Hit Detection

Comments

  • lizzard
    985 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    oof14346 wrote: »
    @mischkag


    What are the implications for rate of fire, time to kill, and damage per second when you take into account the tickrate and server tick?

    How much of an effect does tick rate have on this hypothetical 1v1:

    -I am using the Auto Revolver 163 RPM.
    -the enemy is using the Lewis gun 480 RPM.
    -Distance is 5 metres.
    -Server tick is 10 and Tickrate is 30.

    In this scenario, I have the better time to kill and damage per second. But his gun has better rate of fire and, therefore, his shots will require less frames to register so his lethal damage may get to me faster than my auto revolver. Does this mean I'm better off using a sidearm with a faster RPM, like the Frommer Stop? If so, it kind of defeats the purpose of using a high damage sidearm like the revolvers if their damage is not going to register in time.

    I can provide video clips showing low RPM weapons on occasion losing to high RPM weapons even though at these ranges the low RPM weapons should win. I mean ofcourse sometimes aim can be off but aim is not the issue, sometimes you are right on target but I feel the tick rate and server tick do have an effect on hit registration in high RPM vs low RPM fights.

     

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that high RPM weapons suffered because some bullets would hit between tick rates (or something like that). It's why you would empty half your clip to down a single enemy sometimes.

    As for the low vs high RPM fight, I don't think it's as simple as you state. If we take the assault weapons, the Automatico is designed to win close quarter fights, but suffer as the range increases.

    When I play assault with the automatico. And turn around a corner, and run in to an suport player with the Lewis gun.
    There is my reaction time, about 200-300ms. And my ping, 30-60ms.

    I cant even count the times I've lost that kind of gunfights in bf1.. A fast fireing wepon with good hipfigher accuracy. Loosing against a slowfiering support wepon, with really bad hipfigher accuracy...

    Those issues accumulated with the gameplay mechanics. Is what makes bf1 stay in the shelf to the next patch! I simply can not play bf1 in the state it is right now..
  • Michael_Seaman
    461 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    lizzard wrote: »
    oof14346 wrote: »
    @mischkag


    What are the implications for rate of fire, time to kill, and damage per second when you take into account the tickrate and server tick?

    How much of an effect does tick rate have on this hypothetical 1v1:

    -I am using the Auto Revolver 163 RPM.
    -the enemy is using the Lewis gun 480 RPM.
    -Distance is 5 metres.
    -Server tick is 10 and Tickrate is 30.

    In this scenario, I have the better time to kill and damage per second. But his gun has better rate of fire and, therefore, his shots will require less frames to register so his lethal damage may get to me faster than my auto revolver. Does this mean I'm better off using a sidearm with a faster RPM, like the Frommer Stop? If so, it kind of defeats the purpose of using a high damage sidearm like the revolvers if their damage is not going to register in time.

    I can provide video clips showing low RPM weapons on occasion losing to high RPM weapons even though at these ranges the low RPM weapons should win. I mean ofcourse sometimes aim can be off but aim is not the issue, sometimes you are right on target but I feel the tick rate and server tick do have an effect on hit registration in high RPM vs low RPM fights.

     

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that high RPM weapons suffered because some bullets would hit between tick rates (or something like that). It's why you would empty half your clip to down a single enemy sometimes.

    As for the low vs high RPM fight, I don't think it's as simple as you state. If we take the assault weapons, the Automatico is designed to win close quarter fights, but suffer as the range increases.

    When I play assault with the automatico. And turn around a corner, and run in to an suport player with the Lewis gun.
    There is my reaction time, about 200-300ms. And my ping, 30-60ms.

    I cant even count the times I've lost that kind of gunfights in bf1.. A fast fireing wepon with good hipfigher accuracy. Loosing against a slowfiering support wepon, with really bad hipfigher accuracy...

    Those issues accumulated with the gameplay mechanics. Is what makes bf1 stay in the shelf to the next patch! I simply can not play bf1 in the state it is right now..

    I can attest to that. There have been so many times (more often then not) that I've lost face to face with support class when I've shot first with either a higher ROF gun or a higher damage/accuracy gun. I believe it's just the excessive suppression mechanic that causes this. Unfortunately, I don't think they are going to tone down the suppression, so you may not ever play the game again.
  • mischkag
    214 postsMember, Developer DICE
    @em1LL77: Maybe its me having a bad day, but what is wrong in the video and what do u exactly mean by 'hits are miscalculated'?

    @BaronVonGoon: Bullet hit detection is performed at full framerate, but that does not mean they fly faster, just the hit is potentially registered earlier. So as the firing rate determines how quick a new bullet is spawned, the hit detection is based on the bullets velocity and not firing rate of the weapon. There is much more to a weapon than just rpm (spead, velocity, damage, falloff...).

    @lizzard: I dont see how that is the games fault? The weapons are setup in a way mimicing the real weapon. What should change in your opinion to make it feel better for you?
  • oJU5T1No
    901 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    edited March 2017
    Ive lost plenty of gun fights mag dumping my lmg into players faces the trouble is this games so out sync, on my screen ive seen a player before he has seen me start unloading my lmg into his face then 3-4 hits in my bullets will no longer register even though my gun is still firing or I will just get frozen to the spot then a lump of damage will hit me from the player I was shooting at and then my 1 frame death. The trouble is on the high latency players screen and on the server the high latency player was actually shooting me first I shot him second got a couple of shots off then died to him, a completely different situation to what is being displayed on my screen even worse at the point the high latency player was standing in front of my face on his screen on my screen he won't even have even come around the corner yet. It is complete BS how am I expected to compete with players who can kill or start dealing damage to me while there character models lag 500ms+ behind there actual position and actions server side.

  • mischkag
    214 postsMember, Developer DICE
    Well i am happy once the next patch is in your hands that you will get to see the actual in game latency. I would assume you will be surprised how many high pingers are actually around. The time the high pinger sees you on his screen and can shoot is the same you have. As his weapon firing inputs might be under way on his long latency connection, you have a shorter line and given the same reaction time, you will kill him first. Server side hit detection will solve a lot of things and certainly ping caps would(will), but as mind boggling as this is, you actually have the same chance of killing.
  • BaronVonGoon
    6639 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    Well i am happy once the next patch is in your hands that you will get to see the actual in game latency. I would assume you will be surprised how many high pingers are actually around. The time the high pinger sees you on his screen and can shoot is the same you have. As his weapon firing inputs might be under way on his long latency connection, you have a shorter line and given the same reaction time, you will kill him first. Server side hit detection will solve a lot of things and certainly ping caps would(will), but as mind boggling as this is, you actually have the same chance of killing.

    I am very excited to see the improvements in the coming updates and I as well as many here truly appreciate your participation in this thread.
  • stuwooster
    279 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    Well i am happy once the next patch is in your hands that you will get to see the actual in game latency. I would assume you will be surprised how many high pingers are actually around. The time the high pinger sees you on his screen and can shoot is the same you have. As his weapon firing inputs might be under way on his long latency connection, you have a shorter line and given the same reaction time, you will kill him first. Server side hit detection will solve a lot of things and certainly ping caps would(will), but as mind boggling as this is, you actually have the same chance of killing.

    Been looking forward to this, shame i wont be around to see it :-(

  • oof14346
    954 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    I disappear for a few hours and...did I miss something?
  • lizzard
    985 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield, Battlefield 1 Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    @em1LL77: Maybe its me having a bad day, but what is wrong in the video and what do u exactly mean by 'hits are miscalculated'?

    @BaronVonGoon: Bullet hit detection is performed at full framerate, but that does not mean they fly faster, just the hit is potentially registered earlier. So as the firing rate determines how quick a new bullet is spawned, the hit detection is based on the bullets velocity and not firing rate of the weapon. There is much more to a weapon than just rpm (spead, velocity, damage, falloff...).

    @lizzard: I dont see how that is the games fault? The weapons are setup in a way mimicing the real weapon. What should change in your opinion to make it feel better for you?

    How? Ööömmmhh..

    Automatico = hig rate of fire, close quarters wepon. Designed to be affective in close quarters combat, effective and accurate while hipfighering!
    How would I enjoy being killed by a slow lumping guy, with a heavy lmg with low rate of fire and horrible hipfigher accuracy!?

    Face a guy. Hipfigher smg in his face! Instantly die.. How is that possible to be the design of the game?

    Or the times we fire a sniper at players face and gets no hit. Or a 79 damage hit!?

    Just as enoying as al the times we fire that sniper and misses by 1 meter.. And still we drop the enemy with a headshot!
    What should we think?

    One game is going quite good. Then teambalance and new game.
    Suddenly every one in the squad starts to go in to rage mode.
    No one can kill the enemies.
    Cant Walt over smal objects.
    Everyone complaining about that there bullets wont do damage to the targets.
    Rocket gun straight to enemy players suddenly do 29-59 damage.
    Grenades blows up in the same room as the enemy, and wont damage them.
    Enemies spawning behind you.
    Enemies spawning on dead teammates.
    Granades bouncing back when thrown out a open window.
    Flare gun setting you on fire while you try to use it.
    Enemies strafing left and right unnaturaly fast, almost like teleporting.

    Did everyone go in to a noob mode during the new round?
    Or did something happen to the server or the game?


    The rest of the issues doesn't belong in this thread, and you dont have control ower that part. But they sure doesn't make the gameplay more fun or less frustrating!
    (bad aim mechanics)
    (Aimassist)
    (fps drops)
    (Strange teambalance)


    Going to let the game rest, until the changes you made are in affect, and the chenges to the aim mechanics that jjju have made.

    Its probably to late to make bf1 really fun. But it may be your efforts that saves the next battlefield game.
  • BaronVonGoon
    6639 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    lizzard wrote: »
    mischkag wrote: »
    @em1LL77: Maybe its me having a bad day, but what is wrong in the video and what do u exactly mean by 'hits are miscalculated'?

    @BaronVonGoon: Bullet hit detection is performed at full framerate, but that does not mean they fly faster, just the hit is potentially registered earlier. So as the firing rate determines how quick a new bullet is spawned, the hit detection is based on the bullets velocity and not firing rate of the weapon. There is much more to a weapon than just rpm (spead, velocity, damage, falloff...).

    @lizzard: I dont see how that is the games fault? The weapons are setup in a way mimicing the real weapon. What should change in your opinion to make it feel better for you?

    How? Ööömmmhh..

    Automatico = hig rate of fire, close quarters wepon. Designed to be affective in close quarters combat, effective and accurate while hipfighering!
    How would I enjoy being killed by a slow lumping guy, with a heavy lmg with low rate of fire and horrible hipfigher accuracy!?

    He's not the weapon designer. Why don't you ask Kertz that question?
  • VBALL_MVP
    6177 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    edited March 2017
    oJU5T1No wrote: »
    Ive lost plenty of gun fights mag dumping my lmg into players faces the trouble is this games so out sync, on my screen ive seen a player before he has seen me start unloading my lmg into his face then 3-4 hits in my bullets will no longer register even though my gun is still firing or I will just get frozen to the spot then a lump of damage will hit me from the player I was shooting at and then my 1 frame death. The trouble is on the high latency players screen and on the server the high latency player was actually shooting me first I shot him second got a couple of shots off then died to him, a completely different situation to what is being displayed on my screen even worse at the point the high latency player was standing in front of my face on his screen on my screen he won't even have even come around the corner yet. It is complete BS how am I expected to compete with players who can kill or start dealing damage to me while there character models lag 500ms+ behind there actual position and actions server side.

    Are you sure? Only reason why I question is last night I was grinding through to get the chauchat and using the Lewis gun suppressive...I was getting beat in every engagement: I had the jump, I hit him more, I was behind, I was at medium range..etc. I couldn't kill anything...hit markers everywhere yet I was shooting marshmallows.

    The thing is, I got frustrated and went back to the BAR, every person that was owning me now was being rekt. I was killing people easily again. When I finally decided to look at the spread and damage model, it was easy to see why I was doing so bad.....the Lewis suppressive sucks!

    Point I'm trying to make is we tend to think all guns have very similar damage models and spreads. I could have easily blamed the game or lag or whatever but in reality I was playing the game and using the gun as if it was a BAR and in the end that's why I was getting WTF moments......sometimes we all try to push weapons beyond their effectiveness and it's the true reason why some of the "unexplainable and unfair" deaths happened.

    @lizzard you are assuming that the lmg player is hip firing. How do you not know he is not ADS right at your head? All it takes for most guns is a head shot followed by a body shot and you're toast.
  • Crimsonforce66
    44 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    edited March 2017
    This is what happend to me 3 days ago if you look at the support laying on the ground how many of my shots just dont register. :( xboxdvr.com/gamer/zardon1/video/28961722#t=30

    And this second 1 idk if it was server lag (no symbols) or if bayonet charge is bugged or it was an invisible player but......
    xboxdvr.com/gamer/zardon1/video/28961822#t=26

    BTW i play on xbox one oceanic server with a wired connection, most of the time i have to keep trying to find a stable server because of random lag spikes ect.
  • lionking7001
    219 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    @Crimsonforce66 Two good videos of what happens pretty often. Moore of the first one than the second one.

    @mischkag The previously stated under 4% with a higher ping than 100 ms is that not right? For me it feels moore like 25% and that my K/D I suffering bad in this game. Some of my opponents feels invincible no matter what I do. Frustrating!
  • KingTolapsium
    5491 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    Well i am happy once the next patch is in your hands that you will get to see the actual in game latency. I would assume you will be surprised how many high pingers are actually around. The time the high pinger sees you on his screen and can shoot is the same you have. As his weapon firing inputs might be under way on his long latency connection, you have a shorter line and given the same reaction time, you will kill him first. Server side hit detection will solve a lot of things and certainly ping caps would(will), but as mind boggling as this is, you actually have the same chance of killing.

    I know I have been killed by bullets before the corresponding player was visibly around the corner, it sounds like you have attempted to address this with changes already.

    Does the fairness not face a slight reduction if there are a significant amount of misses involved?

    If a high ping player and low ping player walk around a corner at medium long range and miss the first seven shots. The shots are close misses so suppression is inherited, the low ping player is put into a supressed state sooner in his firing, making his shots less accurate than the high ping player.

    This affects long range SIGNIFICANTLY, imo. If a low ping sniper shoots just second against a high ping sniper, he faces first shot suppression, which could easily make him miss, while a high ping sniper in the same situation will face no suppression and have a longer time to aim and shoot.

    Not sure what could be done to avert this issue while still keeping high ping players in the round, maybe delay the suppression from high ping shots?
  • em1LL77
    77 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE Member
    mischkag wrote: »
    @em1LL77: Maybe its me having a bad day, but what is wrong in the video and what do u exactly mean by 'hits are miscalculated'?

    @BaronVonGoon: Bullet hit detection is performed at full framerate, but that does not mean they fly faster, just the hit is potentially registered earlier. So as the firing rate determines how quick a new bullet is spawned, the hit detection is based on the bullets velocity and not firing rate of the weapon. There is much more to a weapon than just rpm (spead, velocity, damage, falloff...).

    @lizzard: I dont see how that is the games fault? The weapons are setup in a way mimicing the real weapon. What should change in your opinion to make it feel better for you?

    the problem in my video is the first guy i shoot at...he's at aproximately 19-20m (see flag distance) .so,the automatico storm does like 17-18 damage at that distance,i put 20 bullets in the guy at first burst from which one,is a head shoot,only 5 register although i,m pretty much on target(he should be already dead),and after that he turns back after he was 88 damaged from the first encounter i need anothe 9 bullets(3 rgistered and he s a few meters closer this time) from which,one is a hs again in order to kill him(100% on target this time)...if you think that is normal,then i rest my case in here...
  • nefariouscheat
    557 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, Battlefield V Member
    edited March 2017
    Are people ever happy with the BF net code? BF1 netcode is much better then BF3... And so much better than BF2 and BC2... rofl.
    Also it's 9 of the 10 times a connection problem why you miss shots... Either your targets connection or yours. Not the fault of the hit detection.
  • jdbelcher1998
    587 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    VBALL_MVP wrote: »
    oJU5T1No wrote: »
    Ive lost plenty of gun fights mag dumping my lmg into players faces the trouble is this games so out sync, on my screen ive seen a player before he has seen me start unloading my lmg into his face then 3-4 hits in my bullets will no longer register even though my gun is still firing or I will just get frozen to the spot then a lump of damage will hit me from the player I was shooting at and then my 1 frame death. The trouble is on the high latency players screen and on the server the high latency player was actually shooting me first I shot him second got a couple of shots off then died to him, a completely different situation to what is being displayed on my screen even worse at the point the high latency player was standing in front of my face on his screen on my screen he won't even have even come around the corner yet. It is complete BS how am I expected to compete with players who can kill or start dealing damage to me while there character models lag 500ms+ behind there actual position and actions server side.

    Are you sure? Only reason why I question is last night I was grinding through to get the chauchat and using the Lewis gun suppressive...I was getting beat in every engagement: I had the jump, I hit him more, I was behind, I was at medium range..etc. I couldn't kill anything...hit markers everywhere yet I was shooting marshmallows.

    The thing is, I got frustrated and went back to the BAR, every person that was owning me now was being rekt. I was killing people easily again. When I finally decided to look at the spread and damage model, it was easy to see why I was doing so bad.....the Lewis suppressive sucks!

    Point I'm trying to make is we tend to think all guns have very similar damage models and spreads. I could have easily blamed the game or lag or whatever but in reality I was playing the game and using the gun as if it was a BAR and in the end that's why I was getting WTF moments......sometimes we all try to push weapons beyond their effectiveness and it's the true reason why some of the "unexplainable and unfair" deaths happened.
    This is pretty much my identical experience when I was getting that assignment, hahaha. Not a big fan of the Lewis Suppressive. Had to figure it out to complete the assignment but I doubt I'll use it again. The BAR on the other hand...
  • VBALL_MVP
    6177 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    This is what happend to me 3 days ago if you look at the support laying on the ground how many of my shots just dont register. :( xboxdvr.com/gamer/zardon1/video/28961722#t=30

    And this second 1 idk if it was server lag (no symbols) or if bayonet charge is bugged or it was an invisible player but......
    xboxdvr.com/gamer/zardon1/video/28961822#t=26

    BTW i play on xbox one oceanic server with a wired connection, most of the time i have to keep trying to find a stable server because of random lag spikes ect.

    I have had that first video happen a lot to me. It's like when you are on the ground there is an invisible wall in front of people...especially on uneven ground.

    My opinion its a hit reg issue, and not lag, cause I've had it happen against my clanmates who are local to me.

    Second one plain sucks. That's that whole invisible thing DICE has been working on.

    @jdbelcher1998 I now check out gun stats first before grinding, it really takes the rage out when you understand a guns capabilities and limits.
  • jdbelcher1998
    587 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, CTE, BF1IncursionsAlpha, Battlefield V Member
    VBALL_MVP wrote: »

    @jdbelcher1998 I now check out gun stats first before grinding, it really takes the rage out when you understand a guns capabilities and limits.
    Yeah, definitely a good tip. I already knew I hated the Lewis Suppressive before this so it was all about figuring out how to make it work to my advantage and bend my playstyle to its strengths. Still, doubt I'll use it again! :)
  • VBALL_MVP
    6177 postsMember, Battlefield 3, Battlefield 4, Battlefield Hardline, Battlefield, Battlefield 1, Battlefield V Member
    VBALL_MVP wrote: »

    @jdbelcher1998 I now check out gun stats first before grinding, it really takes the rage out when you understand a guns capabilities and limits.
    Yeah, definitely a good tip. I already knew I hated the Lewis Suppressive before this so it was all about figuring out how to make it work to my advantage and bend my playstyle to its strengths. Still, doubt I'll use it again! :)

    Yeah that gun is in my permanent ban list.
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