If Dice wants their next game to be successful they must listen to hardcore players

Comments

  • Lahoo_Eckbert
    1319 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    I've been playing BF since bc2 and never played hardcore. Never felt the need to as BF is tactical enough with pretty fast TTK and a player base prone to camping even with an informative HUD.

    So no, Dice doesn't have to listen to 5-10% of the playerbase. Would be cool if they could please everyone, but let's be honest. HC players aren't the priority. Far far from it.
  • NN_Buzz12
    235 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    I've been playing BF since bc2 and never played hardcore. Never felt the need to as BF is tactical enough with pretty fast TTK and a player base prone to camping even with an informative HUD.

    So no, Dice doesn't have to listen to 5-10% of the playerbase. Would be cool if they could please everyone, but let's be honest. HC players aren't the priority. Far far from it.

    Please provide how you arrived at A hardcore player base at 5-10%. Oh you can’t.
  • Carbonic
    1949 postsMember, Moderator, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Moderator
    I have not seen any official or reliable numbers of the "hardcore community"
    Stuff like:
    • How many would transition from regular to hardcore
    • How many new players would arrive
    It all seems to be just guesswork.

    That ofc. doesn't distract from the fact that it would be nice to give the hardcore people what they want. It however also begs some questions if there are enough people that it justifies the resources to make it, how many resources it would take to make, and if it would hurt the player base of the regular game too much.
  • Forkbeard84
    1854 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    The hardcore players need to be very careful what they wish for.

    Games like BF1 with all its casual elements keep casual guys like me playing. Casual guys like me get killed all the time by hardcore guys who use me to pad their glorious K/D ratios.

    Hardcore players should appreciate the fact they’ve got casual people to kill in a game.

    If a game is pure hardcore, casual players wont be in the game and it will become one big hardcore circle jerk.
  • Loqtrall
    12468 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    NLBartmaN wrote: »
    (Quote)
    I do really not care how it is called, if it is called hard lite or something else.
    You will keep on twisting words, trying to overflow us with far too many words, nitpicking on details, use that 1 example of why something it is (because there are multiple examples that it is), is not according to you.

    It feels terrible to me and lots of others and should never come back.
    Main game should be less hardcore lite/more casual (or whatever you want to call it) and there should be a seperate hardcore "gamemode" for the few people that actually like that.

    I'm not twisting a damn thing. I'm responding to exactly what people are saying and claiming. If you have some aversion to reading on a platform where literally all that is done is reading - that's your own issue. And let me remind you that all of you people have been directly responding to my initial comment I made in this thread, not the other way around. You either wanted an argument and you hear what I have to say, or you're just attempting to tell me off for personal reasons which I don't give one salty ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ about.

    And sorry, but there's a difference between something feeling awful or different to you, and claiming the game is legitimately something it's not.

    There's a difference between preferring how one game approached mechanics over another, and insisting the other game is something it isn't.

    The main game isn't hardcore at all. Not in comparison to past games, not in comparison to HC mode in past games, not in comparison to legitimate hardcore shooters, and not in comparison to any given casual AAA shooters out there. The fact you and others didn't start playing these games until literally the most hand-holding and over-casualized point in the franchise's history, and that's all you know, doesn't change that.

    It can be something you dislike - everyone's entitled to their opinions - but whether or not a game is "hardcore" or "hardcore lite" is not a matter of "feeling". There is an objective difference between hardcore and non hardcore shooters, and insisting one is "Hardcore lite" would be insisting its at least "half hardcore" or is directly comparable to hardcore.

    Nothing anyone has said in this thread, whether it be about a singular mechanic or a collective of mechanics and features and overall gameplay, has indicated what exactly makes BF5 a "hardcore lite game" or an fps game akin to hardcore fps games outside of essentially saying "because I feel that way specifically because the past 3/4 BF games are all I've played".

    If anything, that says substantially more about THOSE few recent games rather than indicating BF5 has moved closer to hardcore fps gameplay than BF games should. Those few games have gameplay and mechanics that make the overall experience so hyper-accessible and over-casualized that even if a BF game is MARGINALLY more difficult to approach in that regard - you people claim the game is "hardcore lite" despite it just being more akin to your average fps game out there today.

    Unfortunately for some here, there's a stark difference between "feeling"/"perceiving" and the reality of the situation. There's as difference between how much of an outlier the most recent 4 games have been in terms of how these games are designed and people basing ALL of BF on just those games - and BF5 legitimately being a "hardcore lite" BF game.

    FPS games aren't magically "hardcore" merely because they're marginally not as accessible or easy to approach as your preferred or first fps game, regardless of what people perceive to be the norm.
  • ninjapenquinuk
    2247 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    EA and DICE missed their chance to have an absolutely awesome game of epic proportions.
    Why they decided to make a sanitised version of  WW2, I fail to understand.
    There were so many battles that could have been added instead of the made up ones, I really think they have lost the plot.
    And the most insulting thing of all, after announcing the end of bf5 on the day of VE day, they release an elite pay for unlock.
    Its comments like this that shows how fickle many players are. If Devastation was called 'Stalingrad' or Hamada called 'Alamein' the game wouldn't have magically been better. And those moaning about the lack of 'real' battles are fine being on the US side using an STG
  • Trokey66
    9160 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    It is clear that he is incapable of understanding why the term 'Hardcore Lite' is used as he can only deal in absolutes.

    He is also incapable or unwilling to accept or even acknowledge, that some people have only played on console. How can people who have never experianced a game, use that experience in any comparison they make?
  • Trokey66
    9160 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 10
    Loqtrall wrote: »
    I just find it funny that some people actually think BF5 is a more "hardcore" experience. I'd love to hear what they thought of the first 5 titles in the franchise, or actual hardcore, quasi-sim shooters like Insurgency or Hell Let Loose.

    BF5 is just as much an arcadey walk in the park as any other recent title.

    This is a riminder of his first post that kicked off this whole debate to which I responded.......

    "When compared to the last 3 titles at least, it is not difficult to see why BFV is often referred to as 'Hardcore lite' by many."

    And so began the whole sorry saga where he steadfastly refused to grasp the concept of 'Hardcore Lite'.
  • NightSkyn3t
    120 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    SirBobdk said:
    The only hardcore thing that should remain in the next battlefield is the lack of 3d spotting it's way better because you can use more different strats 
    (for those who will say that there will be a visibility problem you won't suffer from this if you play a lot so you will take habits of spotting hiding spots automatically you don't need a good eyesight for this)

    Never was a fan of spotting, but the more they improve the graphic the harder it gets seeing the enemy on PC. It turns the gameplay into hide and seek. So i have change my mind and would like BF1 spotting back.
    You don't need a good eyesight to spot ennemies you can ear them or expect someone to be on some spots when you know the map
    M-A-P K-N-O-W-L-E-D-G-E  is more important than eyesight
  • Trokey66
    9160 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    (Quote)
    You don't need a good eyesight to spot ennemies you can ear them or expect someone to be on some spots when you know the map
    M-A-P K-N-O-W-L-E-D-G-E  is more important than eyesight

    Knowing where someone might hide and knowing if someone is hiding there are 2 different things......
  • SirBobdk
    5318 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    SirBobdk said:
    The only hardcore thing that should remain in the next battlefield is the lack of 3d spotting it's way better because you can use more different strats 
    (for those who will say that there will be a visibility problem you won't suffer from this if you play a lot so you will take habits of spotting hiding spots automatically you don't need a good eyesight for this)

    Never was a fan of spotting, but the more they improve the graphic the harder it gets seeing the enemy on PC. It turns the gameplay into hide and seek. So i have change my mind and would like BF1 spotting back.
    You don't need a good eyesight to spot ennemies you can ear them or expect someone to be on some spots when you know the map
    M-A-P K-N-O-W-L-E-D-G-E  is more important than eyesight
    Maybe, but for me its a question of the funfactor and previous BF games with 3D spotting and better visiability was just more fun to play. I know how to play every single map and where people use to hide but it dont make it more fun to play. It just takes more time and makes the game more boring.
  • Lahoo_Eckbert
    1319 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    NN_Buzz12 said:
    I've been playing BF since bc2 and never played hardcore. Never felt the need to as BF is tactical enough with pretty fast TTK and a player base prone to camping even with an informative HUD.

    So no, Dice doesn't have to listen to 5-10% of the playerbase. Would be cool if they could please everyone, but let's be honest. HC players aren't the priority. Far far from it.

    Please provide how you arrived at A hardcore player base at 5-10%. Oh you can’t.

    Common sense.  I might be wrong of course, but I don't think I can be far off either. 
    I also wouldn't be surprised if dedicated hardcore player base was much lower than what I said it is.


  • GenCuster
    211 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 11
    NN_Buzz12 said:
    I've been playing BF since bc2 and never played hardcore. Never felt the need to as BF is tactical enough with pretty fast TTK and a player base prone to camping even with an informative HUD.

    So no, Dice doesn't have to listen to 5-10% of the playerbase. Would be cool if they could please everyone, but let's be honest. HC players aren't the priority. Far far from it.

    Please provide how you arrived at A hardcore player base at 5-10%. Oh you can’t.

    Common sense.  I might be wrong of course, but I don't think I can be far off either. 
    I also wouldn't be surprised if dedicated hardcore player base was much lower than what I said it is.

    ___________________________________________________
    And you’re probably wrong....
    Bf4 has a large amount of active HC servers....
    Bf3 the same as....
    Even Bf2bc has active HC servers.
    The only ones I can’t get access to are those of BF1...probably also because of the bad server access system.... (too many parameters to set)
    If you’ve only play normally mode , and you don’t like it...Okay, but that doesn’t mean others don’t like it or it’s pointless.



  • Loqtrall
    12468 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 11
    The problem is that calling a game "hardcore lite" isnt self descriptive at all. And you constantly repeating your claims about what you think it means won't change that or turn your opinion into a fact. Me and other users here mentioned multiple times how the word was used and explained why it is reasonable to use it in this way.

    Whenever such terms are used they are relative to something. Your baseline isn't any better than the one most people use. And yours isn't any more intuitive than the one I mentioned. You keep saying that people are just mentioning their opinion and that your way of looking at it (and hence also your baseline) is somehow the objective one. But that's not the case, it's just as much of an opinion. You just don't seem to see the non-objective assumptions you made yourself.
    Comparing it to "more" isn't more objective or intuitive either. If I test drive an ebike and then state "damn this is pretty fast" then I don't imply that I think that this bike is pretty fast compared to all vehicles I encounter on the road. Its obvious that I state this in comparison to other bikes (maybe even in comparison to only non electric bikes). And the same concept applies here. As I said nobody (or at least I haven't seen anybody) claims that bfv is a hardcore shooter.

    The same applies to hardcore mode of recent bf titles. The term was used in exactly the same way. Hardcore mode just means "more hardcore than vanilla bf", not "hyper realistic war experience". Fact of the matter is, that bfv has a decent amount of important mechanics, that influence the feel of the gameplay a lot, that are handled in a way that the hardcore mode of previous titles handled it. Hence "hardcore lite". If you think that is not enough than why weren't you here in the bf4 or bf1 forums complaining about the hardcore modes of these games not actually being "hardcore" enough?
    You basically blame people for using terms in the way that they were defined in a game, in order to describe that same game. We had hardcore more in previous titles and now we have something that has certain aspect of that. But now don't you dare trying to express this resemblance by using the terms used in this very game for years....

    See the thing you're missing is that we have an actual genre of hardcore fps games to objectively compare to. We also have hardcore mode to objectively compare to.

    What I've said has nothing to do with my opinion and everything to do with factual comparisons between BF5 and Hardcore shooters/Hardcore mode in the face of people who are insisting BF5 is too hardcore for a BF game. I haven't mentioned my "baseline", I've only mentioned other games in comparison, mechanically, to BF5 in as objective a fashion I could. I haven't even mentioned whether I personally felt some aspects of BF5 "went too far" or not, I've merely stated that in direct and objective comparison, BF5 does not compare at all to actual HC shooters nor HC mode in past games.

    That has nothing to do with what I personally think. That's a truthful comparison between games that in attempting to keep my opinions out of, because I enjoy both casual/arcadey and hardcore/milsim shooters all the same.

    I never even insisted anyone said BF is flatout a "hardcore game". This entire time I've used nothing but "hardcore lite", "more hardcore", "akin to hardcore", etc to describe the argument people were making. Which is exactly what was happening, and exactly what continues to happen as later in this comment you attempt to directly liken BF5 to HC mode in past games.

    This isn't about "my baseline", this is about how things are defined in the real world - in an industry where the type of game someone is playing is not dictated by "perception based on limited experience". In a world where history isn't negligible and forgotten merely because you didn't experience it.

    Now let's move on to your last paragraph:

    You want to talk about facts? You're factually wrong about BF5 in comparison to HC mode in past games. What, I ask, mechanics in BF5 are handled in the way they are in HC mode in past games?

    Spotting isn't, the TTK isn't, the HUD isn't, friendly fire isn't, squad spawning isn't, mag dumping isn't, health regen isn't, 3rd person camera isn't, the minimap isn't.

    WHAT was handled in the same way as hardcore mode? What mechanics or collective of mechanics in BF5 make it akin to how those things are handled in a hardcore fps game? I've literally asked variations of this question FIVE TIMES and have gotten no concrete or straightforward answers outside of "because I feel that way because I didn't start playing until BF3".

    LOL and why do you assume I wasn't on these forums making complaints about Bf4 or BF1s hardcore mode? I made plenty of complaints about the fact you could still bring up the full map in BF4 HC and see 3d/2d spotting. I made plenty of criticisms towards BF1s approach to hardcore being specifically 200% firearm damage instead of 60% health. Lmao, one shouldn't post assuming to know my long-time posting history here when they obviously don't.

    The fact of the matter is BF5 is not similar in any way to hardcore mode in past games. The most you can say is we specifically don't have spammable 3d spotting - but 3d spotting is still rife in this game - and that health doesn't fully regen, but health does regen and you can carry around a spare med pack that full heals you. wherein HC mode there was no health regen without a Medic at all.

    If THAT is what you're basing your claims on, then the "hardcore lite" argument is weaker than I initially thought.

    Hardcore has indeed been a term used in BF for years - but BF5 is not similar at all, it approaches no mechanics in the way HC mode did in past games - thus using it to half-describe BF5s gameplay is nonsense.

    That's essentially saying that any gameplay mechanic that is even MARGINALLY less accessible or casualized than what's in Normal mode in those past games causes BF5 to be "more hardcore". That's absolute nonsense. There's a difference between a mechanic being different in design and functionality to another game, and that mechanic being akin to what we'd see in HC mode in older games.
  • Loqtrall
    12468 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    It is clear that he is incapable of understanding why the term 'Hardcore Lite' is used as he can only deal in absolutes.

    He is also incapable or unwilling to accept or even acknowledge, that some people have only played on console. How can people who have never experianced a game, use that experience in any comparison they make?

    When the discussion is about the objective comparison between games, you're damn right I'm only dealing with facts and am not going to settle with an argument where someone attempts to dictate a game is something it's not based on "feelings" that stem from immensely limited experience in terms of the topic being discussed.

    And how can people who have never experienced a game use it in a comparison? BY RESEARCHING AND LEARNING ABOUT IT. For instance, if someone doesn't know at all about the Holocaust or the Crusades/etc, and based on that experience they attempt to say that an earthquake that killed 50 people is the most tragic event in human history - that doesn't make what the person said true merely based on the experience or knowledge they have in regards to tragic events of human loss. That person can be educated about events, and not make such a claim the next time something like that happens.

    If my colorblind friend says "the grass is brown" based on his life long experience with being colorblind - I'm going to chuckle as I correct him, and tell him the grass is green. I'm not going to say "you know, based on your experience, you're right - the grass is brown".
  • Loqtrall
    12468 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited May 11
    Trokey66 wrote: »
    Loqtrall wrote: »
    I just find it funny that some people actually think BF5 is a more "hardcore" experience. I'd love to hear what they thought of the first 5 titles in the franchise, or actual hardcore, quasi-sim shooters like Insurgency or Hell Let Loose.

    BF5 is just as much an arcadey walk in the park as any other recent title.

    This is a riminder of his first post that kicked off this whole debate to which I responded.......

    "When compared to the last 3 titles at least, it is not difficult to see why BFV is often referred to as 'Hardcore lite' by many."

    And so began the whole sorry saga where he steadfastly refused to grasp the concept of 'Hardcore Lite'.

    And it's good you brought this up. Because it reminds some here that they were the ones to respond to my comment, not the other way around - and it also allows the opportunity to point out your response should have said:

    "When compared to the last 3 titles at most"

    And there's a difference between refusing to grasp or just not grasping a concept - and actively arguing against it because I think it's a weak, opinionated concept.
  • CHAMMOND1992
    1401 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    I personally think that listening to those same "hardcore" players who claimed that BF1 was too casual (it wasn't) was what landed us here in this mess in the first place. Attrition, lightning fast TTD, no spotting coupled with bad visibility and horrendous class balance

    Give the HC Players separate HC mode. But only so that the normal mode won't be this weird hybrid that is BFV and can be fun again.
    BF1 was too casual. That game greatly narrowed the skill gap through snap on aim assist, low ceiling on aim sensitivity, slow movement, sniper sweet spots, Behemoths, Elite Classes, short fuse grenades, and flares that can't be neutralized.

    Another thing,  BF1 created this "hardcore lite" term. Only adverse thing this game did to make this game more strategical is introduce attrition for infantry, and systemic damage. Big mistake, other than that gunplay in this game felt very similar to BF3, with no suppression. BFV for the most part is typical battlefield, not "hardcore lite". You can get a pretty good grasp on how one defines "hardcore lite" through their supposed solutions for fixing a game that doesn't need fixing, and so far, that term shows an incredible exaggeration as to how far BFV dips into hardcore territory even with the "lite" attached to it.


  • Halcyon_Creed_N7
    1546 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    Hardcore is a trash mode, but I support its inclusion so that those players that enjoy garbage unbalanced gameplay can stay in their own playlist and quit trying to rebalance the whole game to their liking.

    Twitch shooting, camping, broken weapon balance, broken class balance, and a sense of superiority. The hallmarks of Hardcore.
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