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Hit Detection

Comments

  • buddyboy911
    35 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    I have worse hit detection when using "auto rotation" on. Turning it off is better for me. I do play on wifi though and so your mileage may vary.
  • mmarkweII
    2637 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    I played a few rounds earlier and noticed other players rubberbanding on my screen. I didn't save any footage, nor did I take note of specific netgraph values like servtick, latency, etc. Netgraph was on, but looked normal. Will try again in a few, and hopefully will remember to save those clips.

    PS- CQL only player. :)
  • KingTolapsium
    5061 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    I have worse hit detection when using "auto rotation" on. Turning it off is better for me. I do play on wifi though and so your mileage may vary.

    I don't think the two are related.
  • VBALL_MVP
    3076 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited March 21
    mmarkweII wrote: »
    I played a few rounds earlier and noticed other players rubberbanding on my screen. I didn't save any footage, nor did I take note of specific netgraph values like servtick, latency, etc. Netgraph was on, but looked normal. Will try again in a few, and hopefully will remember to save those clips.

    PS- CQL only player. :)

    Get better internet.....I don't want to hear you blaming KSA players too
  • mischkag
    212 postsMember, Developer
    The severe lagging videos show extreme packet loss and it may in fact be an abnormal server instance. The server center/server name would come really handy here to trace it. We do have the infrastructure to do it, but it helps to see the history of all instances then and analyze what happened. That is under the assumption it was the socket handling on the linux server instance.

    I am not promising anything btw. I am working on mitigating issues which happen on true online gameplay where not everyone has a ping <50ms. I make changes which hope improve the situation.

    As far as line of sight goes. You are ahead of the server with your movement, all other soldiers on your client are behind the server and obviously way behind their respective client. So when you walk around the corner, they wont see you in that very moment as your input has not been replicated/processed yet. That is a common problem and can only be mitigated by low latencies of all involved parties. But it does apply to everyone. The victim will have a window of reaction once he sees you and if he gets the shots off before he is dead, it will still count. Very quick side stepping can make a huge difference too. What i can do is to emphasize the importance of ping caps and make sure all netcode is handled as quick as it is possible while preserving fairness with regards to hits(who killed first, high latency players..).
    Plz also never forget. The game is a discrete simulation of 30fps visually presented at 60fps(and sometimes less). Plus there is a significant delay between input action and what you actually see on the monitor. At 30fps, we are talking about the following latencies:

    Input: Sampling happens every 33ms
    Simulation takes 33ms
    Rendering preparation takes 16.7ms
    GPU Rendering itself takes 16.7 ms
    Plus GPU->Monitor latency

    So all that plus the latency from the network. The best hit detection in the world will still have issues with regards to what you aim at and what is actually there.

    And on top of it as KingTolapsium mentioned, eyes are not your arms.
    @VBALL_MVP: I could see the weapon of the other guy. The display of hits/damage is a tiny bit ahead of the actual shooter to lower the latency of the server hit/damage information to you. You complain about held by damage issue and the fact that you are already dead on the server, this is another compromise to lower that delay. The one who shot you will have had a line of sight to you, perhaps just your elbows when side stepping, but the bullet will have travelled correctly. Not that it makes the world difference, but the accuracy of the soldier position can also be up to 1/4 inch.
    I feel your frustration though. I think it is a very corner case of what was still possible in terms of bullet hitting you but you visually not seeing him.

    @kniphtee: As far as loading times are concerned. Are you usually loading into a crowded server? Is it the same maps? Does it not happen for you on vanilla maps?
    As far as Battlepacks go, plz redirect that to some other place. I really cannot help you with that.

    @jdbelcher1998: Video is always welcome. Animation shouldnt ever desync.
    Well the server side hit detection will only counter pings over 100ms. Wont fix/improve the case with the line of sight issue. It will prevent severe shot around corner cases from high pingers.

    @misisipiRivrRat: Thx for the vid. VBALL_MVP explained it pretty well. We are aware of the Squad spawn issue and also tracking the invisible soldier issue.

    As a sidenote in general, something the NetGraph does not display is upstream packet loss. We have quite a bit of redundancy there. So i assume that is not an issue for the most part.

    @denjoga: This game was not rushed on the market. Yes there are bugs unfortunately which we missed. Also the ping distribution and partially poor connections playing the game is something we have yet got a handle on. Not having the ping in the scoreboard hides the issues.
    Nobody forces you to participate on the forum. I can assure you that you guys contributions help a lot and i am trying to fix the issues and investigate them.
    If all of you would choose to just be upset, much less could get improved and we would not know the real state of the game outside. When i play on US West servers, i do have a great experience. But that does certainly not mean everyone elsewhere has.

    @BaronVonGoon: Even 50 as a value for Extrapolation sounds like you have a quite jittery connection. That will always run into hit detection issues and small jitterings. Plz share a video with your Netgraph on. Values above 100 are really bad and other players will receive severe hit behind cover issues from your hits.
  • VBALL_MVP
    3076 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    The severe lagging videos show extreme packet loss and it may in fact be an abnormal server instance. The server center/server name would come really handy here to trace it. We do have the infrastructure to do it, but it helps to see the history of all instances then and analyze what happened. That is under the assumption it was the socket handling on the linux server instance.

    I am not promising anything btw. I am working on mitigating issues which happen on true online gameplay where not everyone has a ping <50ms. I make changes which hope improve the situation.

    As far as line of sight goes. You are ahead of the server with your movement, all other soldiers on your client are behind the server and obviously way behind their respective client. So when you walk around the corner, they wont see you in that very moment as your input has not been replicated/processed yet. That is a common problem and can only be mitigated by low latencies of all involved parties. But it does apply to everyone. The victim will have a window of reaction once he sees you and if he gets the shots off before he is dead, it will still count. Very quick side stepping can make a huge difference too. What i can do is to emphasize the importance of ping caps and make sure all netcode is handled as quick as it is possible while preserving fairness with regards to hits(who killed first, high latency players..).
    Plz also never forget. The game is a discrete simulation of 30fps visually presented at 60fps(and sometimes less). Plus there is a significant delay between input action and what you actually see on the monitor. At 30fps, we are talking about the following latencies:

    Input: Sampling happens every 33ms
    Simulation takes 33ms
    Rendering preparation takes 16.7ms
    GPU Rendering itself takes 16.7 ms
    Plus GPU->Monitor latency

    So all that plus the latency from the network. The best hit detection in the world will still have issues with regards to what you aim at and what is actually there.

    And on top of it as KingTolapsium mentioned, eyes are not your arms.
    @VBALL_MVP: I could see the weapon of the other guy. The display of hits/damage is a tiny bit ahead of the actual shooter to lower the latency of the server hit/damage information to you. You complain about held by damage issue and the fact that you are already dead on the server, this is another compromise to lower that delay. The one who shot you will have had a line of sight to you, perhaps just your elbows when side stepping, but the bullet will have travelled correctly. Not that it makes the world difference, but the accuracy of the soldier position can also be up to 1/4 inch.
    I feel your frustration though. I think it is a very corner case of what was still possible in terms of bullet hitting you but you visually not seeing him.

    @kniphtee: As far as loading times are concerned. Are you usually loading into a crowded server? Is it the same maps? Does it not happen for you on vanilla maps?
    As far as Battlepacks go, plz redirect that to some other place. I really cannot help you with that.

    @jdbelcher1998: Video is always welcome. Animation shouldnt ever desync.
    Well the server side hit detection will only counter pings over 100ms. Wont fix/improve the case with the line of sight issue. It will prevent severe shot around corner cases from high pingers.

    @misisipiRivrRat: Thx for the vid. VBALL_MVP explained it pretty well. We are aware of the Squad spawn issue and also tracking the invisible soldier issue.

    As a sidenote in general, something the NetGraph does not display is upstream packet loss. We have quite a bit of redundancy there. So i assume that is not an issue for the most part.

    @denjoga: This game was not rushed on the market. Yes there are bugs unfortunately which we missed. Also the ping distribution and partially poor connections playing the game is something we have yet got a handle on. Not having the ping in the scoreboard hides the issues.
    Nobody forces you to participate on the forum. I can assure you that you guys contributions help a lot and i am trying to fix the issues and investigate them.
    If all of you would choose to just be upset, much less could get improved and we would not know the real state of the game outside. When i play on US West servers, i do have a great experience. But that does certainly not mean everyone elsewhere has.

    @BaronVonGoon: Even 50 as a value for Extrapolation sounds like you have a quite jittery connection. That will always run into hit detection issues and small jitterings. Plz share a video with your Netgraph on. Values above 100 are really bad and other players will receive severe hit behind cover issues from your hits.

    Thanks for the feedback @mischkag. I think though, in your first reference, you may have been wanting to reference @lizzard since it was his video and complaint or @KingTolapsium since he was the one who has brought up the held by damage.

    I know there are a ton of us posting...hard to keep track of all of us.
  • buddyboy911
    35 postsMember, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    I have worse hit detection when using "auto rotation" on. Turning it off is better for me. I do play on wifi though and so your mileage may vary.

    I don't think the two are related.

    They can be actually. A higher ping player the auto rotation can lock on to the player, and its off from where that actual person is.
  • VBALL_MVP
    3076 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    I have worse hit detection when using "auto rotation" on. Turning it off is better for me. I do play on wifi though and so your mileage may vary.

    I don't think the two are related.

    They can be actually. A higher ping player the auto rotation can lock on to the player, and its off from where that actual person is.

    I'm gonna disagree on this one as well.
  • stuwooster
    277 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited March 21
    So today while having a nose at latencies i recorded this beautiful specimen.

    XjecuT9.png

    As you can see here this connection is to an EU server and by far the widest ping variations are actually coming from the hosting companies connection to the backbone on Hop 15, followed by the BT router on Hop 11 which by comparison is fairly minor.
    More observations will be underway.

    Any thoughts on this @mischkag
  • BaronVonGoon
    2725 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited March 21
    mischkag wrote: »

    @BaronVonGoon: Even 50 as a value for Extrapolation sounds like you have a quite jittery connection. That will always run into hit detection issues and small jitterings. Plz share a video with your Netgraph on. Values above 100 are really bad and other players will receive severe hit behind cover issues from your hits.

    @mischkag

    Thank you for taking the time to indulge our curiosity and answering our many questions.
    Will do I will save videos and share a compilation showing my net graph. Above 100 Ext. Offset is a daily occurrence for me. It's possible that apartment building internet bandwidth restrictions may be the cause.

    In the meantime, I have a screenshot of my net graph from yesterday:
    https://flic.kr/p/SyAzQf

    Kind of odd, it's logical to think that having good latency would translate to having a good Extr Offset.
  • jdbelcher1998
    531 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member

    In the meantime, I have a screenshot of my net graph from yesterday:
    https://flic.kr/p/SU51Qu

    Kind of odd, it's logical to think that having good latency would translate to having a good Extr Offset.
    Remember the extr offset will jump up in the spawn screen—I see the deploy button there in that image.

  • VBALL_MVP
    3076 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    mischkag wrote: »

    @BaronVonGoon: Even 50 as a value for Extrapolation sounds like you have a quite jittery connection. That will always run into hit detection issues and small jitterings. Plz share a video with your Netgraph on. Values above 100 are really bad and other players will receive severe hit behind cover issues from your hits.

    @mischkag

    Thank you for taking the time to indulge our curiosity and answering our many questions.
    Will do I will save videos and share a compilation showing my net graph. Above 100 Ext. Offset is a daily occurrence for me. It's possible that apartment building internet bandwidth restrictions may be the cause.

    In the meantime, I have a screenshot of my net graph from yesterday:
    https://flic.kr/p/SU51Qu

    Kind of odd, it's logical to think that having good latency would translate to having a good Extr Offset.

    That's in spawn screen, this will happen and is normal since part of why it happens (if I recall) is due to spawn screen updates at 10hz not 30hz. Mischakag explained this a few pages back.
  • KingTolapsium
    5061 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    @mischkag

    Thanks for the answer, I didn't think it would change the line of sight issue.

    I realize impeding movement around corners, or disregarding high ping corner jump shots would translate horribly on the user's end, and would not be the right way to address this.

    Could it be possible to delay showing the high ping player the character models of other players until it is also possible for the other players to see him? For instance, if I had a ping of 300ms, it would take 150ms to show me the enemies I'm trying to get the jump on, this would make the situation much more fair in a way that would gradually impede very high ping, over average high ping.

    Would this be a feasible solution?
  • xBigOrangeHeadx
    165 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Is it possible for client side extrapolation to simply not happen? I mean this in the context of invisible soldiers and players that aren't on my screen until the killcam. When this happens it's as if you encountered a jittery player, extrapolation was needed but simply didn't happen, then the player's info comes down from the server and bingo he's right in front of you and shooting you and you don't stand a chance. I'm not talking about players who suddenly appear through spawning into the game.

    The guys I regularly squad up with must exclaim "he wasn't even there" more than anything else.
  • jdbelcher1998
    531 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    Just noticed this from yesterday's CTE patch drop:
    Created new widget to show player ping when ping exceeds soldier frame time history. (Updated in settings default to 0.1 which is 100 ping). Created new option in gameplay advanced to turn this option on/off.

    From here: https://www.reddit.com/r/battlefield_live/comments/60j0zt/march_20th_update/

    @mischkag how much of your work for the next patch (in your development cycle) is now live in latest CTE patch? And, assuming console gets CTE between now and then, will we be able to try out in-game latency on scoreboard, etc., in this patch?
  • kniphtee
    115 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited March 21
    @mischkag

    @kniphtee: As far as loading times are concerned. Are you usually loading into a crowded server? Is it the same maps? Does it not happen for you on vanilla maps?
    As far as Battlepacks go, plz redirect that to some other place. I really cannot help you with that.

    reply - Long loading times are on the dlc maps - both frontline and cq maps with a lot of white screen and most are crowded however this problem was not common on the vanilla prior to the patch on crowded servers. Also, the battlepack screen is very sluggish during game loads with several of them opening and I have no idea if I received a skin or not.
    This may or not be in your realm but over this past weekend and yesterday - the game has frozen multiple times on the dlc maps - 2x on soy sauce, 1x on rupture, 3x on Verdun and lost track on nade spam...err...Fort - I understand being on console and log jams with frame rates and such however up too this weekend I had not had the game freeze once even on the dlc early access run - hope it's not sliding toward the bf4 blow up the xbox game freezes - plz no.
    Understandable about the battlepacks, just griping at the randomness and mocking it.
    Thank you for all the work you're putting in and keep it up.
  • mischkag
    212 postsMember, Developer
    @KingTolapsium: If i would to delay the low ping player character to show to the high ping one, this means that once he would hit you, its been even longer since you have actually been there. This would multiply the shot around corner issue by a lot. With server side hit detection, the guy would need to lead differently for every player even more. Dont think thats a good solution. Well i could add some time, say 50ms for pings over 100. But things in the gameworld could get really out of sync this way. Not feeling so good about that solution.


    @BanyanTree: Without extrapolation the game would constantly show non smooth movement and all soldiers would jitter over your screen. This would make hitting them very difficult. No player will get to an extrapolated position and shoot from there. The shooting will happen in conjunction with the actual physical position of the player.

    @jdbelcher1998: Most of it yes. You will see the Server side hit detection running, just not on consoles yet :(
  • KingTolapsium
    5061 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    @mischkag

    Blast, tricky issue. Worth testing that delay, but 50ms isn't going to change much. I'm guessing you can't differentiate obscured enemies and those who are not? Guh, that certainly makes my suggestion "messy" to say the least.

     

    I'll keep thinking on it, any slight improvement in this area would go a long way.
  • jdbelcher1998
    531 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    @jdbelcher1998: Most of it yes. You will see the Server side hit detection running, just not on consoles yet :(
    Awesome. I'm patient. :)
  • BaronVonGoon
    2725 postsMember, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited March 21
    BanyanTree wrote: »
    Is it possible for client side extrapolation to simply not happen? .

    That definitely would completely break the game for both side. The network relationship always dictates both sides operate at different time in the World. If you remove the mechanic that smoothes out that difference in timing, both players will have a really really unplayable time with no hits registering at all.
    Just noticed this from yesterday's CTE patch drop:
    Created new widget to show player ping when ping exceeds soldier frame time history. (Updated in settings default to 0.1 which is 100 ping). Created new option in gameplay advanced to turn this option on/off.

    From here: https://www.reddit.com/r/battlefield_live/comments/60j0zt/march_20th_update/

    Anyone care to shed some light on this. I'm assuming this is like PC, ping values for each player. This wouldn't be useful for official servers (May even invite hate mail) but is useful for rented servers since you can kick/ban the high pinger.
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