth time, you never even need to fight from this range. With up to five smokes, you can always close the distance to where this weapon gets really nasty. But when you get an opportunity on an enemy crossing open ground or not looking at you (neither of which are remotely rare situations), you can also drop a few bursts on them even at 50+ meters.

    The Type 2A isn't OP in the same way tanks and Pacific planes are. But it's just so clearly better than all other SMGs (if not all infantry primaries). Therein lies the problem. Before 5.2 came out, recoil mattered. But DICE made every gun as easy to use as possible for new or bad players they thought were being chased off, so now it's all about magazine size and rate of fire, and the 2A delivers both in spades without drawbacks.

    @VincentNZ Regarding the console vs PC thing, all I have to say is that like most Battlefield players I play on console and this is the hand we've been dealt. The fact that DICE tries to keep everything consistent between all these systems is a problem in its own right.
    You boasted about what the Type 2A is capable of from the average marksman. You showed video, proved yourself completely off base, then downplay your own rhetoric as if now its simply whether you CAN get kills from that distance as opposed to doing if effectively. You thinking someone can effectively kill up to 100 meters with it is proof you have no clue what you are talking about, as if the video wasn't enough. Why does anyone have to break down that using 90% of your 50 round mag and having to burst fire at distance, proves the inherent limitations of the Type 2A, which make it inferior to the EMP or MP40 at range?
    I dont think anyone is saying the 2A is the best at longer ranges, but it is eminently very usable at more than just really CQ.   The vast majority of gunfights in BF are not duels where both players are ready and the quickest and most accurate will win. No, most gunfights will be one person catching the other person totally unawares.  The video shows that as well as the 2A totally shredding people instantly at close range it can also kill people at longer ranges before the other person can effectively react. It may have a lower TTK at 75m than say an STG and it may take a whole mag but if it can still kill an unaware person in 2.5 secs then what chance does that guy on the receiving end have? Now this will be map and mode dependent.  The 2A is going to no where near as effective at range on Hamada playing Breakthrough, but in chaotic modes like conquest where enemies can be anywhere then the 2A can be very very effective.
    We clearly have different standards to what we deem an effective range. 2.5 seconds to me is not effective at all and that is actually plenty of time to react. Not to mention all of his long range clips to more than 2.5 seconds.
  • bran1986
    5827 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    (Quote)
    I dont think anyone is saying the 2A is the best at longer ranges, but it is eminently very usable at more than just really CQ.   The vast majority of gunfights in BF are not duels where both players are ready and the quickest and most accurate will win. No, most gunfights will be one person catching the other person totally unawares.  The video shows that as well as the 2A totally shredding people instantly at close range it can also kill people at longer ranges before the other person can effectively react. It may have a lower TTK at 75m than say an STG and it may take a whole mag but if it can still kill an unaware person in 2.5 secs then what chance does that guy on the receiving end have? Now this will be map and mode dependent.  The 2A is going to no where near as effective at range on Hamada playing Breakthrough, but in chaotic modes like conquest where enemies can be anywhere then the 2A can be very very effective.

    What you just said can apply to every single gun in this game. 2.5 seconds is an insane amount of time to kill someone in a shooter and more than enough time to react.Just because the 2A CAN kill at that range doesn't make it good or even viable at that range.

    As for conquest and enemies being anywhere, that kind of the point @VincentNZ has been making. This game is full of wide open maps with long sight lines. Would you rather have a gun that is great for 15 meters and is crap outside of that or a gun that is decent inside 15 meters and excels for another 50+ meters? I'm going to take a gun that gives me a chance in all relevant ranges over a gun that is a one trick pony. I would gladly and happily give the 2A to the assault for the STG44 or Ribey and the support for the Madsen.
  • jroggs
    1001 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    VincentNZ said:

    Mate, I never said the 2A wasn't good at close quarters. 
    Oh, I know. You just have a strange idea about what the extent of those "close quarters" is.
    VincentNZ said at the beginning of another thread about the Type 2A:
    It really isn't good. It is just very good at 10m and that's it.

    ...People are simply not knowing stats of these weapons. There are TTK charts up as well and with the methods they use, this weapon will become non-lethal at 15m.
    Moving on from... that.
    VincentNZ said:
    I said it does that one thing extremely well, if you spec it correctly. Otherwise it is a slightly worse 50 round Suomi. I said it is overall not a very good weapon, because it only works in 50% of all engagements which is pretty awful stat.
    How does one get proven wrong when everything that is put up as arguments are feels, a low understanding of game mechanics and semantics. Yes you can get hipfire kills with the Type 97, does that mean it is good at that? I probably have around 50 of them, which is a relevant amount of my game experience and could have made an epic montage that makes it look like it is the godking of close range. It is still an ungun, just like the 2A is still an ungun when used at 40m, if you consider that long range and your clips prove exactly that.
    The bullet economy is crap, the recoil is crap, the accuracy is crap. Everything it is good at, the hipfire, the DPS, the ROF it loses when you spec right, just to be able to ADS. At that point everything else is simply better.
    It is not the best medic gun at all either. It is a sidegrade Suomi or Tommy, more precisely, and the only benefit it has is the better bullet economy over the Suomi and Tommy, when specced left, where you can get two kills realistically in one mag at 5m or so, which is relevant with the many point blank environments this game has. So that is at 20m and below. Keep in mind that we are still taking a difference of 4-5 frames if we compare the regular SMG picks, in an engagement range where reaction time/positioning matters at least as much as the weapon choice. And as soon as we leave the 15m mark the rest will catch up fast. As soon as you have to go ADS, you will lose your advantages.
    If you are using the 50 round, there is simply no reason to use it over the Tommy or Suomi. I would also argue that there is no reason to use it at all, as weapons like the Type 100 or EMP will simply outperform this weapon at 15m+ and in it's own niche the environmental factors, that you can not fully control can lead you to losing engagements.
    I have it spec'd full right for magazine size and ADS. You don't need hipfire specs to use hipfire effectively. It works just fine.

    You have this made-up "only 50% of engagements" argument based on nothing that you frequently bring up, but I don't think you've once acknowledged that lots of smoke and unlimited heals exist for the Medic. Whatever you think the cut-off is for the Type 2A's effective range is, you can very easily dictate that range. The way some of you guys talk about Battlefield V, you'd think the only way to use guns is to move head-on into firefights and just stand and trade damage. I think there's a case to be made that this weapon wouldn't be as good were it in the Assault or Support class due to the finite healing and lack of smoke, but it is what it is.

    (Did anyone claim you couldn't get hipfire kills with the Type 97? We're talking about your claim that the Type 2A couldn't get kills at 40-50 meters. Yeah, this Type 97 thing you're on about has nothing to do with anything.)

    The bullet economy could have been a problem before the 5.2 ammo increase, but we've only seen the weapon in the 5.2 game. 255 rounds is a lot, and if I you occasionally have to dump 40 rounds to get a kill, that still just 16% of your total. Not really a problem. And with 51 round in the mag, the economy there is as good as you can ask for, easily capable of wiping out an entire squad before needing to reload. As for accuracy and recoil, they're fine, and no amount of times you bring up the horizontal recoil stat will change the fact that it works just fine in practice. The Suomi is only as good or worse no matter how you comparitively spec it, while the Thompson and Type 100 are just worse. And the EMP? You gotta be kidding.

    Before the Type 2A dropped, my Medic KDR had been holding steady at 2.25 for a long time. With a week and a half of the Type 2A existing, that KDR is now 2.37. That is a ridiculous jump for 12 days, and it's not because I suddenly got substantially more skilled. My KPM is also substantially higher with the Type 2A than any other SMG. Come to think of it, I don't think you've ever mentioned how this weapon actually plays for you. Have you used it? Does it feel as bad to you as you think it looks on paper?

    Regardless, it's guaranteed this gun is seeing a rebalance (i.e. nerf) in the very next update. Agree or not, this weapon is already legendary across the community for being too much better than everything else.
  • jroggs
    1001 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    jroggs said:
    And theeeeeeeere go the goalposts.

    You guys said the 2A wasn't that great in close quarters and got proven wrong. Then you said that it's not that great in short mid and got proven wrong. Then you said it could not get kills over 40 meters or accomplish anything on a larger map like Hamada, and you got proven wrong again.

    And it's the usual tired excuses. "You just got lucky over and over and over and over," "the enemies were probably just bad," "you used some bursts and that doesn't count because I say so," "you used a lot of bullets and that doesn't count either for some reason," and so on.

    Reminder: you made this about whether or not it could even achieve kills over 40 meters. If you regret making this argument now, then just say so. It's fine to admit you were wrong, but doubling/ tripling/ quadrupling/ quintupling down on being wrong accomplishes nothing.

    And for the hundreth time, you never even need to fight from this range. With up to five smokes, you can always close the distance to where this weapon gets really nasty. But when you get an opportunity on an enemy crossing open ground or not looking at you (neither of which are remotely rare situations), you can also drop a few bursts on them even at 50+ meters.

    The Type 2A isn't OP in the same way tanks and Pacific planes are. But it's just so clearly better than all other SMGs (if not all infantry primaries). Therein lies the problem. Before 5.2 came out, recoil mattered. But DICE made every gun as easy to use as possible for new or bad players they thought were being chased off, so now it's all about magazine size and rate of fire, and the 2A delivers both in spades without drawbacks.

    @VincentNZ Regarding the console vs PC thing, all I have to say is that like most Battlefield players I play on console and this is the hand we've been dealt. The fact that DICE tries to keep everything consistent between all these systems is a problem in its own right.
    You boasted about what the Type 2A is capable of from the average marksman. You showed video, proved yourself completely off base, then downplay your own rhetoric as if now its simply whether you CAN get kills from that distance as opposed to doing if effectively. You thinking someone can effectively kill up to 100 meters with it is proof you have no clue what you are talking about, as if the video wasn't enough. Why does anyone have to break down that using 90% of your 50 round mag and having to burst fire at distance, proves the inherent limitations of the Type 2A, which make it inferior to the EMP or MP40 at range?
    Read the thread before telling me "you have no clue what you are talking about."
  • jroggs
    1001 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    When people go on about one weapon being better than another at X range or whatever we are usually talking milliseconds or at most a second in difference in TTK.  In game that is basically meaningless.  So what if one gun takes 5 BTK and another 6 if that 6th bullet follows 0.1 seconds after the 5th. 
    A tenth of a second is a lifetime in when it comes to TTK. Semi-literally.

    You're right that the tactical advantage of shooting first is the decisive factor most of the time, but that's not relevant when you're comparing weapons with a similar purpose.
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